Is collecting exonumia now like collecting coins 100 years ago?
Zoins
Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
When collecting So-Called Dollars and tokens, the lack of CAC, a lot of pedigree information for rare pieces, and even ability for PCGS to catalog/slab pieces has me feel that a lot of research, cataloging and documentation still needs to be done. Work that has already been done for coins.
For people who collect exonumia, does it sometimes feel like collecting coins in the distant past, when the market was much less mature?
6
Comments
Yes, I've had that feeling many times Zoins!
The varieties and designs are numerous. So the documentation can be hard to find. The designs can be spectacular though. That makes collecting them so satisfying.
That is an interesting and accurate observation.
I agree with @Kudbegud . Also, since are so many varieties it may take many, many more years of research.
I do applaud people like you @zoins .
We have had so many good people document and catalog yet still it can be overwhelming at times.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I think it was much more like that 35 or so years ago. Today the lust for big money has invaded the exonumia field and is clearly having an effect on it. When I see exonumia at shows today I mostly see overpriced, rather common pieces being offered as "rarities". This applies to both raw and, especially, to slabbed exonumia. Buy/sell margins in the exonumia field seem to be high with many items seeming to be one-way markets. The last thing the field needs now is "stickers".
What, exactly, is a So Called Dollar?
I think it was much more like that 35 or so years ago. Today the lust for big money has invaded the exonumia field and is clearly having an effect on it. When I see exonumia at shows today I mostly see overpriced, rather common pieces being offered as "rarities". This applies to both raw and, especially, to slabbed exonumia. Buy/sell margins in the exonumia field seem to be high with many items seeming to be one-way markets. The last thing the field needs now is stickers.
I am certainly not the one one who determines such things, if I was this would receive a POTD award. as I have said in the past --- Including the "Price Guide" with the 2nd Edition SC$'s was a bad idea, though I understand it was a publisher requirement.
Not sure about 100 years, but I'm enjoying the heck out of medal collecting. Scarcity and rarity without the great demand, artificial or otherwise. Lots of fun researching and learning. Grading is simple and conservative. Have not run into any evidence of larceny (prevalent in US coins since I was a kid), just occasional incompetence, which is much easier to deal with. The internet has made this feasible. 100 years ago, it would have been very difficult to make any headway in my area of interest. Most of my purchases are from Europe. In summary, the good collecting vibe from 100 years ago (I guess), plus the positive side of the internet.
Essentially, it is a medal that is about the same size as a US Silver Dollar. It can be made from any metal. More specifically, they should be listed in the Hibbler-Kappan So-Called Dollars book that was published in the early 1960's. Medals listed in that book have HK numbers assigned.
So-Called dollars are not tokens. They do not have any stated value on the medal.
It's interesting how it can so easily be seen that stickers would harm this area of collecting but to even hint that in regard to coins brings out the fists.
Adding a bit more they are mostly 38mm in diameter same as a silver dollar.
I have found collecting exonumia to be the most enjoyable stage of my time in the hobby. So much more interesting than hunting coins that differ only in date/mm, and we are in a time when others are entering the field in larger numbers. In fact, wasnt there a period in the US when medals were collected more than coins?
Rather than a "lust for big money," I have a different perspective on the wild price differences that are evident in much of exonumia. Simply put, it is the supply that is a finite number. While the demand may wax and wane, are the active buyers watching when a coveted piece comes to market? To that end, think of what kind of searching it takes to locate such pieces, even in the age of the internet. Lots of things fall through the cracks, it happens to me all the time. I'm a big collector of Joseph Merriam's work. So when I search, do I type in Merriam and sift through piles of listings for dictionaries? The subject of the medal? The attribution number? The location of the token? Etc, etc. My recent acquisition of the John J Ford examples of all denominations of the Mass. 23rd Regt Sutler tokens are a good example. I was ready to pay twice what they sold for, because they are that good. Best of the best.
Nobody watching and I picked them up for significantly less (some half) of what they sold for 6 years ago.
Exonumia presents a very big opportunity for people who want to put together great, historical collections without competing against millionaires.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
It might be an area where Hansen could be soundly thrashed.
There are similarities in some ways - what I have collected the last 35 years in "exonumia" has generally no reference books and little research. Every medal etc. that I have is raw, which has made it fun as the cost is low; like collecting US coins in the 1920's.
