@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "I must apologize. Clearly my verbiage is not clear. I was not trying to say that a CURRENT 55 looks like a CURRENT 58. I'm saying if you struck out the middle AU grades so it was just say 50 and 55, the CURRENT 58 coin (call it Fred) would look exactly the same when Fred has a 55 on his jersey. Cuz it is still Fred.
Inevitably, if you are going to have fewer grades you are going to have to lump some coins together. So why not comine 50/53 and 55/58 and only have 2 AU grades?
Accepted. Words mean something to me. I often type before I think.
As to this: "So why not comine 50/53 and 55/58 and only have 2 AU grades?" IMO, it is a very silly and UNWORKABLE suggestion. In my experience, I cannot ever recall anyone who had difficulty determining those three AU grades.
Most of the controversy with grading takes place at the 58 on up levels where much of the value is often centered. Eliminating many of the intermediate grades of circulated coins may be more helpful.
IDK. In my dream of having only 10 total grades, if I have 3 AU grades and 3 UNC grades, I've used up 6 out of 10 already.
@jmlanzaf said:
I would like to issue a blanket call for everyone to either put me on ignore or get ready for 1000 word posts. Clearly, I need to use more words of explanation to avoid confusion in meaning.
I'm in favor of long and clear posts! I thoroughly enjoy reading long INFORMATIVE posts written by some of the top numismatists in the country. For example - LAURA , please give a 30min presentation about the high-end coins and workings of auctions at the FUN convention. The attendance would be out the door.
@jmlanzaf said:
I was not trying to say that a CURRENT 55 looks like a CURRENT 58. I'm saying if you struck out the middle AU grades so it was just say 50 and 55, the CURRENT 58 coin (call it Fred) would look exactly the same when Fred has a 55 on his jersey. Cuz it is still Fred.
FWIW, that's what I thought you meant in the first plce.
@EagleEye said:
Very good podcast. I think the biggest single comment is about the future of grading. The future is with less grades, and more verbal grades, as opposed to the advancement of more numbers and "+". I started using Typical, Average, Choice, Gem Superb a few years ago for my PDS grading system and last year changed my pricing guide eliminating numerical grading altogether. 50 years from now, we will all be saying something like this: "This is a Choice Unc coin, it was graded MS65 over 60 years ago." The "Choice" grade will carry more weight than the grade on the holder.
Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread has given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 points that @Insider2 injected in this thread. No way I’m I telling him which ones.
Mr Snow it was nice seeing you at LB yesterday. You’re looking good
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said: "Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread was given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 points that @Insider2 injected in this thread. No way I’m I telling him which ones."
That's surprising to read from you. I think you could teach all of us something.
@Justacommeman said: "Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread was given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 extraneous points that @Insider2 injected in this thread gratuitously. No way I’m I telling him which ones."
That's surprising to read from you. I think you could teach all of us something.
I'm developing a increasingly greater sense that it's worthless to bother.
A great post by the OP of a interview that answers many simple questions and uncomplicates some misconceptions.
Then, posters like @jmlanzaf, who evidently has some awareness of his problem, continues to ..... never mind ....
m, I edited your post for clarity. I counted nine, which will likely makes the learned troll feel even more fulfilled Are there any further developments in your experiments with The Beast on the effects of canine digestive acids upon hammered English silver? Have you ever tried a proof Roosie using a pork chop for a delivery system?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup asked: "Are there any further developments in your experiments with The Beast on the effects of canine digestive acids upon hammered English silver? Have you ever tried a proof Roosie using a pork chop for a delivery system?"
After charbroiling a beautiful commemorative I've given up on most experimentation. I'll leave it for the experts to teach me.
@Justacommeman said: "Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread was given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 extraneous points that @Insider2 injected in this thread gratuitously. No way I’m I telling him which ones."
That's surprising to read from you. I think you could teach all of us something.
I'm developing a increasingly greater sense that it's worthless to bother.
A great post by the OP of a interview that answers many simple questions and uncomplicates some misconceptions.
Then, posters like @jmlanzaf, who evidently has some awareness of his problem, continues to ..... never mind ....
m, I edited your post for clarity. I counted nine, which will likely makes the learned troll feel even more fulfilled Are there any further developments in your experiments with The Beast on the effects of canine digestive acids upon hammered English silver? Have you ever tried a proof Roosie using a pork chop for a delivery system?
I'm aware that you think I have a problem. At the very least we know that OCD is part of your issue since you again feel the need to insert me unnecessarily.
