Why are rough cuts not considered damage?
craig44
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This question is based on the other rough cut thread. Now, I own many rough cut op c cards and some rough cut topp s cards. I also have some graded opc cards that do not exhibit rough edges. They are generally viewed as not damaged and are usually are given a free pass during grading. I realize the rough cut defect is just viewed as part of the manufacturing processes.
Now why are other common manufacturing defects from the 60's-80's era cards not given the same pass? Things like fish eyes, the pimples/dimples commonly seen on the surface or even centering can very commonly plague certain issues.
What are your thoughts?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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Comments
Rough cuts are a different issue vs print defects because virtually all OPC pack pulled cards from ths era exhibit at least some degree of a rough cut whereas a much smaller percentage of cards exhibits print defects like fish eyes and dimples (as seemingly common as those issues were). This was due to the primitive cutting techniques employed by OPC in the factory, specifically the use of airplane tension wire to cut the sheets of cards. I do understand that rough cuts do not appeal to all collectors, but if you are an OPC collector, the rough cut is a thing of beauty and what you want to see on a card from this era. I'd expect an OPC card with no sign of a rough cut to be potentially sheet cut, which is another debate altogether.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Well said grote15.
I agree that the rough cut of O Pee Chee cards actually does add appeal for me. I guess I collect in the reverse of most as I collect OPC baseball, but Topps hockey.
I've often had the same questions. I understand the theory of OPC using primitive cutting techniques as to why they aren't viewed as damaged. But I've seen many other brands with rough cuts not be dinged either.
I am currently collecting1948 leaf boxing, and lots of them having printing defects. I ALWAYS get dinged for it on grading. Couldn't it be said that in 1948 they were using primitive printing techniques?
Does anyone a photo of the card-cutting machines used for OPC? I've always been curious to see these.
Andy
That's sort of what I was thinking. I know 75 minis are plagued with oc, should not an exception be made for those as it is a known manufacturing issue?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have looked online as well but with no luck. I am also curious. I know they used wires
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think all cards produced during the 1980s and earlier were cut with little attention to quality control. I don't know enough about 1948 boxing cards to comment on that particualr issue, but with OPC cards from the 1970s, at least, the rough cut is not considered (for purposes of grading) a defect as much as an attribute.
And lest one think that getting high grades on 1970s OPC cards is easy, the degree of difficulty with these cards, despite the rough cut pass, is very high making it much tougher to pull 9s and 10s (or even 8s) out of the pack vs their Topps counterparts, at least in my experience. To pull a single card with even half decent centering out of a pack was quite a feat, as anyone who has opened enough 1970s OPC wax packs will surely attest.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
No, because with 1975 minis, there are many cases in which the cards are actually very well centered. It's just that those cases are not often sold but instead kept sealed or opened. And while it is certainly very difficult to pull mint 75 minis from the pack, it is far more a frequent experience than pulling 1970s OPC cards without at least some evidence of a rough cut from the pack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
1948 Leaf Rocky Graziano= Legendary😉
Sucks knowing I'll have the set minus that card lol.
My guess was that they enlisted the help of hungry roaches.
Back in the 80s, I was going to sleep one night and heard a strange crunching noise coming from across the room. Not being overly concerned, I fell asleep. The next day, I was thumbing through the cards that were piled up on my dresser. That's when I saw the horror. My 83, Topps, Sandberg rc was now partially an OPC thanks to a roach needing a sugar fix. I'm guessing it smelled the sugary gum residue and decided to Chow down. About an inch long section of the edge had a bunch of bite marks. I never did find that roach but after that, I was sure to take out my vengeance on any I came across lol
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Don't feel bad, there's cards out there that I will never touch either. It hurts, but we did all we could.
The word “factory” gets used loosely no matter the manufacturer all the time when referencing initial production. Not being a OPC collector or paying any attention to them until very recently I can’t help but think of a moonshine still in some rednecks backyard than I do an actual factory.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
When the end of the world comes, only 2 species will survive it. roaches, and lawyers.😉
Zombie roaches vs zombie lawyers in a battle for world dominance. I wonder who will win?? Wait a minute...nobody really cares hahaha
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Rough cuts are given a pass on early 50s Topps too. Instead of blades it is my understanding that vibrating wires were used to cut the cards. My conjecture is that upon magnification the cutting technique allows for no edge that is smooth so they decided not to define at what point it is considered an issue.
