@drei3ree said:
"After locating images from the Wolfson auction, we were able to determine that the coin in our offices was not the coin that was stolen from the DuPont family,” explained Montgomery.
I know that I should just accept this statement from NGC's President, but the whole provenance issue still bothers me...
The "Discoverer" says that when he bought the 54-s he believed it was a fake, and that "He had shown it to a few collectors and dealers at a recent coin show, but everybody said they thought it was a fake."
So, he knows enough about the 54-s to believe it's fake. And, same for the "collectors and dealers" that he supposedly showed it to. BUT, no one mentioned or thought about the DuPont coin... it Just doesn't pass the smell test.
I hate to admit this BUT, if I were asked to grade that coin I would not have had a clue that is was anything except a circulated "S" Mint $5 Liberty! Furthermore, if I were not a professional authenticator and was given the coin as a gift, as soon as I saw the price in the Redbook I would have POSSIBLY THOUGHT the coin just could not be "real."
That takes care of the owner and what he knows.
As to the dealers who saw it: In my experience, 70% of the dealers in this country could not "authenticate-themselves-out-of-a-paper-bag" (inside joke) at a reliable rate and with modern the state-of-the-art counterfeits the percentage goes over 98%. Thank your lucky stars there are TPGS the next time you fuss about one of them for a "label error."
So, he knows enough about the 54-s to believe it's fake. And, same for the "collectors and dealers" that he supposedly showed it to. BUT, no one mentioned or thought about the DuPont coin... it Just doesn't pass the smell test.
You are ASSUMING they didn't think about it. Just because they didn't mention it or the reporter didn't record it doesn't mean it was never discussed.
@btcollects said:
So, in 50 years, when a dipped and stripped 1893-cc proof dollar, a proof 1894-s dime, an unc willow tree 6p, and a lightly circulated 1794 dollar emerge in the wild, found in a desk with an eye-rolling tale and no provenance, we'll all be cool with that?
If the answer is yes, it's open season.
If NGC or PCGS compares the found coins to the stolen coins and concludes they are NOT the same coins, we will most definitely be cool with that.
Flip your question around: should every damaged/polished 1794 dollar that enters the marketplace from tomorrow until the end of time be considered stolen?
The question WAS raised about the 1854-S. YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE EXPERT CONCLUSION.
Is the earth truly spherical? I know a lot of people claim to have proven that it is but... why should I believe them? It's good to question these things.
NGC and PCGS want to get the best and rarest in their holder. ITS GOOD FOR BUSINESS! If they make a mistake (and it can be proven!), they have insurance.
@Insider2 said: I hate to admit this BUT, if I were asked to grade that coin I would not have had a clue that is was anything except a circulated "S" Mint $5 Liberty! Furthermore, if I were not a professional authenticator and was given the coin as a gift, as soon as I saw the price in the Redbook I would have POSSIBLY THOUGHT the coin just could not be "real."
That takes care of the owner and what he knows.
Exactly, you'd look in the Redbook to try to figure out what you had!
He said he bought it from some guy, and did so assuming it was a fake. What price do you ask/pay for a random $5 gold coin, that's probably fake, and may not even be gold. Gotta be less than $300...and if I wasn't sure it was gold or didn't think it's an ultra rare copy (which would mean I also would know about DuPont), why would you want it? What's the chance both parties had no idea what they were doing, but did know enough to call it fake???
I posted this in the longer thread and just wanted to reiterate it here. I have no dog in the fight but my armchair quarterback take is that there are similarities between the coins:
There's a copy of the catalog on the Newman Portal which looks like it was scanned a bit differently, adding some contrast:
I did a bit of quick Photoshopping to see if anything jumped out when colors are inverted. This has helped me match old plates of ancient coins. Here's an animated GIF I made of the new specimen and the Wolfson coin: both images are at 100% opacity. I highlighted what I think are some similarities but will defer to experts on the series.
(One other possible area of note is equidistant between the first T in STATES and the eagle's wing)
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
@Aegis3 said:
The time to "only ask questions" is over. Remember, it's been auctioned, with a 6-page description, discussing the known examples. I'm not saying you have to agree with the conclusions stated, but there are more than assertions to suggest that the new coin and the Wolfson coin are not the same, and if you have questions about the provenance, you have to deal with those conclusions and not just think it is a merely open question anymore.
PS: the coin has crossed over, not that I care about it.
