General Consensus Question #1: Pre-war Soaking?
Walt_Altmen
Posts: 184 ✭✭✭
Do you personally think it is acceptible to soak (chemical and solvent-free process only) any pre-war card, keeping in mind that traditionally these cards were meant to be glued into albums and the hobby transitioned away from albums to where we would like to see the back and appreciate the artwork and factoids that are presented there.
General Consensus Question #1: Pre-war Soaking?
This is a private poll: no-one will see what you voted for.
0
Comments
Kept private, but my vote was C.
Just the thought makes me cringe.
And that’s your right and more than ok. I give lee way to pre-war cards considering.
And a similar Venezuelan/European/South American card soaking poll will follow.
I love these threads.
I love a good old fashioned debate.
I don't know enough about soaking to weigh in. So I have a few questions about it:
1) Is a card altered in any way after it has been soaked and then dried? (No pressing)
2) If you put two cards side by side, one upon being soaked and dried, and the other not soaked, could I tell the difference?
3) Does a card have to be pressed after it's soaked, or should it just be left on a flat surface to dry?
4) Is there any change in the color of the card's images?
Thanks to anyone who can answer these with any confidence. I guess I'd like to know more about this because I'd like to be able to spot a soaked card.
Andy
I love a good debate as well, so long as its done respectfully and peacefully. This was one of the reasons I went with the “private” function. Other was to get the most votes as possible. That way people didnt need to feel as if they had to defend their stance or open themselves up for an internet attack.
Personally, I just can't imagine any kind of liquid touching a card. I just like my cards as-manufactured.
Is "Absolutely not, soaking is altering" the catch all for things like "soaked cards should not be assigned a numerical grade, but should be slabbed authentic only"? Thanks. Looking forward to seeing the results.
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
If a card pops out of a pack with cow manure on it, the cow manure stays.
I get it! I’m ok with strictly water and ONLY for the purposes of removing album remnants off that back. The bad part is the fact that you have to “press” after said soak.
Again, Ive got a whole boatload of questions lined up, but soaking with the purposes to press out wrinkles or flatten the card to make slightly bigger is a huge eff no! But I am pretty sure those methods start off with an initial soak so the more I think about it maybe soaking is a gateway drug.
Ya might want to check across the street at net54.
Many years ago a member wrote a rather comprehensive account on soaking - I believe - with pics.
Soaking is done with distilled water - if memory serves - and then the card is dried.
I can't see how it can be detected during the grading process?
Also, we did have a member here who was a big Topps Venezuela collector. It's really popular there to paste cards in albums. This member soaked a bunch - removed the paper from the backs - and again if memory serves - successfully had them graded. I believe a bunch were the subset entitled Retirado?
Any and all forms of "affecting" a card has and will forever after draw controversy.
Me? Life's too darn short.
And 3....2....1.... this thread has lifted off. I repeat, we have lift off.
My opinion is absolutely negative on anything done to alter the look of a card. The way to see it is if a card makes it in a PSA Slab then it makes the cut, altering a card to get into a holder is not a good practice in my opinion. Now I don’t know anything about soaking or pressing but what if years later it could impact the look of a card as it was while it was slabbed, then there is an issue.
Which will eventually lead us to that pantyhose/wax consensus question somewhere on down the line.
You caught me before I could edit my post. I’m all for a pantyhose discussion 🤣
Which is why I brought up that 4.5 assigned grade in the conservation thread. From what I have read, surface wrinkles can re-emerge years after a soak and press. While a blazing 4.5, it keeps psa off the hook should a wrinkle pop back up years later, right? Because a card with a wrinkle or crease cant grade higher than a 5, right?
I didn’t actually go through that thread, I will check it out. The bottom line is I would be pretty annoyed if a surface wrinkle “Appeared” several years after I bought a slabbed card.
“pretty annoyed” is putting it very nicely. Especially on a ‘52 Mantle. Imagine pulling a beloved whatever psa 9 out of the safe one day to admire your baby and a wrinkle is now present and only getting worse by the day. One good thing about coins. They are hard to wrinkle!
After soaking, Im pretty sure you place the card in paper towels and place in between a couple of books to prevent curling until dried.
Now, I don’t know anything about “pressing”. I imagine that invloves something a little more complex and based on nothing but bad intentions from the get go. You’re not removing remnants attached to the card, you’re removing card itself.
I am visualizing starting with ANY card with chipped borders, a soak, a roller pin or maybe a vice, rinse wash repeat a couple of times and then a high-tech laser cutter or something.
If a card is curled, I usually leave it be. I have flattened out cards that are curled before, and it sometimes creates a small crease or line in the card, depending on the type of card, age of the card etc.
What comes next? "Restoring" vintage wax wrappers,wax boxes,vintage pinbacks,uniforms,bats etc. Or maybe this has been achieved already.
I have no problem with it. All you're doing is removing stuff that isn't supposed to be there in the first place.
Soaking is altering. Plain and simple
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I remember that post across the street and you are correct on all points.