Does it bother you that much that you attacked me over your misunderstanding of JA?
It's okay. I forgive you. You can forgive yourself.
@Justacommeman said: "Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread was given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 extraneous points that @Insider2 injected in this thread gratuitously. No way I’m I telling him which ones."
That's surprising to read from you. I think you could teach all of us something.
I'm developing a increasingly greater sense that it's worthless to bother.
A great post by the OP of a interview that answers many simple questions and uncomplicates some misconceptions.
Then, posters like @jmlanzaf, who evidently has some awareness of his problem, continues to ..... never mind ....
m, I edited your post for clarity. I counted nine, which will likely makes the learned troll feel even more fulfilled Are there any further developments in your experiments with The Beast on the effects of canine digestive acids upon hammered English silver? Have you ever tried a proof Roosie using a pork chop for a delivery system?
I'm aware that you think I have a problem. At the very least we know that OCD is part of your issue since you again feel the need to insert me unnecessarily.
Does it bother you that much that you attacked me over your misunderstanding of JA?
It's okay. I forgive you. You can forgive yourself.
Remind me to check in with JA to see if he forgives me.
I haven't had this much fun since I worked in a psychiatric hospital. Now that NJ doesn't use electro-shock, I likely never will again
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Zoins said:
Micro grading is one reason I like tokens and medals. I have coins but it’s nice to not need to think about all this stuff all the time.
What do you consider to be "micro grading." Am I correct that it refers to being too critical or using more than your naked eye or 5X to examine a coin?
@Zoins said:
Micro grading is one reason I like tokens and medals. I have coins but it’s nice to not need to think about all this stuff all the time.
What do you consider to be "micro grading." Am I correct that it refers to being too critical or using more than your naked eye or 5X to examine a coin?
My dear friend, this is another example of you taking a casual and tangential remark and trying to drag a thread completely off-track. Likely, the same as both of us, he could use those terms for both. In what way whatsoever does this further the current topic? Are we about to open a debate about the best magnification for grading? Eagle knuckles on Classic Gold? I'm in, but the mere intimation of it in a thread already so egregiously disrupted seems like signaling a willingness to throw some gasoline on the next available fire. Could you possibly NOT respond? It would help strengthen my own resolve.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
If this represents the future of grading then it is time for another hobby. There is simply no effort to move grading in a progressive direction to reflect what has been learned and make grading what it needs to be...
Seriously... The future of grading as pontificated herein is in stiff competition with the sci-fi films from 60 years ago. And we know how that ended.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Exonumia are frequently just graded using coarse divisions. The TPGS's use the Sheldon scale, but traditionally it's just something like UNC, XF, VG, POOR. I think that's what he's referring to.
@Zoins said:
Micro grading is one reason I like tokens and medals. I have coins but it’s nice to not need to think about all this stuff all the time.
What do you consider to be "micro grading." Am I correct that it refers to being too critical or using more than your naked eye or 5X to examine a coin?
My dear friend, this is another example of you taking a casual and tangential remark and trying to drag a thread completely off-track. Likely, the same as both of us, he could use those terms for both. In what way whatsoever does this further the current topic? Are we about to open a debate about the best magnification for grading? Eagle knuckles on Classic Gold? I'm in, but the mere intimation of it in a thread already so egregiously disrupted seems like signaling a willingness to throw some gasoline on the next available fire.
You are correct. I posted a discussion based on this thread because I did not wish to highjack it: What is the difference between AU-55 and AU-58. I am trying to reply to both discussions.
Exonumia are frequently just graded using coarse divisions. The TPGS's use the Sheldon scale, but traditionally it's just something like UNC, XF, VG, POOR. I think that's what he's referring to.
The slabs I've seen for tokens look like they are graded the same as coins - a grade abbreviation + a number.
Example: XF-40.
My brain hurts trying to read this thread. We could safely delete at least half of it and nothing of value would be lost.
You are being conservative. Maybe I lean that way because I thought the podcast was straight forward or perhaps because it’s what Ive pretty much already believed it to be true. I was at the reveal “class” of CAC at ANA Colorado Summer Boot Camp. I got to ask JA a lot direct questions and was watching the “CAC” market closely from inception. I was a naysayer at the very beginning. Then I realized this was actually going to be good for me. I didn’t realize gradflation was as bad as it was. I under estimated it. I also thought it would save the value of my PQ NGC coins if they were to sticker. Not so. I had to cross those to PCGS in order to do that.
