@washingtonrainbows said:
Anyone that thinks rounding up is a buyers advantage has to be an idiot. Go buy a calculator it’s much cheaper than the added 2.5%.
O% buyer fees of course are the easiest to calculate. Have not been to the David Lawrence site for many years, but that was their strategy. Same with Ebay.
100% buyer fees would work well also as you just bid half of what you are willing to pay for a coin at auction.
It would be a smoother auction experience if Stacks and Heritage front ended the fees to the seller. Not sure though that smooth is what they are looking for.
If you bid online you don’t have to calculate anything as both companies show the hammer price and the full price when you place your bid.
@washingtonrainbows said:
Anyone that thinks rounding up is a buyers advantage has to be an idiot. Go buy a calculator it’s much cheaper than the added 2.5%.
O% buyer fees of course are the easiest to calculate. Have not been to the David Lawrence site for many years, but that was their strategy. Same with Ebay.
100% buyer fees would work well also as you just bid half of what you are willing to pay for a coin at auction.
It would be a smoother auction experience if Stacks and Heritage front ended the fees to the seller. Not sure though that smooth is what they are looking for.
If you bid online you don’t have to calculate anything as both companies show the hammer price and the full price when you place your bid.
That is true once the auction goes live. If I bid a day early and place a bid above the next increment, it is time to do some ciphering.
@cameonut2011 said:
Hmm... 20% "buyer's fee" + 5% "seller's fee" + up to 28% in capital gains tax = as high as 53% gone (at least as to the taxable portion)... Couple this with grade inflation and a down market, and there is no wonder why the market has been hurting so much. Who would anyone want to sell nice coins under those conditions (save for rare exceptions)?
Come on, that’s not how math works. You also don’t get taxed on the parts that don’t net you income. If you bought a coin for $100 and resold it at auction for $192 (including BP) then that means a hammer of $160. I doubt most people pay the sellers fee but add another $8 so the consignor nets $52. Tax that at 28% and you net $37.44. That is quite a bit lower than the new sale price, for sure (28.4%) but nowhere near 53%. Now, your profit % went from 92% to 37.4% but those numbers depend on the original purchase price, which makes it an erroneous comparison. Lastly, if you are thinking about a down market and you lose money on the transaction (after fees) taxes work in your favor.
You didn't read my post carefully. I said as high as 53% "at least as to the taxable portion." I understand that you deduct your original costs, auction fees, etc., in calculating capital gains and losses. That also doesn't include state and local income taxes where applicable. The point is that you are losing approximately half of your profits from any sale in addition to the real prospect of taking a loss towards commissions that also apply towards the non-taxable part making it very difficult to get ahead. Moreover, I don't agree that loses work in your favor. Collectors are considered hobbyists and cannot deduct capital losses or offset them against capital gains although they are still liable for taxation on the gains. (Investors and dealers have more flexible rules). To make matters worse, it is my understanding that the new tax bill killed 1031 like kind exchanges for everything (except for real estate) so that is no longer an option either.
@cameonut2011 I don’t disagree with your points at all, I was just nit-picking the exact numbers. I read your post carefully and your math isn’t quite right. Assume you got the coin in that example for free so your whole profit is taxable. You end up with $109.44. The fees are calculated on the hammer price but the taxable amount is the full sales price reduced by the fees. Therefore you can’t simply add them (as they have different denominators). Your profit should have been $192, but it was reduced by 43%.
The more the fee, the less the sellers take home plain and simple. There are some instances where not if the seller has enough to negotiate a portion of the BP or some buyers who simply don't care about the BP and bid the amount at hammer irregardless of fee.
I am glad legend is keeping there's at 17.5%
and ians GC business has exploded as they remain at 10% (bigger and better consignments)
As mentioned in early post, really casues some to evaluate how much they stretch for an item, knowing when they sell it they have to fight the BP fee that a buyers pays (which comes out of there portion as the seller)
And I meant to add I saw lauras post about the sothebys auction, I bidded on a couple of those morgan's for a customer out of that old green holder morgan sale they had a while back. I and my customer did not pick up on the 25% auction fee until after I bid. When he got the invoice he about flipped out , not too mention they hit hard with the shipping fee on top of that!!
@david3142 said: @cameonut2011 I don’t disagree with your points at all, I was just nit-picking the exact numbers. I read your post carefully and your math isn’t quite right. Assume you got the coin in that example for free so your whole profit is taxable. You end up with $109.44. The fees are calculated on the hammer price but the taxable amount is the full sales price reduced by the fees. Therefore you can’t simply add them (as they have different denominators). Your profit should have been $192, but it was reduced by 43%.
