General Consensus Question #2: Creases & Corners?

Walt_Altmen

With the rough draft officially released, it’s perfect time to ask this question.

Regardless of pre-war, vintage or modern, do you find it acceptable to remove a crease from a card even if it does not alter the card’s stock or thickness?

Private poll again as not to incite drama.

Walt_Altmen

Hoping there shouldn’t be much debate here.

doubledragon

I didn't know creases could be fixed.

JBrules

A big no on removing creases. Creases that have been removed have been known to return.

lawnmowerman

@JBrules said:
A big no on removing creases. Creases that have been removed have been known to return.

Yup. Just like a stray cat you feed, it always comes back. Next thing you know, it's using your kids sandbox as a litter box. Never again.

lawnmowerman

@doubledragon said:
I didn't know creases could be fixed.

They can be soaked and pressed or just pressed out. As stated though, they typically return.

Walt_Altmen

@lawnmowerman said:

@JBrules said:
A big no on removing creases. Creases that have been removed have been known to return.

Yup. Just like a stray cat you feed, it always comes back. Next thing you know, it's using your kids sandbox as a litter box. Never again.

Certainly don’t want the little one pressing the creases out of those!

lawnmowerman

@Walt_Altmen said:

@lawnmowerman said:

@JBrules said:
A big no on removing creases. Creases that have been removed have been known to return.

Yup. Just like a stray cat you feed, it always comes back. Next thing you know, it's using your kids sandbox as a litter box. Never again.

Certainly don’t want the little one pressing the creases out of those!

Exactly lol

doubledragon

@lawnmowerman said:

@JBrules said:
A big no on removing creases. Creases that have been removed have been known to return.

Yup. Just like a stray cat you feed, it always comes back. Next thing you know, it's using your kids sandbox as a litter box. Never again.

LOL. In our neighborhood we have a stray dog that insists on leaving little "presents" for everyone in our yards. He's very slick. I'm the one who has to clean it up in our yard. Someday I will confront him. Now is just not the time.

craig44

absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

PatsGuy5000

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

Can you elaborate on this, am not aware and have done business with PWCC

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

I see why you are upset, but why shouldn't it be up to the collector? As long as the card is accurately disclosed as conserved/altered.

@PatsGuy5000 said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

Can you elaborate on this, am not aware and have done business with PWCC

PWCC will be (?) listing cards that have been altered or "conserved" in the future. It is my understanding these cards will be labeled as such.

Walt_Altmen

Kind of shocked 2 people voted that it was ok to fix creases.

JoeBanzai

@Walt_Altmen said:
Kind of shocked 2 people voted that it was ok to fix creases.

I'm shocked that you're shocked.

edited to add; I have not voted.

craig44

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

I see why you are upset, but why shouldn't it be up to the collector? As long as the card is accurately disclosed as conserved/altered.

@PatsGuy5000 said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

Can you elaborate on this, am not aware and have done business with PWCC

PWCC will be (?) listing cards that have been altered or "conserved" in the future. It is my understanding these cards will be labeled as such.

because in the long term, we never really own any of these cards, we are only custodians. eventually, we will get tired of the hobby, get into financial trouble, move onto other things or die and the cards we ¨own¨ will be sold. that is the trouble. eventually, even our beloved PC cards will be moved along to another person and the altered cards will find a new home. it is very possible the new owner will not know about the alterations.

the only fix i can think of is to destroy such cards and remove them from circulation, or physically mark each card deemed altered. if there is just a mark on the flip, all it takes is a band saw, flat head screwdriver and a resubmission and the fraud is began all over again.

remedylane

I don't agree with fixing creases. But I also agree that it's up to the buyer/owner of the card .

My question still stands. Did PSA know the mantle was preserved/restored? If so, why no qualifier or something reflecting this? If they did not know, then a bigger door will be opened if these restorations are so good professional graders can't detect them.

Walt_Altmen

By the verbiage used in pwcc tenets, it sounds like as long as they can slip one past the goalie, everything is ok. So I presume and hope not.

doubledragon

This is pretty much a historical thing in the world of card collecting. This will change the game forever.

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

I see why you are upset, but why shouldn't it be up to the collector? As long as the card is accurately disclosed as conserved/altered.