John always wanted to release the value of A/B coins from C coins. I’m sure the rapid decent of C coins and the utter glut of them on the bourse and at every major auction was more then he could imagine. It’s a problem and I don’t think the bottom is close to being in on C coins. The auction retreads and stale bourse inventory is enough to choke a horse. A very large horse. When people refer to a down market look no further then here.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Exonumia are frequently just graded using coarse divisions. The TPGS's use the Sheldon scale, but traditionally it's just something like UNC, XF, VG, POOR. I think that's what he's referring to.
The slabs I've seen for tokens look like they are graded the same as coins - a grade abbreviation + a number.
Example: XF-40.
That is what I said. The TPGS's use the Sheldon scale but that is not the traditional way to denote exonumia condition.
But, i'll let the OP explain what he meant, if he is so inclined.
I only listened to the interview once but I should again if I'm going to try and comment.
But @Justacommeman jogged something I heard in the front end of the podcast about the C coins being so prevalent at shows and auctions. Swirling clockwise down the drain and being regurgitated over and over.
This gives the uninformed observer the wrong impression of what is really out there.
And that really nice coins stay in strong hands longer than you think.
Good stuff.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
And just to get this our of the way......C coins exist at every grade. For my eyes it’s especially so at the 65- 68 grades. Those are where the most crack outs and upgrades seem to occur. A lot of barely there grades floating around.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Zoins said:
Micro grading is one reason I like tokens and medals. I have coins but it’s nice to not need to think about all this stuff all the time.
What do you consider to be "micro grading." Am I correct that it refers to being too critical or using more than your naked eye or 5X to examine a coin?
My dear friend, this is another example of you taking a casual and tangential remark and trying to drag a thread completely off-track. Likely, the same as both of us, he could use those terms for both. In what way whatsoever does this further the current topic? Are we about to open a debate about the best magnification for grading? Eagle knuckles on Classic Gold? I'm in, but the mere intimation of it in a thread already so egregiously disrupted seems like signaling a willingness to throw some gasoline on the next available fire.
You are correct. I posted a discussion based on this thread because I did not wish to highjack it: What is the difference between AU-55 and AU-58. I am trying to reply to both discussions.
This thread is discussing JA's podcast. He doesn't use a loupe. He and I settled "The Big Micro-Grading Dispute of 1987" in an early theoretical discussion about the MS68 grade as it applies to 3cS. Based on current populations, we were wasting our time then, and you are wasting it now. THERE IS NO DISCUSSION OF MICROGRADING in JA's podcast. @Zoins may have been considering the continuum MS66.6, MS66.7, MS66.8 and been making a philosophical point about pseudo-precision. If he calls it quasi-precision we could discuss the etymology of the dueling qualifiers. The possibilities are fascinating, even AMAZING. Even though it has less than nothing to do with JA's podcast, /Yawn
Oh look, the Mad Hatter is having a tea party.
"There's no place like home.... There's no place like home... There's no place like home... Judeeee.. wait up!"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I am not sure the hobby is prepared to look at coins again instead of opinions. And that starts with the host grade followed by a secondary opinion as to whether a coin is within the A, B or C spectrum.
Why don't we start with questioning whether a secondary opinion is needed at various grade levels? While I will concede grade flation is an issue, but how and why has it become the issue it is? Could it be that many gold and type coins were ridiculously graded years ago to the extend that a standard was created whereby it was simply not a reasonable standard to withstand the test of time?
So the real future or grading is about applying what has been learned in terms of mints, dates and dies associated with the production of an entire coin series. Does anyone really expect that a 1904 Morgan Dollar that grades MS66 will match an 1880-s in the same grade? Spoiler alert... H e l l has a better chance of freezing over before that happens.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Step two. You like or don’t like the coin at the present grade.
If you like the coin at the present grade and the price is workable buy the coin.
If you don’t like the coin at the present grade and a price cant be reached then pass hard. So it’s entirely possible to really like a coin BUT if it seems ambitiously graded or barely there it’s probably a bad buy if your paying for stated grade.
You can sometimes overpay for premium coins. You always overpay for over graded coins or C coins not bought appropriately.
It is what it is.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Step one. You like or don’t like the coin.
If you like the coin proceed to step 2.
Step two. You like or don’t like the coin at the present grade.
If you like the coin at the present grade and the price is workable buy the coin.
If you don’t like the coin at the present grade and a price cant be reached then pass hard. So it’s entirely possible to really like a coin BUT if it seems ambitiously graded or barely there it’s probably a bad buy if your paying for stated grade.
