What is the listing for varieties showing now? Could somebody please post a fresh screencap?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I submitted a 4343 (now known as 4342) which is the old number for the generically graded 1849/8 without full attribution. It is an FS-301 OVD.
It was in the encapsulation stage and I checked the cert. It actually came up with the new and correct attribution as an
1849/6 FS-301 OVERDATE which is 38738. However in the registry it's referred to as an RPD even though on the
cert verification page it shows as OVERDATE. Now today, it went backwards to the crackout stage. I called customer
service and they knew nothing about it and couldn't help.
I simply don't understand why this is so complicated. On the cert verification it shows this FS-301 as:
"PCGS # 38738 (Variety of: 4343)"
How can there be a variety of a variety? In my opinion all 1849 varieties are varieties of 4341, the straight up 1849.
4343 doesn't show in either the MAJOR or COMPLETE variety sets. In the MAJOR set 1849/6 doesn't have a PCGS#,
it's just blank where the number should be.
In my opinion, the registry entries should look like this:
1849………................PCGS# 4341
1849/6…..FS-301….…PCGS# 38738 – ( cert verification page should show variety of 4341)
1849/6…..FS-302….…PCGS# 145432 – (cert verification page should show variety of 4341)
The two varieties should both be in the MAJOR variety set AND the COMPLETE variety set. 4342 & 4343 shouldn't exist. If PCGS insists upon keeping 4342 as a generic number for 1849/6, then it absolutely DOES NOT belong in the COMPLETE variety set because your 4342 would be a duplicate of one of the other two varieties.
AND to add to the fire in the registry they have the FS-301 listed as an RPD and FS-302 as an "Overdate". Why overdate is not abbreviated as OVD I don't understand.
I really don't understand why this is so complicated. It's all over the place.
Please excuse my use of bold and caps. It's not like I'm frustrated or anything.....
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I see that set has similar issues at present, like:
1848 Large Date 4339
1848 Large Date FS-301 38737
[These are the same die variety]
Hopefully in 2-3 years, there will be a new and actually complete reference on the Liberty Seated Half Dime die varieties.
Current list is about 600 varieties, compared to 98 in this PCGS Registry Set, which is basically a Red Book set.
So it should at least help to create a registry set like the LS Dimes which has 155 varieties at present.
1849 H10C (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 4341
1849/6 H10C 9 Over Widely Placed 6 (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 4342
1849/6 H10C (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 4343
1849/6 H10C Overdate FS-302 (001.55) (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 145432 (The same as PCGS #: 4342 (Wide 6))
1849/6 H10C Overdate FS-301 (001.5) (Regular Strike) PCGS #:38738 (The same as PCGS #: 4343 (Close 6))
In MY opinion, there are three total designated by PCGS; the 1849 H10C (PCGS # 4341), 1849/6 Widely Placed 6 (PCGS # 4342) and 1849/6 (Close 6) (PCGS # 4343). The Cherry-Picker varieties are just duplicates of the 4342 and 4343. I still don’t think that they got it right, just more confusion.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Well.......The third line is still wrong. #4343 should say "9 Over Close 6." Let me work on that.
There are two different dies that qualify for the #4342 listing, the V-1 and the V-2 (also known as V-6 in the late die state, but none of the grading services recognize it). Only the V-2 qualifies as the CPG FS-302, which is the PCGS #145432.
So, #4342 is NOT the same as #145432, but #4343 IS the same as #38738. Got that? For my next trick I will explain how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I tried to get both the CPG and PCGS to recognize the V-1 die with separate numbers, which might have helped clarify all this, but neither party wished to do so. PCGS cannot do so unless CPG does first, and Bill Fivaz is not interested.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Well.......The third line is still wrong. #4343 should say "9 Over Close 6." Let me work on that.
There are two different dies that qualify for the #4342 listing, the V-1 and the V-2 (also known as V-6 in the late die state, but none of the grading services recognize it). Only the V-2 qualifies as the CPG FS-302, which is the PCGS #145432.
So, #4342 is NOT the same as #145432, but #4343 IS the same as #38738. Got that? For my next trick I will explain how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I tried to get both the CPG and PCGS to recognize the V-1 die with separate numbers, which might have helped clarify all this, but neither party wished to do so. PCGS cannot do so unless CPG does first, and Bill Fivaz is not interested.