I don't care about HK designations as the physical criteria needed for HK leaves out much historically important commemorative items at the local and regional level.
I tend to agree with the +/- 35 years ago in exonumia vs. 100 years ago in coins except for certain areas which are now more similar in market to classic commems or U.S. patterns in their Wild West days...
Error Coins Dude!!!!!
Thank you for writing this.
As I do my own searches,etc I see the opportunities that exist in Exonumia but, to be honest, I am not currently of the financial means to put together what would be considered a "great, historical" collection.
However, I find your words motivating. They are a nice reassurance as I go about trying to put together a collection of Exonumia which is both "great" ( in my own eyes) and "historically" significant to me.
I know that the education I receive here on the boards and through my own research will allow me to be ready when the time comes to pick up whatever piece may cross my path.
I love exonumia. I slum it with the love tokens, counter struck, drilled holes, punch outs, “opium” / locket and anything that is unique.
As another poster stated, exonumia at coin shows is priced much higher than the market prices with eBay auctions.
Just tonight I won a superb Morgan dollar punch out surrounded by a brooch on a metal chain. Nicest I have ever seen.
My goal is to put together a date set of seated dime love tokens. Love it all.
I think there are inexpensive opportunities to make a "great, historical" collection, but they may not be considered "great" today. You may need to be satisfied with "historical" and wait for the collection to become great over time, which may, or may not happen. As mentioned, some pieces have already gained a lot, especially slabbed pieces. Buying unslabbed pieces has some risk, but potentially more reward.
Here's a message adapted from @ErrorsOnCoins
Go against the grain, refuse to conform
Pricey slabbed pieces have certainly started to appear. It's really important to have a feel on value so you know true market value vs. what may be very high asking prices.
I enjoy the hunt for CWT’s. I find ample raw, ample slabbed available at most times...as DCW mentioned, sometimes I see nice raw tokens and am shocked at the bidding wars that go on, yet two weeks later I see an equally nice coin, and I get it for half the price that I thought it would go for. Also, research material is very accessible. You also never know where you might find one... Just saw a bunch of tokens at an antique store at the beach...actually bought one. So aside from these tokens being in slabs, the hunt and joy of the search is reminiscent of 30 years ago. But, comments are not good without pics, here is my diversion.
Great post. I was just about to comment that Civil War Tokens seems to be a great place to make a memorable, historic collection. I have a bunch in a growing collection as well. At NGC, it's also possible to easily add your pedigree to the insert and you can order PhotoVision photos there or TrueViews here.
I began as an amateur coin collector, as most of us probably did years ago. I am a junkie for rarity, that is what got me interested in exonumia/medals.
I went to a local auction about 10 years ago, and one of the items that they had was advertised as a So-Called Dollar. I had no idea what this was, but i did some research. I bought the ungraded HK-399 for $150.00, sent it in to NGC for grading, and it came back MS 65!!! I listed this on Ebay and sold it for $1,000.00. Needless to say, I was hooked!!! I now have quite a large collection of So-Called Dollars, Dewitt Political Campaign medals, and other medals of United States historic people and events. All of my collection traces back to that first So-Called Dollar.
Over the years I collected many genre , dollars, type, CWT, Expo, etc.... I found many issues to be repetitive and boring so I lately have settled in on silver medals and SCD's of the "official" nature or gov't issue. Where else can you get a BU US gov't minted medal/SCD with 4 digit mintages for a fraction of a MS65 common Morgan dollar. and the artwork in the design is beautiful. e.g.- 1920 Wilson Dollar, 1876 Cent Dollar, 1907 Jamestown expo.......
I'd agree this is "the year of the errors."
I lost interest in a short while though.
There are real opportunities in tokens and medals. There are desirable and historic items that can be had for literally less than a nickel.
An example I often use is something like a St Louis rail token. These are exceedingly common because they made a million of them and there are only a few dozen collectors. But these tokens were made in batches that are easily identifiable. Early batches were smaller and encountered excessive wear. Yet if you are willing to put in the work you can find high grade examples of them... ...maybe.
