Is this yet another miss-attributed HK-854??
keets
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The restrikes of the 1776 Continental Dollar can be hard to sort out(and maybe even hard to know what the proper term for them is, but let's please not get hung up on that). The first reproductions from 1876 were done by Dr. Montroville Dickeson, some later ones were done with the same dies by Thomas Elder around 1917 and still others with the same dies were done in the early 1960's, by Bashlow and then Bowers.
It is no wonder there is confusion.
Mssrs. Hibler and Kappen made a note in their seminal work "So-Called Dollars" to help us sort things out, it is seen here:
--- NOTE: In 1962, 7,200 White Metal restrikes were issued by the current owners of the dies, Empire Coin Company, owned by Q. David Bowers. The medals were minted by John Pinches & Sons, Ltd., of England. Empire Coin die varieties can be attributed by a small die gouge above the O of Continental in the denticles and a diagonal scratch below the C in Continental. Empire Coin Company then sold the dies to Robert Bashlow, who produced 2,000 Silver, 3,000 Goldine and 5,000 Bronze restrikes, together with "a few trial pieces in various metals." He later announced that "dies have already been donated to the Smithsonian Institution..." Thickness of these White Metal restrikes is approximately 2 1/2 mm. as compared with 3 mm. thickness of Dickeson piece, No. 854. Silver restrikes by Bashlow have small S on reverse and are approximately 2 3/4 mm. in thickness (no S on No. 852); Goldine and Bronze restrikes are approximately 2 1/2 mm. thick
Notice mention of the "die gouge" and "diagonal scratch" as well as mention of the thickness, 3mm for the Dickeson issues and 2-1/2 for the subsequent copies. This should make it easy to sort out. Perhaps not.
There is currently an eBay listing for a PCGS encapsulated HK-854, https://ebay.com/itm/1876-SC-1-PCGS-MS-67-TOP-POP-Continental-Currency-White-Metal-Re-Strike-HK-854/352577286417?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57475%26meid%3D13c23cd2634542989a17124a30f48844%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D293008954413%26itm%3D352577286417&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851. Happily, there is a TrueView of this medal. Even in the small pictures the diagnostics are clearly visible. I have noted other miss-attributed medals and posted them here along with a suggestion that PCGS, NGC, Stack's, Heritage, etc. all need to start measuring the thickness of these medal. It needs to be included on an insert and added to a description if the medal is raw. The consequences are clear: we have a $150 slabbed example lised at $7,500 Dollars and the potential for someone to get the shaft.
Al H.
Answers
Robert Jesinger put together this great comparison photo. He came up with this while reading @CaptHenway's 2 page article in the 1980 Numismatist on page 1624.
Of note, he mentions "published thickness figures are unreliable" so it may be worthwhile to have more discussion before using this as a hard diagnostic.
http://www.so-calleddollar.com/discussions/topic/continental-dollar-restrikes-hk-852-to-hk-862/
Jeff Shevlin also has an article on these in:
So-Called Dollar Collectors' Club Journal, Feb 2006, Vol No. 1, Issue No. 1
http://www.so-calleddollar.com/wp-content/themes/scdollar/assets/pdf/55551_SoCalledBookletLOW.pdf
The organization of this in HK is a bit confusing because there are strikes done at 4 times:
But only Bowers is mentioned in the listings.
If we break them apart, we have:
Dickeson / Elder
Bowers
Bashlow
Also, reorganizing the information in HK gives:
Bowers:
Bashlow:
Since HK doesn't distinguish between Dickeson original replicas and Elder restrikes, the photos posted by Jesinger may be the most useful public reference.
With the information above, including the table detail and die gouge between C in Continental and F in Fugio, this looks to be HK-854a.
This is currently listed as HK-854, pop 0/1/0 @ 67 at PCGS
HK-854a is pop 11 at PCGS, all 66 or lower, so pop 11/0/0 @ 67.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36816346
Here's a QDB HK-854a to compare.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/33185638
Here are images of Dickeson's original (HK-854) from Stack's to compare. This is a NGC MS62 PL which sold for $1,140.00 at Baltimore last year (October 2018).
it is worth noting that Tom DeLorey has reminded us on several occasions that the Dickeson issues all tended to use thicker planchets. this would be the Copper and White Metal issues. over time I came to be in agreement with him due to information I have found online and looking at a lot of medals struck by the sources mentioned. since there is clear confusion that is repeated by the TPG's and auction venues, why won't they measure the thickness and note it on the insert or description?? clearly, a thinner/thicker planchet would help distinguish who the issuer is.
another point might be how many obverse dies were used to strike all the various issues at the three different times involved. from my reckoning there are at least two and maybe three. still another point that would refute the assertion of Mr. Jesinger is as simple as striking pressure. the detail in the area he notes is so subtle that it would/wouldn't show with a simple weaker strike.
It seems it’s at least worth discussing Robert Jesinger’s observations with him instead of dismissing them without investigation. His observations may be more recent. The referenced article by Tom is from 1980 while Robert’s post is from 2019, a 39 year difference. Has Tom studied these more recently?
As for the detail on the table. It should be easy to distinguish die polish from a weak strike by looking at other devices and letters on the face.
Just ran across this HK-854. The table diagnostic looks pretty good on this one.
To compare strike, the Continental Currency letters and sun on the obverse along with the rings on the reverse look pretty strong in both this one and the one in the OP.
I was looking at that about 10 minutes ago, then I e-mailed the seller of the PCGS MS67 that's in the OP. I wonder if he'll reply.
I hope you get a response. Good job on the Stack's take down.
The NGC PhotoVision is the first time I looked close enough to see the first T in CONTINENTAL looks double struck... very cool.