It is never the time to stop asking questions
It is never the time to stop asking informed questions, or those based on current knowledge (not necessarily agreement with).
After a while, those based in part on apparent ignorance of current information (no ethical conclusion should be drawn from that word) do not contribute nor rebut the current information known.
How many dies? I presume one. How many coins off that die? A few hundred? Seems impossible to have differences in the die...so that leaves strike pressure to cause the date to look like that?
Obviously the angle part of the 4 was clogged in the die for part of the short production run.
Unless of course someone wishes to claim that the weakness on the 4 is proof of some sort of conspiracy!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
I hate to admit this BUT, if I were asked to grade that coin I would not have had a clue that is was anything except a circulated "S" Mint $5 Liberty! Furthermore, if I were not a professional authenticator and was given the coin as a gift, as soon as I saw the price in the Redbook I would have POSSIBLY THOUGHT the coin just could not be "real."
That takes care of the owner and what he knows.
As to the dealers who saw it: In my experience, 70% of the dealers in this country could not "authenticate-themselves-out-of-a-paper-bag" (inside joke) at a reliable rate and with modern the state-of-the-art counterfeits the percentage goes over 98%. Thank your lucky stars there are TPGS the next time you fuss about one of them for a "label error."
You are ASSUMING they didn't think about it. Just because they didn't mention it or the reporter didn't record it doesn't mean it was never discussed.
If NGC or PCGS compares the found coins to the stolen coins and concludes they are NOT the same coins, we will most definitely be cool with that.
Flip your question around: should every damaged/polished 1794 dollar that enters the marketplace from tomorrow until the end of time be considered stolen?
The question WAS raised about the 1854-S. YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE EXPERT CONCLUSION.
Is the earth truly spherical? I know a lot of people claim to have proven that it is but... why should I believe them? It's good to question these things.
Smitten with DBLCs.
NGC and PCGS want to get the best and rarest in their holder. ITS GOOD FOR BUSINESS! If they make a mistake (and it can be proven!), they have insurance.
Exactly, you'd look in the Redbook to try to figure out what you had!
He said he bought it from some guy, and did so assuming it was a fake. What price do you ask/pay for a random $5 gold coin, that's probably fake, and may not even be gold. Gotta be less than $300...and if I wasn't sure it was gold or didn't think it's an ultra rare copy (which would mean I also would know about DuPont), why would you want it? What's the chance both parties had no idea what they were doing, but did know enough to call it fake???
Sorry, just processing.
How many people here have a copy of the Wolfsen sale? I picked one up after this coin was found. Hard to conclude anything from the image in there.
I posted this in the longer thread and just wanted to reiterate it here. I have no dog in the fight but my armchair quarterback take is that there are similarities between the coins:
There's a copy of the catalog on the Newman Portal which looks like it was scanned a bit differently, adding some contrast:
I did a bit of quick Photoshopping to see if anything jumped out when colors are inverted. This has helped me match old plates of ancient coins. Here's an animated GIF I made of the new specimen and the Wolfson coin: both images are at 100% opacity. I highlighted what I think are some similarities but will defer to experts on the series.
(One other possible area of note is equidistant between the first T in STATES and the eagle's wing)
Another:
It is never the time to stop asking informed questions, or those based on current knowledge (not necessarily agreement with).
After a while, those based in part on apparent ignorance of current information (no ethical conclusion should be drawn from that word) do not contribute nor rebut the current information known.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Well, I can see why they originally thought it was fake
That 4 looks super funky.
Weird notch or chip to the left of the 8, too.
What would completely fascinating is if this discovery coin could be attributable to John C. Fremont.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
How many dies? I presume one. How many coins off that die? A few hundred? Seems impossible to have differences in the die...so that leaves strike pressure to cause the date to look like that?
Very odd
Well, here’s the Smithsonian example.
Obviously the angle part of the 4 was clogged in the die for part of the short production run.
Unless of course someone wishes to claim that the weakness on the 4 is proof of some sort of conspiracy!
Maybe they are all Russian fakes
Date wise, the Smithsonian piece matches better with the DOAL than either does to the Pogue coin.
Maybe some were altered from 1851-S half eagles!
Ed. S.
(EJS)
SFBM opened in April of 1854
On April 19th the Coiner delivered
260 Eagles, 268 Half Eagles
April 20th 246 Quarter Eagles