You can sometimes overpay for premium coins. You always overpay for over graded coins or C coins not bought appropriately.
It is what it is.
m
Not sufficiently misunderstandable. Could you over-explain just a little bit more?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Zoins said:
Micro grading is one reason I like tokens and medals. I have coins but it’s nice to not need to think about all this stuff all the time.
What do you consider to be "micro grading." Am I correct that it refers to being too critical or using more than your naked eye or 5X to examine a coin?
My dear friend, this is another example of you taking a casual and tangential remark and trying to drag a thread completely off-track. Likely, the same as both of us, he could use those terms for both. In what way whatsoever does this further the current topic? Are we about to open a debate about the best magnification for grading? Eagle knuckles on Classic Gold? I'm in, but the mere intimation of it in a thread already so egregiously disrupted seems like signaling a willingness to throw some gasoline on the next available fire.
You are correct. I posted a discussion based on this thread because I did not wish to highjack it: What is the difference between AU-55 and AU-58. I am trying to reply to both discussions.
This thread is discussing JA's podcast. He doesn't use a loupe. He and I settled "The Big Micro-Grading Dispute of 1987" in an early theoretical discussion about the MS68 grade as it applies to 3cS. Based on current populations, we were wasting our time then, and you are wasting it now. THERE IS NO DISCUSSION OF MICROGRADING in JA's podcast. @Zoins may have been considering the continuum MS66.6, MS66.7, MS66.8 and been making a philosophical point about pseudo-precision. If he calls it quasi-precision we could discuss the etymology of the dueling qualifiers. The possibilities are fascinating, even AMAZING. Even though it has less than nothing to do with JA's podcast, /Yawn
Oh look, the Mad Hatter is having a tea party.
"There's no place like home.... There's no place like home... There's no place like home... Judeeee.. wait up!"
The fact that JA does not use magnification might be due to the fact that he is evaluating the original evaluation. There is a reason magnification or florescent light is discouraged. Heck, you rarely see any dealers at a coin show using one either. If you are in the "game" you play by the rules that were $et by the players.
@Justacommeman said:
Step one. You like or don’t like the coin.
If you like the coin proceed to step 2.
Step two. You like or don’t like the coin at the present grade.
If you like the coin at the present grade and the price is workable buy the coin.
If you don’t like the coin at the present grade and a price cant be reached then pass hard. So it’s entirely possible to really like a coin BUT if it seems ambitiously graded or barely there it’s probably a bad buy if your paying for stated grade.
You can sometimes overpay for premium coins. You always overpay for over graded coins or C coins not bought appropriately.
It is what it is.
m
Unfortunately I always have to overpay for any premium coin that is not "cherrypicked."
Very poor guess. Noooooo. the reason JA is not using a loupe is the same reason @specialist and I know not to drive with him unless he is wearing major-league (for him, his usual) corrective-lenses. He's blind in the very best way that coin dealers can be blind. He is very smug about this. I have never seen him use a microscope, not on even a million-dollar coin.
Late breaking news - I rarely see any dealers at a coin show using a loupe because I only infrequently encounter strong graders who aren't near-sighted. A few others have noticed this too, but It's just a theory at this point
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Insider2 said:
I think he is saying he is a real numismatist who does not care much about the condition of the stuff he buys. More interested in their history.
Thanks for your thoughts. I would disagree with the idea that he does not care much about the condition of the stuff he buys, though. Regarding "micro-grading", I believe what this means is he has no need for a choice of 40 different grades to describe the condition of a token. I understand that the grading services do grade that way, but my experience with token dudes, as jmlanzaf has already noted, is that they don't use all the grades that the TPGs do.
@Insider2 said:
I think he is saying he is a real numismatist who does not care much about the condition of the stuff he buys. More interested in their history.
Thanks for your thoughts. I would disagree with the idea that he does not care much about the condition of the stuff he buys, though. Regarding "micro-grading", I believe what this means is he has no need for a choice of 40 different grades to describe the condition of a token. I understand that the grading services do grade that way, but my experience with token dudes, as jmlanzaf has already noted, is that they don't use all the grades that the TPGs do.
Well you and he have more experience dealing with "token dudes" than I do. The ones I knew in the past had no use for grading services.
My brain hurts trying to read this thread. We could safely delete at least half of it and nothing of value would be lost.