Does anyone know if sheets were cut with wires one at a time, or if multiple sheets were stacked and then cut? Also, when the sheet was laid flat, we're all 132 cards cut at once, or were only columns cut and then rows? Just trying to wrap my mind around the process
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Same here, Craig. I've always been interested in the cutting process for any card manufacturer.
Andy
The sheets were not cut individually but I'm not sure how many at a time were cut. Back then, efficiency and production quickness trumped quality control.
From what I've heard they also used the wires until they so dull they could no longer effectively cut the sheets which is why some OPC cards have more pronounced rough cuts than others.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I always thought a card with a rough cut would not be able to achieve a 10. Not ALL OPC's have rough cuts. I would reserve a 10 for one that had no imperfections.
That is incorrect. PSA does not penalize (and rightfully so) for rough cuts on 1970s OPC cards as that is the way the cards were cut in the factory and came out of the pack. Most OPC collectors love the rough cut and frankly speaking I would be wary of any OPC cards that did not exhibit any evidence of a rough cut.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have OPC cards in my collection with little no rough cut, PSA graded, and appear to be unaltered.
Then I see a card that looks like it was cut with a chain saw getting a 10 and wonder how that can happen when the same card in mint condition with little or no rough cut comes along and gets a 9 or even a 10.
Years ago I worked at a place where I used a small industrial shear to cut all kinds of material, including paper. If you put too much into the shear it would damage the edges and give you a rough cut, sometimes even "welding" the edges together. When I was in a hurry one time, I put too much in and the boss told me to knock that off, it was the INCORRECT way to do the job.
This place also did printing (printed circuits) and if you worked in certain areas, you had to inspect your panels for defects that could make rejects. A "fish eye" can be caused by garbage on the film or silkscreen etc.
PSA penalizes a card (sometimes) with "fish eyes" for this production error, and I would too for the rough cut.
BTW this place ran 24-7 for quite a few years, so we were pumping out the product at a very high volume. Quite similar to how cards are produced, I would imagine.
To ME it seems like this should penalize the card. I know, lots of people like the rough cuts (foolishly) assuming this somehow PROVES authenticity.
My cards pictured here have minimal roughness and graded a 9. I am happy with that grade and wouldn't have been upset with a 10, but I feel that a severe rough cut should disqualify a card from 10 consideration.
I figured posting this would irritate some, and wasn't going to post, but decided when I saw the OPC 10 that looked (to me) horrible.
The Killebrew is a beautiful card but if you take a closer look you can still see the evidence of the rough cut on more than one side.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Same with the ‘65 team card it is there on the top and the bottom.
I prefer cards that look like yours than some that are extremely rough cut - but I think it would be difficult to decide at what point it is bad enough for a deduction.
Yes you can. Evidence of a rough cut is one thing, evidence of cutting by chain saw, quite another.......for me.
The Team card I thought might get a 9 the Killebrew I figured would be a 7-8. NEVER thought it could get a 9.
You must have not read my post, or I didn't say it very well.
I'll try to clarify. I think a rough cut should be treated like any other manufacturing defect, if it's hardly noticeable, a 9 or MAYBE a 10 could be in order. A card with a large print "dot" or significant rough cut should not be eligible for a 10 in my opinion.
I could agree with that joe. many cards are given a pass as they are ¨expected¨ to have a rough cut. in reality, it is a manufacturers defect.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Spot on. And this is the exact reason that PSA doesn't penalize for OPC rough cuts.
Collectors may disagree with that policy but it is in place for a valid reason.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
To me, at some point, like any other defect, a rough cut becomes ugly. The Twins Team card I posted is fine, although I would NEVER give it a 10. The Killebrew looks overgraded to me.
If ALL of the OPC's were cut horribly, that would be one thing. Some are just ugly, a 10 shouldn't be ugly or a 9 either.
If it doesn't bother you, I am certainly not saying you can't accept or even enjoy a rough cut, just saying it's a flaw in my eyes.> @brad31 said:
That's why they are professional graders, shouldn't be that tough to come up with a guide. Centering can be subjective.
Print "dots" can be and focus as well.