@PatsGuy5000 said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

Can you elaborate on this, am not aware and have done business with PWCC

PWCC will be (?) listing cards that have been altered or "conserved" in the future. It is my understanding these cards will be labeled as such.

because in the long term, we never really own any of these cards, we are only custodians. eventually, we will get tired of the hobby, get into financial trouble, move onto other things or die and the cards we ¨own¨ will be sold. that is the trouble. eventually, even our beloved PC cards will be moved along to another person and the altered cards will find a new home. it is very possible the new owner will not know about the alterations.

the only fix i can think of is to destroy such cards and remove them from circulation, or physically mark each card deemed altered. if there is just a mark on the flip, all it takes is a band saw, flat head screwdriver and a resubmission and the fraud is began all over again.

I get your point, but I might want to do something for my enjoyment and not really care about what happens after I die.

Like it or not, when it comes to a persons personal property and/or MONEY, they are going to do as they please. If I send in a card to a TPG company and they destroy it, or mark it, without my permission, they are going to get sued.

If I decide my card should be destroyed, that would be fine. What if it was a high dollar card? I am sure you are going to reply that it doesn't matter, but if you bought a card and couldn't return it and it turned out to be altered, you might not feel that way.

ESPECIALLY if you could disclose that it was altered, and recoup some of your money. How about if it was one of only a few known in existence? Destroy it?

@remedylane said:
I don't agree with fixing creases. But I also agree that it's up to the buyer/owner of the card .

My question still stands. Did PSA know the mantle was preserved/restored? If so, why no qualifier or something reflecting this? If they did not know, then a bigger door will be opened if these restorations are so good professional graders can't detect them.

In my experience PSA labels cards altered as "altered". If the card is a fake or otherwise ungradeable it is returned to the submitter raw. I don't think there is a designation for preserved/restored.

Be very careful about pushing this type of question. This forum is the property of PSA. IF your posts are too critical of them, the post may be removed.

craig44

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

I see why you are upset, but why shouldn't it be up to the collector? As long as the card is accurately disclosed as conserved/altered.

@PatsGuy5000 said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

Can you elaborate on this, am not aware and have done business with PWCC

PWCC will be (?) listing cards that have been altered or "conserved" in the future. It is my understanding these cards will be labeled as such.

because in the long term, we never really own any of these cards, we are only custodians. eventually, we will get tired of the hobby, get into financial trouble, move onto other things or die and the cards we ¨own¨ will be sold. that is the trouble. eventually, even our beloved PC cards will be moved along to another person and the altered cards will find a new home. it is very possible the new owner will not know about the alterations.

the only fix i can think of is to destroy such cards and remove them from circulation, or physically mark each card deemed altered. if there is just a mark on the flip, all it takes is a band saw, flat head screwdriver and a resubmission and the fraud is began all over again.

I get your point, but I might want to do something for my enjoyment and not really care about what happens after I die.

Like it or not, when it comes to a persons personal property and/or MONEY, they are going to do as they please. If I send in a card to a TPG company and they destroy it, or mark it, without my permission, they are going to get sued.

If I decide my card should be destroyed, that would be fine. What if it was a high dollar card? I am sure you are going to reply that it doesn't matter, but if you bought a card and couldn't return it and it turned out to be altered, you might not feel that way.

ESPECIALLY if you could disclose that it was altered, and recoup some of your money. How about if it was one of only a few known in existence? Destroy it?

@remedylane said:
I don't agree with fixing creases. But I also agree that it's up to the buyer/owner of the card .

My question still stands. Did PSA know the mantle was preserved/restored? If so, why no qualifier or something reflecting this? If they did not know, then a bigger door will be opened if these restorations are so good professional graders can't detect them.

In my experience PSA labels cards altered as "altered". If the card is a fake or otherwise ungradeable it is returned to the submitter raw. I don't think there is a designation for preserved/restored.

Be very careful about pushing this type of question. This forum is the property of PSA. IF your posts are too critical of them, the post may be removed.

joe, I think the bottom line is that these guys are not performing these alterations for cards in their own PCs. the vast vast majority are done with profit in mind. you must agree that if these cards are not either taken out of circulation or in some way marked with a scarlet letter A this problem will never ever get any better. the same cards will just get broken out of holders and circulated again.

remedylane

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

I see why you are upset, but why shouldn't it be up to the collector? As long as the card is accurately disclosed as conserved/altered.