You are being conservative. Maybe I lean that way because I thought the podcast was straight forward or perhaps because it’s what Ive pretty much already believed it to be true. I was at the reveal “class” of CAC at ANA Colorado Summer Boot Camp. I got to ask JA a lot direct questions and was watching the “CAC” market closely from inception. I was a naysayer at the very beginning. Then I realized this was actually going to be good for me. I didn’t realize gradflation was as bad as it was. I under estimated it. I also thought it would save the value of my PQ NGC coins if they were to sticker. Not so. I had to cross those to PCGS in order to do that.
John always wanted to release the value of A/B coins from C coins. I’m sure the rapid decent of C coins and the utter glut of them on the bourse and at every major auction was more then he could imagine. It’s a problem and I don’t think the bottom is close to being in on C coins. The auction retreads and stale bourse inventory is enough to choke a horse. A very large horse. When people refer to a down market look no further then here.
m
wish they had a "love" button and not just "like". great post
@Insider2 said:
Well you and he have more experience dealing with "token dudes" than I do. The ones I knew in the past had no use for grading services.
They typically don't. Perhaps the tokens that get graded are being sent in by people who started out collecting stuff that's more normally found graded?
@Stuart said:
One of the more interesting & enlightening aspects (for me) listening to the John Albanese Podcast Interview that enters into their Stickering decision, is that CAC considers the Commercial Market Value that in their expert opinion a coin should attain in the marketplace, in combination with its Technical Meritfor the Specified Grade.
I found that interesting as well. I’d like to know how they deal with impressive toners which will likely attain substantially higher prices, but which may be weak in terms of technical merits for the assigned grade.
It’s a problem and I don’t think the bottom is close to being in on C coins. The auction retreads and stale bourse inventory is enough to choke a horse. A very large horse. When people refer to a down market look no further then here.
m
I stand my my "prediction" of.....hmm.... about a year an a half ago or so .... of...... "TWO YEARS MAX before the ax drops on the unstickered coins.
Call me crazy (the line forms on the street) but I will stick to that prediction.
"Stickered or raw"....that will be the determining factor.
I have not listened to the podcast in a few days but I remember JA saying that crackout dealers were one of the "biggest losers" due to CAC. Who else as a group would fall into the "loser" side of CAC's acceptance in numismatics?
@Gazes said:
I have not listened to the podcast in a few days but I remember JA saying that crackout dealers were one of the "biggest losers" due to CAC. Who else as a group would fall into the "loser" side of CAC's acceptance in numismatics?
The losers:
1.) Those that pay exorbitant premiums due to artificial sticker rarity. Yes, solid and PQ coins should fetch premiums but some of the premiums are not commensurate to the increase in quality IMHO. The PCGS/CAC only crowd is artificially limiting the supply of coins due to plastic and stickers, driving the prices up artificially in some cases by virtue of basic supply/demand principles. The market distortions/ manipulation and resulting premiums may not be sustainable long term;
2.) Those that hold and sell coins that are problem free and accurately graded (per JA), but are still not "A" or "B" coins;
3.) The grading services whose reputations have now been questioned and undermined by the need to have someone audit their work because of implied lack of ability to do so on their own part;
4.) The entire hobby from the collectors and money that have said "enough" and walked away. Many of you won't believe this happens, but I think you're wrong;
5.) No guarantee and this is theoretical, but quite possibly the holders of CAC coins. As CAC exerts negative market pressure on the non-stickered coins and the spread between CAC/non-CAC increases, it also constrains the prices at least somewhat for stickered coins as there must be some logical cap on the premium that collectors are willing to pay. Even Laura wrote about some of her customers questioning the premium, and she even noted that a long term customer demanded a refund on a large transaction involving a CAC coin because a non-CAC coin had sold for considerably less. He was uncomfortable with what he viewed as an exorbitant CAC premium. As this happens more and more, the premiums could go the other way causing some financial losses for those who overpaid; AND
6.) Dealers and collectors who now have extra submission costs, postage/insurance fees both ways, opportunity costs, and delayed time in selling coins as they wait for CAC submissions. Not everything stickers so there will necessarily be some losses (whether tangible or not) for coins that do not sticker.
The winners:
1.) JA/CAC/CAC shareholders;
2.) Large dealers that use it to market coins at premium prices regardless of whether deserved or not; AND
3.) Those who use CAC as a learning tool and for its intended purpose (which is not as a grading service) and those who do not fixate on plastic and stickers that pay reasonable prices based the coins and not the packaging. (We can argue whether these advantages are offset against some of the cons above).