I was being sloppy in trying to over simplify. You're right.
The downside Ito my generics ($20 gold) is that the margins are so tight that even a 10% vig is too large. I can call up dealers and they have no problem beating my likely estimated auction net so I just sell them outright. I truly need a 7% all in cost to risk auctions
Everybody should stop buying coins at auctions.
Nobody should buy a coin without a bean.
NGC coins are all over-graded so you shouldn't think of buying/crossing them either.
Gold is going down to $800 again.
What else...
Stay away from the 29 Saint, I heard they found a hoard & the price is gonna drop.
Heritage charges 25% for historical items which I’ve paid for election medals. Holabird charges 29%, including coins and medals, which I haven’t had the pleasure of paying yet.
@jkrk said:
The downside Ito my generics ($20 gold) is that the margins are so tight that even a 10% vig is too large. I can call up dealers and they have no problem beating my likely estimated auction net so I just sell them outright. I truly need a 7% all in cost to risk auctions
Why is that a downside? Best price is best price.
As I say in these here parts a lot: not everything belongs in every venue. What belongs at GC is different than what belongs at Heritage/Stack's is different than what belongs at eBay or the local B&M or mail-order house. Part of what makes a dealer successful is known how to get the right item in the right venue.
There's a story on the net about a guy who made $2500 in one day by buying discounted monopoly games at Walmart and selling them at Amazon for 3x the price.
Google: retail arbitrage.
I buy coins almost weekly from GC (pay their vig) and move them to eBay (pay their vig) and still make money. I bought 8 coins last week and already sold 4 of them on eBay. [Thank you again, eBay, for the 13% bonus bucks.]
@jkrk said:
The downside Ito my generics ($20 gold) is that the margins are so tight that even a 10% vig is too large. I can call up dealers and they have no problem beating my likely estimated auction net so I just sell them outright. I truly need a 7% all in cost to risk auctions
Why is that a downside? Best price is best price.
As I say in these here parts a lot: not everything belongs in every venue. What belongs at GC is different than what belongs at Heritage/Stack's is different than what belongs at eBay or the local B&M or mail-order house. Part of what makes a dealer successful is known how to get the right item in the right venue.
There's a story on the net about a guy who made $2500 in one day by buying discounted monopoly games at Walmart and selling them at Amazon for 3x the price.
Google: retail arbitrage.
I buy coins almost weekly from GC (pay their vig) and move them to eBay (pay their vig) and still make money. I bought 8 coins last week and already sold 4 of them on eBay. [Thank you again, eBay, for the 13% bonus bucks.]
A downside? ... poor choice of words. Was losing my train of thought. Getting old. You're right. I meant to say that auctions weren't a proper venue for generics with their tight margins.
The upside... There is little/no premium decay left (especially since everything is marked down to melt , in my mind, each year. The premiums are so low.... I'm happy. I basically own gold, and paid a very small price for coins. If gold ever surges ( which would be economically unfortunate) I have a cheap call on premiums.
@jkrk said:
The downside Ito my generics ($20 gold) is that the margins are so tight that even a 10% vig is too large. I can call up dealers and they have no problem beating my likely estimated auction net so I just sell them outright. I truly need a 7% all in cost to risk auctions
Why is that a downside? Best price is best price.
As I say in these here parts a lot: not everything belongs in every venue. What belongs at GC is different than what belongs at Heritage/Stack's is different than what belongs at eBay or the local B&M or mail-order house. Part of what makes a dealer successful is known how to get the right item in the right venue.
There's a story on the net about a guy who made $2500 in one day by buying discounted monopoly games at Walmart and selling them at Amazon for 3x the price.
Google: retail arbitrage.
I buy coins almost weekly from GC (pay their vig) and move them to eBay (pay their vig) and still make money. I bought 8 coins last week and already sold 4 of them on eBay. [Thank you again, eBay, for the 13% bonus bucks.]
A downside? ... poor choice of words. Was losing my train of thought. Getting old. You're right. I meant to say that auctions weren't a proper venue for generics with their tight margins.
The upside... There is little/no premium decay left (especially since everything is marked down to melt , in my mind, each year. The premiums are so low.... I'm happy. I basically own gold, and paid a very small price for coins. If gold ever surges ( which would be economically unfortunate) I have a cheap call on premiums.
