Did I just discover that the Topps Dice Game cards are from 1963 instead of 1961?
frankhardy
Posts: 8,097 ✭✭✭✭✭
I don't want to go out on a limb and say this definitively....but I will ask the question......did I just discover that the 1961 Topps Dice Game cards are actually from 1963?
So....as many of you know, I am a Cardinals team set collector. Like most advanced collectors, I have the impossible Dice Game cards on my want list. Before this evening, my list included the Stan Musial and the Bill White. Of course, I will probably never own those 2 cards, but it is nice to dream, right?
This evening, I get a text from a fellow Cardinals collector asking if I had seen the current Mile High Auction with the Dice Game Bill White and Dick Groat. I told him, no, but that I would check them out. Then, I said that Groat was a Pirate in 1961. He sent me a picture of the Bill White and also the Dick Groat. I looked real close, and sure enough, Dick Groat was in a Pirates uniform....but....an "STL" was painted on his hat! Whoa! Groat didn't play for the Cardinals until 1963. So, I did a little research and discovered that Dick Groat was traded to the Cardinals on November 19, 1962.
To me, that would totally rule out these cards being from 1961. There is only a small window for them to be produced in 1962 (November 19th - December 31st). It looks to me that these cards were released in 1963. I have never heard anyone talk about this before. Am I off my rocker?
Here is the Mile High Auction -
http://www.milehighcardco.com/1961_Topps_Dice_Game_Dick_Groat_SGC_2_GOOD-LOT62671.aspx
Shane
Comments
Great observation Shane. I only have one, Kaline. Looks like great chance to knock two off your list
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Al
Haha! I would probably need to sell off most of my collection to get them!
Shane
From the article 'TOPPS INSERT, TEST AND SUPPLEMENTAL BASEBALL ISSUES 1949-1980"
By David Hornish,
"Perhaps taking a cue from the success of the APBA baseball game, Topps produced this black and white set in 1961. While the Topps name does not appear anywhere on the product, the quality of the cards and the typefaces used clearly mark these as a Topps product. At 2 1/2" x 3 1/2", they also have the same dimensions as regular issue 1961 cards. One player per position from each league is included and while not all are superstars, every player was an All Star at one time or another. These cards are extremely rare and the Mantle card is probably the holy grail of all Topps cards.. Of course, considering that it sells in the mid to high four figures, not too many people could afford one anyway. That is, provided more than one exists: in 1985 only one known set had been reported, along with a handful of singles. It is doubtful this set was ever legitimately released based on the low number of extant copies. In fact, when Topps issues are this scarce I have to think that Woody Gelman was involved in their introduction to the hobby."
I would guess that with a set this rare you will never know for sure.
Certainly hard to imagine the set being from '61 with a player who wasn't on the team until '63.
Not sure if this is current but Mr. Hornish's email was dsh46@aol.com
He might know.
That's a very astute observation regarding the Cardinals insignia relative to when he signed with them. In addition does that also look like an airbrushed Pirate uniform he's wearing?
I'd be curious when this set was first catalogued. (I'm guessing in the '70s.) I wonder if whomever did so did it with the idea that it was a "circa" 1961 set...and the hobby just continued to refer to it as a '61 without really confirming it. True though, these cards have always been so scarce that studying them one by one has been a challenge.
Check out the entry from January 19th
http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/
IMF
I go to Dave's Topps archive blog occasionally. I did not see that post originally but skimmed over it just now. I also tried contacting him last night with no answer as of yet.
In his blog I did notice that he had narrowed it down to either 1962 or 1963. However he did have Dick Groat on the Pittsburgh Pirates with an asterisk beside it. The Dick Groat card must be so rare that there aren't any pictures of it floating around. To me the Cardinals logo on the Dick Groat hat solidifies this set as 1963. However there is the possibility of a late 1962 issue since Dick Groat was traded on November 19th.
Shane
I saw this retro card and immediately thought of this two and a half year old thread. Looks like the Topps company doesn't even know when the set was issued. How did they miss this thread? This was newsworthy stuff!
Shane