I’ve been ruminating and formulating a hypothesis about this for a while. It’s not a simple concept, but I’ll try to explain it when I get home after work today. The basic idea to my thoughts is that there is a market perception that stickered coins are somehow better than non-stickered coins in a way that has nothing to do with grading. Said another way, there is a perception that there is something wrong with all coins that don’t get a sticker.
Comments
IDK. In my dream of having only 10 total grades, if I have 3 AU grades and 3 UNC grades, I've used up 6 out of 10 already.
I'm in favor of long and clear posts! I thoroughly enjoy reading long INFORMATIVE posts written by some of the top numismatists in the country. For example - LAURA , please give a 30min presentation about the high-end coins and workings of auctions at the FUN convention. The attendance would be out the door.
FWIW, that's what I thought you meant in the first plce.
Carry on.
Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread has given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 points that @Insider2 injected in this thread. No way I’m I telling him which ones.
Mr Snow it was nice seeing you at LB yesterday. You’re looking good
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Liked the podcast as far as the thread - interesting but will head for my bunker.
@Justacommeman said: "Rick, I agree the podcast was very good. This thread was given me a headache. I disagreed with 7 points that @Insider2 injected in this thread. No way I’m I telling him which ones."
That's surprising to read from you.
I think you could teach all of us something.
.> @Insider2 said:
I'm developing a increasingly greater sense that it's worthless to bother.
A great post by the OP of a interview that answers many simple questions and uncomplicates some misconceptions.
Then, posters like @jmlanzaf, who evidently has some awareness of his problem, continues to ..... never mind ....
m, I edited your post for clarity. I counted nine, which will likely makes the learned troll feel even more fulfilled
Are there any further developments in your experiments with The Beast on the effects of canine digestive acids upon hammered English silver? Have you ever tried a proof Roosie using a pork chop for a delivery system? 
@ColonelJessup asked: "Are there any further developments in your experiments with The Beast on the effects of canine digestive acids upon hammered English silver? Have you ever tried a proof Roosie using a pork chop for a delivery system?"
After charbroiling a beautiful commemorative I've given up on most experimentation. I'll leave it for the experts to teach me.
Is Netflix going to carry season 2 of the podcast?
Too much sulfur in the Vaseline.
Flowers, not livers!!!!!
My bad... I need an alt like @SorcerersApprentice
Nothing more to see here, folks
Micro grading is one reason I like tokens and medals. I have coins but it’s nice to not need to think about all this stuff all the time.
I'm aware that you think I have a problem. At the very least we know that OCD is part of your issue since you again feel the need to insert me unnecessarily.
Does it bother you that much that you attacked me over your misunderstanding of JA?
It's okay. I forgive you. You can forgive yourself.
Not enough drama in the podcast, but the after thread has the makings of a miniseries.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Remind me to check in with JA to see if he forgives me.
I haven't had this much fun since I worked in a psychiatric hospital. Now that NJ doesn't use electro-shock, I likely never will again
Fun thread!
My YouTube Channel
My brain hurts trying to read this thread. We could safely delete at least half of it and nothing of value would be lost.
What do you consider to be "micro grading." Am I correct that it refers to being too critical or using more than your naked eye or 5X to examine a coin?
I don't think that's what he means.
Okay...THAT'S IT !!.....
Lemme get out my CAC notes.
I do. What do you think he is saying?
I could tell you, but I like to learn what others think first. What do you think I think he's saying?
My dear friend, this is another example of you taking a casual and tangential remark and trying to drag a thread completely off-track. Likely, the same as both of us, he could use those terms for both. In what way whatsoever does this further the current topic? Are we about to open a debate about the best magnification for grading? Eagle knuckles on Classic Gold? I'm in, but the mere intimation of it in a thread already so egregiously disrupted seems like signaling a willingness to throw some gasoline on the next available fire. Could you possibly NOT respond? It would help strengthen my own resolve.
Does alcohol help a person understand this sort of thread? I don't drink, but I'm starting to wonder if it would clarify a few things......
I think he is saying he is a real numismatist who does not care much about the condition of the stuff he buys. More interested in their history.
If this represents the future of grading then it is time for another hobby. There is simply no effort to move grading in a progressive direction to reflect what has been learned and make grading what it needs to be...
Seriously... The future of grading as pontificated herein is in stiff competition with the sci-fi films from 60 years ago. And we know how that ended.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Exonumia are frequently just graded using coarse divisions. The TPGS's use the Sheldon scale, but traditionally it's just something like UNC, XF, VG, POOR. I think that's what he's referring to.