TD
As far as Liberty Seated Half Dimes are concerned, I thought PCGS only recognized the FS numbers as stated in the CPG? If that is correct, they why are they using non-FS designations such as "Widely Placed 6"? Here's their list. The Liberty Seated Half Dimes fall under the umbrella of the last line. No half dimes are on the noted exclusion list.
"What varieties does PCGS recognize? PCGS recognizes the following varieties:"
Half Cents (1793-1857) by Cohen numbers
Large Cents (1793-1814) by Sheldon numbers
Large Cents (1816-1857) by Newcomb numbers
Half Dimes (1794-1837) by Logan/McCloskey numbers
Dimes (1796-1837) by John Reich Society numbers
NEW Liberty Seated Dimes (1837-1891) by Fortin numbers
Quarter Dollars (1796-1838) by Browning numbers
Half Dollars (1794-1836) by Overton numbers
Capped Bust Reeded Edge Half Dollars (1836 – 1839) by the Dick Graham (GR) numbers
Liberty Seated Half Dollars by Wiley-Bugert (WB) number
Dollars (1794-1804) by Bolender and Bowers/Borckardt numbers
Morgan and Peace Dollars (1878-1935) by VAM numbers (Includes TOP 100, HOT 50, and Hit List 40; see list)
Gold Quarter Eagles, Half Eagles and Eagles (1795-1834) by Bass/Dannreuther numbers
Fivaz-Stanton Varieties from the Cherrypickers Guide, Fourth Edition Vol. II and Fifth Edition Vol. I (see list for exclusions)
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@CaptHenway said:
I tried to get both the CPG and PCGS to recognize the V-1 die with separate numbers, which might have helped clarify all this, but neither party wished to do so. PCGS cannot do so unless CPG does first, and Bill Fivaz is not interested.
TD
Forgot to mention in my above post that ultimately this being the case, yes, a separate number would've settled everything.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The registry updated. No doubt thanks to CaptHenway! I also e-mailed and I received a nice response to let me know these changes were made. Here are some screenshots.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@ms70 said:
The registry updated. No doubt thanks to CaptHenway! I also e-mailed and I received a nice response to let me know these changes were made. Here are some screenshots.
Where is the “Over Close 6” 4343?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@ms70 said:
The registry updated. No doubt thanks to CaptHenway! I also e-mailed and I received a nice response to let me know these changes were made. Here are some screenshots.
Where is the “Over Close 6” 4343?
That is not there. I assume because it's the same as FS-301 so it would be a duplicate.
These screen shots are the "Complete" variety set. The "Major variety set has a slot for 1849/6 but no PCGS# at all next to it.
Personally I don't agree with an "optional" coin that's not calculated into the set being included in a set..... because then it's not really part of the set. But I guess this is what got decided on.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
So if you have an 1849/6 Close 6 and you send it in as an overdate you automatically get the 38738 designation with an FS number, even though you did not pay for an FS-number, but if you send in an 1849/6 Wide 6 as an overdate you get the 4342 designation without the FS number?
Who's on First?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
So if you have an 1849/6 Close 6 and you send it in as an overdate you automatically get the 38738 designation with an FS number, even though you did not pay for an FS-number, but if you send in an 1849/6 Wide 6 as an overdate you get the 4342 designation without the FS number?
Who's on First?
The FS-301 that I just had graded was purchased in a 4343 slab. When I sent it in I taped a note to the slab explicitly saying I wanted FULL attribution as 38378 (FS-301). I did pay the attribution fee.
As you can see in the screen shot above of it's verification page, PCGS says it's a variety of itself.
How is that even possible?
I don't know the answer to either of your questions, but I will likely figure out who's on first before the other question.....
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I really wish that whoever is mucking up this one date of a coin would pay attention to this thread and their contributors for a subject matter expert. It's not that hard to understand among specialists.
I dont know is on third...
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The generic entry for 1849/6 is still in the "MAJOR" set with no assigned PCGS# to that slot. It has not changed, so I assume anyone pursuing that set with any 1849/6 variety would have that slot filled.
This is today's screenshot of the COMPLETE Variety set.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Nice coin.
It definitely has the V-4 / FS-301 obverse.