Another example would be tax tokens. These are technically coins because they were issued by states and often used as lawful money until the secret service clamped down on the practice in 1935. Uncirculated examples of many of them are elusive and Gems tend to be rare of almost all issues. But it's not difficult to stumble on something like a nice choice Kankakee Illinois 1/4c tax token at a yard sale (especially if you live nearby).
Of course there are older rarities that are more well known and more modern items that are equally rare. Extensive collections can be put together for a very low cost or you can focus on themes and eras. Dealers don't have time to research everything they buy and can only sell it if they price it low.
Mmmm, maybe we should post some of the SCD's and tokens so everyone can see why we collect them...
.... because they are super cool!!
.
.
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Fascinating display!!!
Maybe, but I wouldn't count on a similar price performance to US coinage. Similar statement could be made about many if not most world coins, where the future price prospects aren't going to replicate US coinage either.
I think the potential options for other countries are ones with large domestic markets and a growing middle class. Of course if every country is going away from collecting physical coins, even those may not be enough.
Obviously your reasoning is sound.
However the growing availability of knowledge and access to information made possible by the internet is certain to increase demand across the board by dozens and dozens at the very minimum. For this reason almost any item that is exceedingly scarcer or rare is going to increase substantially in price and demand.
Considering the hundreds of thousands of different tokens and medals that exist and the rarity of so many of them we can be sure that there will be lots and lots of them that are rare.
The internet will also make these much easier to trade and find.
In the long run the potential increases in all collectibles is centered around rarity. Demand is key in the short run but rarity in the long run.
A great number of coins, tokens and medals are scarce.
An interesting thing about tokens and medals is that pieces like Lesher dollars and Bolen medals have increased a lot, into the thousands of dollars. Provenance information on these is still limited.
I have addressed increasing financial affluence many times. There is absolutely no evidence that the price level is so much lower outside the United States due to the lack of ability to pay more, by the population generally. It may be true applied to the existing collector population (within narrow limits) since collectors are motivated to pay more given an adequate resale market; not a "one-way" market.
Whether this is likely depends upon which country, segment, series or coin someone has in mind. I have estimated there are at least 250,000 coins ever struck as a date/design/mintmark/country combination. It's a big number so purely by random chance an absolute noticeable number can appreciate noticeably, unless the popularity of collecting completely collapses.
Even assuming all other factors are favorable, the biggest obstacle to materially higher prices is the inability of most markets to accommodate any meaningful increase in buying power. The supply of coins - especially the better ones US collectors actually want to buy the most - is so low that it will not accommodate what US collecting considers a meaningful collector base. (There is more opportunity if predominantly collecting by type versus date but that doesn't seem to be the typical pattern elsewhere for the coins I know best. This seems to be predominantly a US practice.)
As one example, recently I estimated that the total value of all better South African ZAR and Union coinage is between $32MM and $50MM and much of this is never even available for sale. It's immaterial by any standard and this is probably more than most countries.
A few countries such as China, Russia, India and Brazil probably have enough quality supply and variety to result in this outcome but still at a much smaller scale than in the US. In most European countries, it's probably the opposite where the collector base will always be too small to absorb the supply, unless concurrent noticeable demand exists elsewhere, such as with US demand for UK coinage.
I agree with all your comments, to a point.
Per our prior discussions, I don't believe the price increases will hardly ever be meaningful by my standards though it might be by yours. Also, I don't believe that rarity by itself really matters that much. There are plenty of rare items but the objects other attributes don't give anyone much if any motivation to pay a lot more or a high price.
Additionally, unusual scarcity or rarity not only doesn't appear to lead to higher prices but lower than if the item or series had a somewhat larger one. The reason for this is that it constricts the size of the collector base since no one can buy what doesn't exist. This is true for most of the coin I do and have collected since 1998, even assuming many more wanted to buy it which I don't believe is the case anyway.
For most non-US coinage, tokens and medals, there are so many different ones with many more to come, that most will remain lost in a sea of obscurity even with the internet.
Agreed. I'm talking about countries with large economies that are competitive with the US, hence the "large domestic markets" clause in my previous post. I'm not discussing countries like South Africa because they have a smaller economy.
The limitation isn't with the size of the current economy but with what exists to be bought. Obviously, if South Africa had a tradition of collecting similar to Europe and the US, the supply would be much larger and their economy could easily absorb a huge multiple financially to the estimate I provided. This cannot happen because no matter how much they might want to spend, there is little in their local coinage to buy.