As I read this thread it appears many feel soaking can be done on most vintage cards (Maybe my assumption is wrong) but soaking is generally done only on T206 cards as it appears that series used paper that accepted soaking with distilled water with no problems. And to be clear, I feel most accept soaking of T206's to remove water soluble paste that was used to put cards in scrap books. As I understand it no creases can be removed in this manner. Soaking is not a good thing for most other cards such as Goudey, Topps or any other cards as it will ruin the card.
I vote yes on soaking t206's to remove paste. I wish I would have known this 30 years ago when I past on a scrapbook full of tobacco cards that were pasted into a scrapbook. I looked through it and didnt see any Cobb's or Wagner's and moved on.
It's altering by definition. Same with "pressing" comics. Both get altered, however, when done correctly it's difficult if not impossible to catch.
I'd love to see the same question asked after each person found an album that contained tobacco cards glued into it. I'm sure many will say "it doesn't change my vote at all!" but I'd like to see them say that when they're staring at Cobbs, Wagners, WaJos, Mattys, Youngs, etc.
Arthur
I would sell the T206s if I found them with glue on them. Make thousands, and buy something that doesn't have glue all over it. It would always bother me to know glue was on them.
On the conservation of the 52 mantle, did PSA know it was a conservation? Or was it blindly submitted after the conservation was done?
Good question. I would hope they didn’t but ironically it was submitted by heritage and it’s a blazing 4.5, isn’t it?
Yep. If PSA knew, and didn't have some sort of qualifier, that would be bothersome .
Our opinions don't matter. It has been done forever, and you can't tell if it has been done. Soaked cards are in the market and in every TPG holder. Soaking usually involves cards that were pasted in scrap books when they were relatively new. The paste was just four and water mixed.
Collector of Pittsburgh Pirates cards for a slightly less stupid reason.
My Pirates Collection
You would be leaving thousands of dollars on the table.
I don't think folks understand what happens to a card when you soak it. I've soaked a lot of cards. Collecting boxing cards means buying a lot of albums from a lot of places -- Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Cuba, Britain, and even some South American countries. From my experience, soaking a card is not some magical save-all that is going to turn a poor-conditioned card into a nicely-conditioned card. The main goal is to simply remove the card from the album without causing any damage to the card's back. The vast majority of the time, the process doesn't improve the card's condition one iota.
There are variables. Obviously, you hope the glue is water-based. For me, having items from countries that were predominantly either in war or transitioning between wars meant resources were rationed and the glue folks used was the cheap water-based. But I've come across stronger glue and no amount of soaking was going to get the cards off cleanly.
As far as creases, corner wear, and other damage to the card, simply soaking and drying the card will not fix those issues. I've never had cause to soak a post-war card but I would have to imagine that it would be different based on the card stock and glossy surface. But if you're looking for damage to be fixed, the card will need to be "doctored." If you have a VG-EX card and soak it and dry it without doctoring it, it will almost certainly still be a VG-EX card.
Arthur
Licking cards is a disease and should be handled as such. 3 years in a maximum security penitentiary would most likely contribute and further enable this epidemic, not help.
Good post.
I am a on the fence where soaking is concerned. Wiping wax off of a card does not bother me one bit.
Since the thread "Alteration/Conservation", I looked into soaking and for me, this is where the "slippery slope" actually begins.
Soaking in distilled water to remove glue residue sounds fairly innocent at first, but I have read it can also be done to remove "wrinkles". The article I read said to dry/flatten the cards under pressure after soaking, and small wrinkles/creases could disappear (or be improved/reduced), this could be more of a restoration than a "cleaning" of unwanted surface material.
Do we stop at distilled water? What if that is tried, and the glue/residue is not water based, do we move on to some kind of solvent? If you justify using water to remove water based glue, why not use a liquid that works if water doesn't?
What you do with your property is your business. If a person improves his card through soaking, can you trust him to divulge this when he sells it? What if it ends up in TPG holder?
Next you could justify trimming an oversize card down by saying "it was meant to be smaller". I'll bet there are MANY cards that have "slipped through the cracks" and been holdered. I've never seen one for sale with "restored" or "cleaned" in the description.
I would also disagree completely with your statement "soaking a card is not some magical save-all that is going to turn a poor-conditioned card into a nicely-conditioned card". true, but If a card shows minimal wear and has glue and or glue and paper on the back, removing it could raise the grade (and value) tremendously.
Might not be to big of a deal if your card is a 2 with glue and is still a 2 when "cleaned", but what if you turn a 2 into an 8 (or conceivably higher)?
Absolutely.
And the wrinkle and crease removing you segued delves into “pressing” which requires much more pressure and necessary tools than the books simply needed to dry the soaked cards.
I soaked this baby for about 4 hours in apple juice. I'm licking it now.
Andy
The article instructed that the card be soaked and then placed in a book with paper on top and bottom of card. NOT more than a book.
In the end, I vote no for soaking any cards in any liquid.