@PatsGuy5000 said:

@craig44 said:
absolutely not. this little manifesto of PWCC is just the beginning. alterations will forever be a moving target with them from now on. they will continuously be moving the line a bit further back now that they have started this ball rolling. you watch.

Can you elaborate on this, am not aware and have done business with PWCC

PWCC will be (?) listing cards that have been altered or "conserved" in the future. It is my understanding these cards will be labeled as such.

because in the long term, we never really own any of these cards, we are only custodians. eventually, we will get tired of the hobby, get into financial trouble, move onto other things or die and the cards we ¨own¨ will be sold. that is the trouble. eventually, even our beloved PC cards will be moved along to another person and the altered cards will find a new home. it is very possible the new owner will not know about the alterations.

the only fix i can think of is to destroy such cards and remove them from circulation, or physically mark each card deemed altered. if there is just a mark on the flip, all it takes is a band saw, flat head screwdriver and a resubmission and the fraud is began all over again.

I get your point, but I might want to do something for my enjoyment and not really care about what happens after I die.

Like it or not, when it comes to a persons personal property and/or MONEY, they are going to do as they please. If I send in a card to a TPG company and they destroy it, or mark it, without my permission, they are going to get sued.

If I decide my card should be destroyed, that would be fine. What if it was a high dollar card? I am sure you are going to reply that it doesn't matter, but if you bought a card and couldn't return it and it turned out to be altered, you might not feel that way.

ESPECIALLY if you could disclose that it was altered, and recoup some of your money. How about if it was one of only a few known in existence? Destroy it?

@remedylane said:
I don't agree with fixing creases. But I also agree that it's up to the buyer/owner of the card .

My question still stands. Did PSA know the mantle was preserved/restored? If so, why no qualifier or something reflecting this? If they did not know, then a bigger door will be opened if these restorations are so good professional graders can't detect them.

In my experience PSA labels cards altered as "altered". If the card is a fake or otherwise ungradeable it is returned to the submitter raw. I don't think there is a designation for preserved/restored.

Be very careful about pushing this type of question. This forum is the property of PSA. IF your posts are too critical of them, the post may be removed.

I get what you are saying. Im no nessesarily being critical. More or less just curious as to the explanation for it. In my opinion a card that is trimmed is "altered" just as a card that is restored is also altered. I think restored is just a fancy term for it.

If PSA truly didn't know, then perhaps these discussions will help them going forward in identifying things like this. I'm really not trying to be critical of anyone.

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:

joe, I think the bottom line is that these guys are not performing these alterations for cards in their own PCs. the vast vast majority are done with profit in mind. you must agree that if these cards are not either taken out of circulation or in some way marked with a scarlet letter A this problem will never ever get any better. the same cards will just get broken out of holders and circulated again.

So I buy a card from you. Skeptical of it's authenticity. You say "have it graded, if it comes back altered, I'll give you a refund". Grading company "marks" or destroys it. Where's my refund now?

MANY MANY other scenarios out there that would be a disaster. Card altering is nothing new. People will keep doing it and if they can sneak them by the TPG people they end up in our collections.

You DON'T want to hear about the conversation I had with a guy about 20 years ago who owned a printing business.

You could actually make a BETTER argument that getting them slabbed and sold as "altered" could get them out of circulation, in someone's collection. There's just no way I am going to let someone decide my card needs to be destroyed or marked. I have seen far too many problems with TPG to trust they get it right every time.

@remedylane said:

I get what you are saying. Im no nessesarily being critical. More or less just curious as to the explanation for it. In my opinion a card that is trimmed is "altered" just as a card that is restored is also altered. I think restored is just a fancy term for it.

If PSA truly didn't know, then perhaps these discussions will help them going forward in identifying things like this. I'm really not trying to be critical of anyone.

That's fine. I just wanted to let you know that plenty of very good threads have gone "poof" because things were said that PSA didn't like.

When PSA sees a card that is tampered with, it either returns it rejected or in a slab as "authentic altered".