Even in the four countries I listed, the opportunity is much less than many US collectors seem to think. The most preferred Chinese, Russian and Brazilian coins are also already expensive now, even though proportionately usually much cheaper than US coinage.
The variety is certainly there unlike most other countries but doubt the supply of higher quality classic equivalent coinage is really that large for a much larger future collector base.
European coinage from maybe 1775 and later isn't particularly scarce and mostly common from my observations. I still have never heard that the more recent supply of classic equivalents is anywhere near the most widely collected US series due to the lower mintages and limited hoarding.
As an example, I'd estimate that the current supply of (near) UNC Morgan dollars is a multiple (maybe a big one) to all other crown sized coins ever struck elsewhere combined, excluding NCLT.
I'm not sure how a tradition of collecting would lead to a larger supply of coins, which I take to mean business strike coins. The supply of business strike coins is determined by the mint for circulation needs, not collecting. Instead of business strike coins, are you specifically referring to proof and NCLT collector coins which are more tied to a culture of collecting?
Regarding whether there is a lot or little to buy, I think that is more nuanced and depends on the specific coins being discussed. As an example, there seem to be a lot of South Africa proof coins floating around from the 1950s and 1960s.
If the coins are much cheaper than US coinage, then there is still upward potential as collectors of those coins become more affluent. I think Chinese coins may be the most preferred of the group because they have the largest economy of the group at the moment.
I don't think the supply of higher quality classic coinage is necessarily a limitation to collectors. Some US coins have very low quality and are still avidly collected, for example colonials and Gobrecht dollars. In some of these series, coins are more often silently net graded than other coins.
I'm not sure what this means. Do you mean you haven't heard the demand for foreign coins is anywhere near the demand for US coins?
I think the US is unique in that it has a combination of large GDP, high per capita GDP, a lot of people, and a consumer culture.
Morgan dollars are an anomaly because so many were produced and never circulated due to graft.
Overall, the discussion of non-US coins seems a bit off-topic given that the OP talks about exonumia and (US) coins as it is on the US Coin Forum.
A lot of exonumia has exceeded most any regular coin series values in the last 15 years.
Hard Time Tokens for example hit a high in 2008 with the sale of the Dice/Hicks sale. Many of us grumbled under out breath that we aren't paying those kind of prices. Today we'd love a time machine to go back and willingly do so. Some tokens have soared as much as 7 times today with 3-5 times on average for many since prior to the Dice/Hicks sale.
Interestingly many exonumia collectors also collect mint errors.
I'm impressed by the number of tokens and medals in the 4 figure range now. 5 figures seems to be reserved for exceptional, rare pieces and 6 figures seem to be for pieces that are collected with coins. I don't recall seeing any 7 figure exonumia, yet.
I understand your point but it is mostly lost to those who seek rarities outside of classic US coins. Sure, it's unlikely the rarest telephone tokens will ever much exceed $10,000 (if even that much) but today almost all telephone tokens can be found for wholesale price of about $1.50
There are hundreds of thousands of different tokens and medals and many rarities of all sorts not even including condition rarities. This means you can hardly shake a stick at a dealer stock book without having one or two rarities in it. The difficulty is in knowing which are common and which are rare.
As time goes by more and more will be known. I remember a thread here about Chuck-e-cheese tokens and there was a list of rarities which already bring hundreds of dollars. All it takes is a handful of specialists to research such things.
Think of it this way; there probably aren't much more than a million or two rare US coins in aggregate of both classics and moderns. There are probably no more than two or three million truly rare tokens and medals in aggregate. While it's likely there will be fewer collectors of tokens and medals in 100 years than there are collectors of US rarities today there are certain to be far more collectors of rare token and medals in the future than there are now and they'll have knowledge of what's available and access to collecting them by means of computer communication.
Few if any of us will be around to see this but the fact is this will come into existence incrementally and it has already started. It will affect one specialty after another and in each case evolve until most of what's knowable is known. Right now I have every book, list, and pamphlet written on telephone tokens yet I can't tell rare from common except to the degree I know which appear and which don't. Ultimately only demand can separate the common from the rare. Once there are a few dozen collectors the rarities will simply emerge like cream rising on milk.