Agree. If you like gold coins, plenty to be had with little premium. If only spot were $800!
Comments
If you bid online you don’t have to calculate anything as both companies show the hammer price and the full price when you place your bid.
That is true once the auction goes live. If I bid a day early and place a bid above the next increment, it is time to do some ciphering.
Be happy fees are what they are. Sothebys is 25% the first $300,000.00 per item!!!!!!!
You didn't read my post carefully. I said as high as 53% "at least as to the taxable portion." I understand that you deduct your original costs, auction fees, etc., in calculating capital gains and losses. That also doesn't include state and local income taxes where applicable. The point is that you are losing approximately half of your profits from any sale in addition to the real prospect of taking a loss towards commissions that also apply towards the non-taxable part making it very difficult to get ahead. Moreover, I don't agree that loses work in your favor. Collectors are considered hobbyists and cannot deduct capital losses or offset them against capital gains although they are still liable for taxation on the gains. (Investors and dealers have more flexible rules). To make matters worse, it is my understanding that the new tax bill killed 1031 like kind exchanges for everything (except for real estate) so that is no longer an option either.
@cameonut2011 I don’t disagree with your points at all, I was just nit-picking the exact numbers. I read your post carefully and your math isn’t quite right. Assume you got the coin in that example for free so your whole profit is taxable. You end up with $109.44. The fees are calculated on the hammer price but the taxable amount is the full sales price reduced by the fees. Therefore you can’t simply add them (as they have different denominators). Your profit should have been $192, but it was reduced by 43%.
The more the fee, the less the sellers take home plain and simple. There are some instances where not if the seller has enough to negotiate a portion of the BP or some buyers who simply don't care about the BP and bid the amount at hammer irregardless of fee.
I am glad legend is keeping there's at 17.5%
and ians GC business has exploded as they remain at 10% (bigger and better consignments)
As mentioned in early post, really casues some to evaluate how much they stretch for an item, knowing when they sell it they have to fight the BP fee that a buyers pays (which comes out of there portion as the seller)
And I meant to add I saw lauras post about the sothebys auction, I bidded on a couple of those morgan's for a customer out of that old green holder morgan sale they had a while back. I and my customer did not pick up on the 25% auction fee until after I bid. When he got the invoice he about flipped out , not too mention they hit hard with the shipping fee on top of that!!
I was being sloppy in trying to over simplify. You're right.
The downside Ito my generics ($20 gold) is that the margins are so tight that even a 10% vig is too large. I can call up dealers and they have no problem beating my likely estimated auction net so I just sell them outright. I truly need a 7% all in cost to risk auctions
I wouldn’t like carrying large amounts of cash for my winning bid.
I don't understand - why would you need to carry a large amount of cash? They'll take a personal check for no additional surcharge. Please explain.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Everybody should stop buying coins at auctions.
Nobody should buy a coin without a bean.
NGC coins are all over-graded so you shouldn't think of buying/crossing them either.
Gold is going down to $800 again.
What else...
Stay away from the 29 Saint, I heard they found a hoard & the price is gonna drop.
My Saint Set
Heritage charges 25% for historical items which I’ve paid for election medals. Holabird charges 29%, including coins and medals, which I haven’t had the pleasure of paying yet.
Why is that a downside? Best price is best price.
As I say in these here parts a lot: not everything belongs in every venue. What belongs at GC is different than what belongs at Heritage/Stack's is different than what belongs at eBay or the local B&M or mail-order house. Part of what makes a dealer successful is known how to get the right item in the right venue.
There's a story on the net about a guy who made $2500 in one day by buying discounted monopoly games at Walmart and selling them at Amazon for 3x the price.
Google: retail arbitrage.
I buy coins almost weekly from GC (pay their vig) and move them to eBay (pay their vig) and still make money. I bought 8 coins last week and already sold 4 of them on eBay. [Thank you again, eBay, for the 13% bonus bucks.]
Pour a couple Mai Tai's and we can toast that good fortune.
A downside? ... poor choice of words. Was losing my train of thought. Getting old. You're right. I meant to say that auctions weren't a proper venue for generics with their tight margins.
The upside... There is little/no premium decay left (especially since everything is marked down to melt , in my mind, each year. The premiums are so low.... I'm happy. I basically own gold, and paid a very small price for coins. If gold ever surges ( which would be economically unfortunate) I have a cheap call on premiums.
Agree. If you like gold coins, plenty to be had with little premium. If only spot were $800!