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Why doesn’t PCGS grade Ancients? Or do they?
USAFRETWI
Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
I’m a U.S. coin collector primarily. But these are really gaining my interest......latest pick up.
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USAFRETWI
Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
USAFRETWI
Posts: 464 ✭✭✭
Comments
I don't think PCGS certifies ancients. Most collectors of ancient coins prefer them raw. I'm guessing that one grading company is enough to satisfy a limited demand.
I definitely prefer my hammered and Ancient coins raw...
When a TPGS decides to grade a new segment they must make 100% sure that it is done right. That takes a library and "experts."
No brag just an example: Although I had been authenticating varieties, tokens, medals, etc for almost thirty years at three different TPGS, when I joined another and suggested that they do the same as every other small TPGS had been doing for decades - nothing was done. Think of it. A TPGS that claimed to be #1 did not do tokens and limited the varieties they did to perhaps less than a hundred! Thankfully, after a year or two of preparation they added tokens and expanded the variety tier.
Ancients are more complicated than tokens by far. Collectors like to hold their coins which reminds me of what turned out to be a big mistake. At INSAB (the second authentication service and the first grading service) we were approached in the early '80's to start slabbing coins we graded with a photo image inside the plastic "slab." I was totally against the idea because collectors liked to hold their coins! Boy was I wrong! Eventually, after PCGS came along we did what we should have done years before.
Ancients would require a great deal of investment for a questionable return.
Agree, ATS has it locked up in spite of no guarantees!
I'd love to have PCGS slab ancients. I think they will at some point.
But I think ATS does a fine job.
As with any series, I think you should start slow and at the shallow end of the pool. If you get burned on less tricky (and less expensive) stuff and/or if you see your stumbles as "tuition", you're fine.
On the other hand, if you really enjoy the research and academic side of numismatics, then ancients offer a deeper, more immersive subject than your Barber quarters or Jefferson nickles. Knowledge is power. And I know many of us can't think of anything we'd rather read or study about than coins. Research is part of the joy of the hobby.
And you can maximize your efforts by doing pretty deep research, AND taking advantage of the knowledge of the TPGs, AND doing business with an expert in the specific ancients you want to pursue.
Here's my siglos. I bought this raw from Harlan Berk--the authority in Lydian dawn of coinage--several years ago, and then had it graded ATS. It's hard to beat a combination like that:
--Severian the Lame
I've yet to buy a slabbed ancient.
That could change if I ever break through the 1k barrier
ATS does good work.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
You certainly gave them something to work with!
PCGS doesn't grade ancients for several reasons.
TLDR: Grading ancients well takes a lot of time, money and effort. Grading ancients badly (like ICG used to do) simply ruins your overall reputation. PCGS has chosen not to do any ancients grading, until they can afford to do it well.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
This is my opinion, though I do not collect ancients.
I miss this little jewel.
PCGS doesn't grade ancients for several reasons.
The ancients crowd generally hasn't bought into the "gotta slab 'em all" mindset that has gripped coin collecting generally in America. I would even hazard a guess that the majority of ancients collectors don't live in America.
Ancients don't really need the "protection" aspect that slabs provide. Heck, they've been buried in the ground for 2000 years, then professionally cleaned - there's not really much you can do to them that might actually hurt them.
To be considered reliable and trustworthy, you need a team of people who are competent in not only grading, but in identifying and authenticating ancient coins. This usually means needing a group of experts, each one specializing in a certain field: one for Greek, one or two for Roman, one for Celtic, one for Judaean, one for Parthian, one for Sassanian, etc. That's a lot of people you need to have on staff.
TLDR: Grading ancients well takes a lot of time, money and effort. Grading ancients badly (like ICG used to do) simply ruins your overall reputation. PCGS has chosen not to do any ancients grading, until they can afford to do it well.
Hello SAPYX,
At the risk of opening your can of worms, I would love to hear more on your critique of my grading of ancient coins during my tenure at ICG (1998-2007).
Perhaps as a collector of ancient coins, (1976-date), or as my employment with H.J. Berk (1981-1983) or as my certification of ancient coins with ANACS AND ANAAB (1984-2002, or the new ANACS (2008-2019). Perhaps it was my paltry 3 libraries on ancient coins, 5,000+ volumes acquired 1976-date.
Maybe it is just that I am one guy trying to do what a specialized team of numismatist's can only do. I must admit I use consultants on most oriental numismatics, and some medieval. I doubt the most successful ancient coin firm in this country has the specialization you mention. We all wear various hats
But I somehow have been scraping by, and by the way guaranteeing authenticity, attribution, and grading on the thousands of coins certified in the last 35 years. The only one to do so I am told.
By the way, the other ancient grading service, (similarly challenged I'm sure), has made do with only one staffer from 2010ish until the last couple years. They have more business than they can handle right now.
I'm sure your grand plan for our host would work, however I'm not sure the $100 a coin required to make it a viable entity would work. As I understand it, an exploration of the ancient certification business was made about 20-25 years ago and nothing came of it. I'm told the business model of Guaranteeing a $10,000 coin for $100 was not a workable business model based on the unique challenges of ancient coinage. Most rules and standards used for authenticating machine made coinage can be thrown out the window for ancients.
Please also keep in mind that I have to grade on a 70 point scale. The antiquated European grading of 9ish points of Fair, Good, fine, About Fine, Near very fine, Very fine, Near EF, EF, Near uncirculated, FDC does not translate well when spread out over 30 grades on the sheldon scale. Trust me when I say, Europe has seen how the new scale affects prices. Money talks and they are now listening.
Just as Europe snickered at our 70 point grading in the 1980's, ancient dealers did so at my early attempts to change opinions. Remember when ICG was the first to challenge the glass ceiling on MS,PR-70's in the 1990's?
Everyone thought we had lost our minds. Nowadays modern issues typically grade 69-70. I did not grade the bulk modern material and I thought we were loose, But it is amusing to see that everyone has joined the dance now. You can argue that the later coins are made better, and they are. However check the increase pop report numbers on 68-70 coins pre 2000, I'll bet you'll see a loosening on every front. 70's don't carry the same weight
(or price) they used to.
To sum it up SAPYX,
Please do not say a firm grades badly, or has a bad reputation unless you have personally experienced a problem. Too many times people rehash what they have heard other people complain about. We are all just trying to make a positive difference in the world with varying degrees of success. I feel personally responsible for my work and just want people to know that it is not just faceless companies you criticize.
J.P. Martin