The current situation is like the wild west where opportunities and danger abound. But there is very little "danger" to real collectors. How badly you get burned buying amusement tokens at 3/ 25c?
Just stake your claim and mine for gold.
Following CRF to post images:
Here are a couple slave tokens:
I initially used world coinage as a point of comparison. But you are correct, it is off topic and I'll answer your points some other time. To bring t back on topic, the only way what the OP implies is feasible is if one of two things happen:
First, the relative preference between coinage and exonumia can change dramatically. It can happen but I'd rate the chances as essentially nil.
Second, the collector base for both can increase so dramatically that the prices of both will explode. I have no problem predicting that isn't going to happen either.
If this is correct, then this leaves the most likely outcome that a very low proportion of these items will increase both noticeably and materially. As with most coinage, most tokens and medals don't have much distinction where more than a very few will even want it, much less at a high price. If I am remembering it correctly, Lesher dollars are an exception through inclusion in the Red Book.
The reason I disagree with your point financially is because hardly any of these tokens have much if any distinction to hardly anyone. I have yet to read any reason from anyone in this thread why anyone would ever want to pay any meaningful price for more than a very low proportion of this stuff.
I haven't said that it won't happen at all, only that the overwhelming percentage won't and that it won't be financially meaningful to hardly anyone who buys it. In the example you used in this thread, you used it once before. I don't consider those amounts material, as it's far less than I made with my South African collection when it was my primary interest. The profit was nice but it didn't make any difference to my financial circumstances.
Most collectors will not buy something primarily because it is rare. That's the same mentality the South Africa collectors I know had with their coinage before this bubble burst in 2012. They either do or at least did believe that every single (actual and imaginary) rare coin in the South African series should sell for "moon money". If what you claimed was feasible, it would far more evident in the price of world coinage right now since the preference is much higher than for the material you are talking about.
If what you claim is a reasonable representation of the future, then I should make a fortune off of my pillar collection because maybe a handful of others can replicate what I have in quality and completion since that's the likely supply.
I have never claimed this is going to happen as there is no reason to believe it.
I'm not talking about buying something because it's rare even though this is exactly the thinking behind the "box of 20" concept. I'm talking about collectors seeking completeness and competing for the rare items.
We merely need to live long enough to see it.
It will happen much sooner for pillar dollars than for telephone tokens so you might see it.
Set collecting driving substantial appreciation isn't likely to be noticeable outside an extremely low percentage of this material either. This is also outside the question poised by the OP but I will elaborate anyway.
One: Where the collector base is relatively large, the items are (relatively) common and the number of "key" items is low or very low, what you describe is accurate. That's what we see in practically every single US series.
Two: If collectors find the coin or series interesting or compelling but it has an outsized scarcity, prices will also be high. This is what exists for all US series which don't fit my first scenario. An example is the 1813-1834 half eagle.
Three: If the coin or series is abnormally scarce, there cannot be a large collector base pursuing it as a set, as there isn't much or hardly anything to buy. Since we have discussed this many times before, I believe you understand my point. The other responses I have read on this forum seem to be thinking in the abstract and ignoring the obstacles which prevent any potential collector from reaching their goals or just enhancing their collecting experience.
The difference between a series like the US Capped Head half eagle and world coins such as those I collect or rare tokens/medals are first, practically every US collector would like to own these coins. Most buy it as a type coin which means that the limited supply is still large enough for those who can afford it. And second with scarcer US coins generally, enough collectors will accept low quality examples and there is usually a low but noticeable number in "high quality" for the discriminating buyer.
None of this really applies to the coins I collect and it applies even less to the material you are referencing. Future change isn't impossible, but the evidence from how collectors actually act demonstrates it will only apply in isolation because the object's attributes don't give hardly anyone a reason to want it consistently over time at a "premium" price.
Well I really like exonumia and recently very interested in a few Modern US Mint Commemorative medals from the 40's. As far as "Is this like collecting 100 years ago", I can't say from personal experience
, but it is a lot like 50 years ago for me in my early coin hunting days.
I just wish one or two eBay bidders would go on vacation for a couple months with no internet access so I can win a few bids for some tough ones. LOL
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set