Me thinks grading is overrated. Oy Vey.
You are correct. I posted a discussion based on this thread because I did not wish to highjack it: What is the difference between AU-55 and AU-58. I am trying to reply to both discussions.
The slabs I've seen for tokens look like they are graded the same as coins - a grade abbreviation + a number.
Example: XF-40.
You are being conservative. Maybe I lean that way because I thought the podcast was straight forward or perhaps because it’s what Ive pretty much already believed it to be true. I was at the reveal “class” of CAC at ANA Colorado Summer Boot Camp. I got to ask JA a lot direct questions and was watching the “CAC” market closely from inception. I was a naysayer at the very beginning. Then I realized this was actually going to be good for me. I didn’t realize gradflation was as bad as it was. I under estimated it. I also thought it would save the value of my PQ NGC coins if they were to sticker. Not so. I had to cross those to PCGS in order to do that.
John always wanted to release the value of A/B coins from C coins. I’m sure the rapid decent of C coins and the utter glut of them on the bourse and at every major auction was more then he could imagine. It’s a problem and I don’t think the bottom is close to being in on C coins. The auction retreads and stale bourse inventory is enough to choke a horse. A very large horse. When people refer to a down market look no further then here.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That is what I said. The TPGS's use the Sheldon scale but that is not the traditional way to denote exonumia condition.
But, i'll let the OP explain what he meant, if he is so inclined.
I only listened to the interview once but I should again if I'm going to try and comment.
But @Justacommeman jogged something I heard in the front end of the podcast about the C coins being so prevalent at shows and auctions. Swirling clockwise down the drain and being regurgitated over and over.
This gives the uninformed observer the wrong impression of what is really out there.
And that really nice coins stay in strong hands longer than you think.
Good stuff.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
And just to get this our of the way......C coins exist at every grade. For my eyes it’s especially so at the 65- 68 grades. Those are where the most crack outs and upgrades seem to occur. A lot of barely there grades floating around.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This thread is discussing JA's podcast. He doesn't use a loupe. He and I settled "The Big Micro-Grading Dispute of 1987" in an early theoretical discussion about the MS68 grade as it applies to 3cS. Based on current populations, we were wasting our time then, and you are wasting it now. THERE IS NO DISCUSSION OF MICROGRADING in JA's podcast. @Zoins may have been considering the continuum MS66.6, MS66.7, MS66.8 and been making a philosophical point about pseudo-precision. If he calls it quasi-precision we could discuss the etymology of the dueling qualifiers. The possibilities are fascinating, even AMAZING. Even though it has less than nothing to do with JA's podcast, /Yawn
Oh look, the Mad Hatter is having a tea party.
"There's no place like home.... There's no place like home... There's no place like home... Judeeee.. wait up!"
I am not sure the hobby is prepared to look at coins again instead of opinions. And that starts with the host grade followed by a secondary opinion as to whether a coin is within the A, B or C spectrum.
Why don't we start with questioning whether a secondary opinion is needed at various grade levels? While I will concede grade flation is an issue, but how and why has it become the issue it is? Could it be that many gold and type coins were ridiculously graded years ago to the extend that a standard was created whereby it was simply not a reasonable standard to withstand the test of time?
So the real future or grading is about applying what has been learned in terms of mints, dates and dies associated with the production of an entire coin series. Does anyone really expect that a 1904 Morgan Dollar that grades MS66 will match an 1880-s in the same grade? Spoiler alert... H e l l has a better chance of freezing over before that happens.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Step one. You like or don’t like the coin.
If you like the coin proceed to step 2.
Step two. You like or don’t like the coin at the present grade.
If you like the coin at the present grade and the price is workable buy the coin.
If you don’t like the coin at the present grade and a price cant be reached then pass hard. So it’s entirely possible to really like a coin BUT if it seems ambitiously graded or barely there it’s probably a bad buy if your paying for stated grade.
You can sometimes overpay for premium coins. You always overpay for over graded coins or C coins not bought appropriately.
It is what it is.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Not sufficiently misunderstandable. Could you over-explain just a little bit more?
The fact that JA does not use magnification might be due to the fact that he is evaluating the original evaluation. There is a reason magnification or florescent light is discouraged. Heck, you rarely see any dealers at a coin show using one either. If you are in the "game" you play by the rules that were $et by the players.
Unfortunately I always have to overpay for any premium coin that is not "cherrypicked."