I don't see the crack at the left ribbon and stem, or at R, so I think it may be a V-5.
Although with the toning, those cracks could be harder to spot from a photo (even a nice one like this).
I don't see the V-5 reverse cracks, either (they are very light, though).
I see some die file marks above ES and OF which may help - will check with my photo collection when I'm back at home.
I finally got around to sending in my two circulated 1849 9 Over Widely Placed 6 H10C, and they came through this time, PCGS # 4342. In April 2019, the attributor room said that they did not see it and sent them out unattributed.
These two were reholder / variety attribution submissions, along with some other crossovers, so the certification numbers did not change.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Comments
Wow ..... a case study in itself. Thank you all for sharing your keen eye and smart mind
Hopefully our host will use the experience of these variety pick up points for attribution and solely not The Cherry Pickers Guide.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Based upon the progress being made, do you think it is safe to resubmit for variety attribution for 1849/6 H10C Over Widely Spaced 6 PCGS # 4342?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
What is the listing for varieties showing now? Could somebody please post a fresh screencap?
Nothing has changed.
Ready for some confusion?
I submitted a 4343 (now known as 4342) which is the old number for the generically graded 1849/8 without full attribution. It is an FS-301 OVD.
It was in the encapsulation stage and I checked the cert. It actually came up with the new and correct attribution as an
1849/6 FS-301 OVERDATE which is 38738. However in the registry it's referred to as an RPD even though on the
cert verification page it shows as OVERDATE. Now today, it went backwards to the crackout stage. I called customer
service and they knew nothing about it and couldn't help.
I simply don't understand why this is so complicated. On the cert verification it shows this FS-301 as:
"PCGS # 38738 (Variety of: 4343)"
How can there be a variety of a variety? In my opinion all 1849 varieties are varieties of 4341, the straight up 1849.
4343 doesn't show in either the MAJOR or COMPLETE variety sets. In the MAJOR set 1849/6 doesn't have a PCGS#,
it's just blank where the number should be.
In my opinion, the registry entries should look like this:
1849………................PCGS# 4341
1849/6…..FS-301….…PCGS# 38738 – ( cert verification page should show variety of 4341)
1849/6…..FS-302….…PCGS# 145432 – (cert verification page should show variety of 4341)
The two varieties should both be in the MAJOR variety set AND the COMPLETE variety set. 4342 & 4343 shouldn't exist. If PCGS insists upon keeping 4342 as a generic number for 1849/6, then it absolutely DOES NOT belong in the COMPLETE variety set because your 4342 would be a duplicate of one of the other two varieties.
AND to add to the fire in the registry they have the FS-301 listed as an RPD and FS-302 as an "Overdate". Why overdate is not abbreviated as OVD I don't understand.
I really don't understand why this is so complicated. It's all over the place.
Please excuse my use of bold and caps. It's not like I'm frustrated or anything.....
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Why would someone shell out an additional $18 for cherry picker variety numbers (FS) when the major variety has no fee?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
>
It comes down to which game you want to play. I'm attempting complete varieties.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I see that set has similar issues at present, like:
[These are the same die variety]
Hopefully in 2-3 years, there will be a new and actually complete reference on the Liberty Seated Half Dime die varieties.
Current list is about 600 varieties, compared to 98 in this PCGS Registry Set, which is basically a Red Book set.
So it should at least help to create a registry set like the LS Dimes which has 155 varieties at present.
Based off of the 1849/6 H10C (Regular Strike) page, there are five “Show Related Coins and Varieties (5)” https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1849-6-h10c/4343
1849 H10C (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 4341
1849/6 H10C 9 Over Widely Placed 6 (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 4342
1849/6 H10C (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 4343
1849/6 H10C Overdate FS-302 (001.55) (Regular Strike) PCGS #: 145432 (The same as PCGS #: 4342 (Wide 6))
1849/6 H10C Overdate FS-301 (001.5) (Regular Strike) PCGS #:38738 (The same as PCGS #: 4343 (Close 6))
In MY opinion, there are three total designated by PCGS; the 1849 H10C (PCGS # 4341), 1849/6 Widely Placed 6 (PCGS # 4342) and 1849/6 (Close 6) (PCGS # 4343). The Cherry-Picker varieties are just duplicates of the 4342 and 4343. I still don’t think that they got it right, just more confusion.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Well.......The third line is still wrong. #4343 should say "9 Over Close 6." Let me work on that.