Thank you, it is a nice one! All four sides have some rough cut. BTW no 10's ;-)
Imo it should be a qualifier. At a certain point an off center card is so bad it's ugly and affects the grade. Should be the same with a severe rough cut .
I understand why some don't care for the rough cuts. And those cards cut in the factory when the wires became too dull to continue will exhibit a greater degree of rough cut than others, but for most OPC collectors, that is also part of the appeal.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I get both sides.
I am not good at grading heavily rough cut cards. Hard to know what they are looking for when you don't sub them much.
Some are so far from a standard razor sharp card that I am generally going after that I just don't have enough confidence to try.
I love pack fresh 1970's OPC rough cuts.
True. And the cards with print dots were when there was a mistake with the printing.
Not the same thing, though, as the rough cut on OPC cards was far more pervasive than print dots. Not even a close comparison, really. That is why PSA downgrades for one and not the other when grading.
I know you don't care for the rougher cuts, Joe, but it is what it is, and the majority of OPC card collectors do like them.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am an avid O-Pee-Chee collector, and I don't mind when they are cut cleanly, as long as I can tell they're not sheet-cut. However, my preference is summed up as follows: The rougher the cut, the more beautiful the card.
The not so nice OPC rough cut with wings at the bottom
Here is a nice version of the rough cut!
That Rude makes me cringe. The Schmidt card is oh so satisfying!
I love the rough cuts. It's especially awesome on the 1954 Topps Aaron RC. That uniform rough edge.
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Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
Since no two rough cuts are identical it gives the card a unique signature to identify the card in case it's lost or stolen. It's not an altered card since it came from the factory that way and it's common for that era. If you trimmed it now you have ruined the card. Rough cuts assure that card wasn't trimmed so they do have their advantages.
I like rough cuts too for some reason.
This is a good thread. What about min size? I have cards I've pulled straight from unopened garner this dreaded designation. Not evid trim, mind you. Cut small from the factory (I assume). I am just wondering why this "defect" is dinged so harshly? BTW - I have resubbed many of these in the past and some came back with a grade. Min size (to such a slight degree) doesn't bother me. What does the board think? I am curious to hear.
For anyone that is still interested, right around the 15 min mark of this podcast they talk about O Pee Chee rough cuts, they even put up a picture of an older cutting machine:
Very good. Precisely. The 52-56 Topps cards were OPC produced as well, with that typical longitudinal edge vibrating wire-rough cut that acted like a jig-saw.
The reason why when stacked flush, the long edges of the cards look like a freshly saw cut block of wood, which is exactly the way the stacks of series from the Mr. Mint 1952 case find looked!
from what sworn ive read, OPC cards with minimal to no rough cut were simply cards cut when the wires were freshly replaced, sharper and not dulled from the days use. the rougher the cut, the duller the wire was and the later in the day it was cut.
myslabs.to/smzcards
That's not entirely accurate. The cut of OPC cards out of the pack is different even when the wires were freshly replaced. I've opened hundreds of 70s OPC packs over the years and there's invariably at least one side that exhibits what most would categorize as a rough cut.
However, I would agree that the rough cuts grew more pronounced the longer the wires were in use. It's just the way these cards were cut at the factory. As an OPC collector, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In the video I just posted the rough cuts alegedly ococcurred when OPC employees were given bonuses for producing higher volumes of cards to ship. They ended up putting more sheets in the cutting machine and the blade ended up tearing through the stack instead of a cleaner cut that would have been the case if a normal thickness of sheets was loaded.
this is pretty much it from the closely held pics i've seen.
It is so interesting to me that the hobby beliefs diverge when it comes to research and historical record versus subjective theories. Photos of the slitter at the OPC plant in 1970 is pretty clear evidence on the way OPC cut its cards.
In the attached interview, Bobby Burrell speculates that the blue lines were from a secondary print run, as it would have been very unlikely that OPC would have corrected the lines after starting the presses.
I always imagined that sheets were cut one at a time. Knowing now that they were cut 20-30 sheets at a time made me rethink what I was seeing when I look at vintage Parkhurst or OPC hockey cards. It's just like cutting too many pieces of paper at once in an average guillotine style paper cutter. The thicker the stack of paper, the rougher the cut.
Nathanael