Very poor guess. Noooooo. the reason JA is not using a loupe is the same reason @specialist and I know not to drive with him unless he is wearing major-league (for him, his usual) corrective-lenses. He's blind in the very best way that coin dealers can be blind. He is very smug about this. I have never seen him use a microscope, not on even a million-dollar coin.
Late breaking news - I rarely see any dealers at a coin show using a loupe because I only infrequently encounter strong graders who aren't near-sighted. A few others have noticed this too, but It's just a theory at this point
Thanks for your thoughts. I would disagree with the idea that he does not care much about the condition of the stuff he buys, though. Regarding "micro-grading", I believe what this means is he has no need for a choice of 40 different grades to describe the condition of a token. I understand that the grading services do grade that way, but my experience with token dudes, as jmlanzaf has already noted, is that they don't use all the grades that the TPGs do.
Well you and he have more experience dealing with "token dudes" than I do. The ones I knew in the past had no use for grading services.
wish they had a "love" button and not just "like". great post
They typically don't. Perhaps the tokens that get graded are being sent in by people who started out collecting stuff that's more normally found graded?
I found that interesting as well. I’d like to know how they deal with impressive toners which will likely attain substantially higher prices, but which may be weak in terms of technical merits for the assigned grade.
It’s a problem and I don’t think the bottom is close to being in on C coins. The auction retreads and stale bourse inventory is enough to choke a horse. A very large horse. When people refer to a down market look no further then here.
I stand my my "prediction" of.....hmm.... about a year an a half ago or so
.... of......
"TWO YEARS MAX before the ax drops on the unstickered coins.
Call me crazy (the line forms on the street)
but I will stick to that prediction.
"Stickered or raw"....that will be the determining factor.
mid pricers excepted.....maybe
Since CAC does not "sticker" certain coins a prediction that the "axe will fall" on unstickered coins cannot be true.
I have not listened to the podcast in a few days but I remember JA saying that crackout dealers were one of the "biggest losers" due to CAC. Who else as a group would fall into the "loser" side of CAC's acceptance in numismatics?
The losers:
1.) Those that pay exorbitant premiums due to artificial sticker rarity. Yes, solid and PQ coins should fetch premiums but some of the premiums are not commensurate to the increase in quality IMHO. The PCGS/CAC only crowd is artificially limiting the supply of coins due to plastic and stickers, driving the prices up artificially in some cases by virtue of basic supply/demand principles. The market distortions/ manipulation and resulting premiums may not be sustainable long term;
2.) Those that hold and sell coins that are problem free and accurately graded (per JA), but are still not "A" or "B" coins;
3.) The grading services whose reputations have now been questioned and undermined by the need to have someone audit their work because of implied lack of ability to do so on their own part;
4.) The entire hobby from the collectors and money that have said "enough" and walked away. Many of you won't believe this happens, but I think you're wrong;
5.) No guarantee and this is theoretical, but quite possibly the holders of CAC coins. As CAC exerts negative market pressure on the non-stickered coins and the spread between CAC/non-CAC increases, it also constrains the prices at least somewhat for stickered coins as there must be some logical cap on the premium that collectors are willing to pay. Even Laura wrote about some of her customers questioning the premium, and she even noted that a long term customer demanded a refund on a large transaction involving a CAC coin because a non-CAC coin had sold for considerably less. He was uncomfortable with what he viewed as an exorbitant CAC premium. As this happens more and more, the premiums could go the other way causing some financial losses for those who overpaid; AND
6.) Dealers and collectors who now have extra submission costs, postage/insurance fees both ways, opportunity costs, and delayed time in selling coins as they wait for CAC submissions. Not everything stickers so there will necessarily be some losses (whether tangible or not) for coins that do not sticker.
The winners:
1.) JA/CAC/CAC shareholders;
2.) Large dealers that use it to market coins at premium prices regardless of whether deserved or not; AND
3.) Those who use CAC as a learning tool and for its intended purpose (which is not as a grading service) and those who do not fixate on plastic and stickers that pay reasonable prices based the coins and not the packaging. (We can argue whether these advantages are offset against some of the cons above).
I’ve been ruminating and formulating a hypothesis about this for a while. It’s not a simple concept, but I’ll try to explain it when I get home after work today. The basic idea to my thoughts is that there is a market perception that stickered coins are somehow better than non-stickered coins in a way that has nothing to do with grading. Said another way, there is a perception that there is something wrong with all coins that don’t get a sticker.