There are two different dies that qualify for the #4342 listing, the V-1 and the V-2 (also known as V-6 in the late die state, but none of the grading services recognize it). Only the V-2 qualifies as the CPG FS-302, which is the PCGS #145432.
So, #4342 is NOT the same as #145432, but #4343 IS the same as #38738. Got that? For my next trick I will explain how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I tried to get both the CPG and PCGS to recognize the V-1 die with separate numbers, which might have helped clarify all this, but neither party wished to do so. PCGS cannot do so unless CPG does first, and Bill Fivaz is not interested.
TD
As far as Liberty Seated Half Dimes are concerned, I thought PCGS only recognized the FS numbers as stated in the CPG? If that is correct, they why are they using non-FS designations such as "Widely Placed 6"? Here's their list. The Liberty Seated Half Dimes fall under the umbrella of the last line. No half dimes are on the noted exclusion list.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
PCGS also recognizes varieties that are in the Redbook...if I am not mistaken.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
PCGS says 38738 is a variety of 4343......
I'm using aspirin this morning, I'll switch to booze later.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I was going by the images posted in CoinFacts under those PCGS #'s.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Forgot to mention in my above post that ultimately this being the case, yes, a separate number would've settled everything.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The registry updated. No doubt thanks to CaptHenway! I also e-mailed and I received a nice response to let me know these changes were made. Here are some screenshots.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Where is the “Over Close 6” 4343?
That is not there. I assume because it's the same as FS-301 so it would be a duplicate.
These screen shots are the "Complete" variety set. The "Major variety set has a slot for 1849/6 but no PCGS# at all next to it.
Personally I don't agree with an "optional" coin that's not calculated into the set being included in a set..... because then it's not really part of the set. But I guess this is what got decided on.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Screenshot from the "Major" variety set:
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
But isn’t 4343 a Redbook variety?
Above I mentioned that I was under the impression 4343 & 38738 (FS-301) are the same, but PCGS says one is a
variety of the other-
Screenshot from Cert Verification page:
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
So if you have an 1849/6 Close 6 and you send it in as an overdate you automatically get the 38738 designation with an FS number, even though you did not pay for an FS-number, but if you send in an 1849/6 Wide 6 as an overdate you get the 4342 designation without the FS number?
Who's on First?
The FS-301 that I just had graded was purchased in a 4343 slab. When I sent it in I taped a note to the slab explicitly saying I wanted FULL attribution as 38378 (FS-301). I did pay the attribution fee.
As you can see in the screen shot above of it's verification page, PCGS says it's a variety of itself.
How is that even possible?
I don't know the answer to either of your questions, but I will likely figure out who's on first before the other question.....
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
What's on second.....
I really wish that whoever is mucking up this one date of a coin would pay attention to this thread and their contributors for a subject matter expert. It's not that hard to understand among specialists.
I dont know is on third...
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
And I don’t give a darn!
4342 Was removed from the "COMPLETE" Variety set.
The generic entry for 1849/6 is still in the "MAJOR" set with no assigned PCGS# to that slot. It has not changed, so I assume anyone pursuing that set with any 1849/6 variety would have that slot filled.
This is today's screenshot of the COMPLETE Variety set.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Just got the TrueView of the above mentioned FS-301.
AU55
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Nice coin.
It definitely has the V-4 / FS-301 obverse.
I don't see the crack at the left ribbon and stem, or at R, so I think it may be a V-5.
Although with the toning, those cracks could be harder to spot from a photo (even a nice one like this).
I don't see the V-5 reverse cracks, either (they are very light, though).
I see some die file marks above ES and OF which may help - will check with my photo collection when I'm back at home.
I finally got around to sending in my two circulated 1849 9 Over Widely Placed 6 H10C, and they came through this time, PCGS # 4342. In April 2019, the attributor room said that they did not see it and sent them out unattributed.
These two were reholder / variety attribution submissions, along with some other crossovers, so the certification numbers did not change.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Did they put FS-302 on the holders or are they still using "Over Widely Placed 6"?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I did not pay the $18 attribution fee for the FS number, so it states "9 Over Widely Placed 6".
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
CoinFacts updated for my submittal;
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...