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Insider2
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I'm getting sick and tired of hearing or reading that someone cannot tell the difference between a MS/PR-70 and one that is only a MS/PR-69. IMHO, this is the EASIEST grading "line" of any of them to define!
Anyone disagree with my opinion? If you do, tell us why. It would also be helpful if the "experts" here tell us how they determine the difference.
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I won't disagree....(I actually LOOKED at my few 69 and 70 coins within the last week, and found enough imperfections on the 69's that weren't on the 70's to convince myself there is a difference.)
The PROBLEM is that I doubt you'll find a published requirement for 69 or 70 anywhere that a simple collector can use as a guide! If you put that in our hands, there will probably be fewer complaints. (Or more...hard to tell).
Added: Had another thought:
I think part of the issue isn't that people can't, or couldn't if they tried, find a difference. It's that in most cases the difference is so small, that the average collector doesn't REALLY care. If the price difference is extreme between 69 and 70, heck, I'll buy the 69 every time!
This is mostly academic to me as I don't really collect coins in either grade. If you see absolutely nothing wrong, the grade is 70. If you do see something (anything!), the grade is something else.
No problem here.
The difference is my 70's come back 69.
My electron microscope allows me to check the proper arrangement of the atoms that make up the coin.
I might agree with you if coins had to be perfect in order to qualify for a grade of 70. But they don’t and I disagree with you.
I believe that it can be just as difficult to estimate which imperfect 69 coins might grade 70 as it is to distinguish between a 67 and a 68, a 66 and a 67 and so on.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’ve seen ms-70 modern silver eagles with a spec “Flaw” on the fields and is still a 70. I’ve seen perfect “Flawless” silver eagles graded 69.
So I kinda have a problem understanding how that can be. Just sayin.
I can tell usually.
I think 68 to 69 is much tougher!
My YouTube Channel
No problem here either. If it says 69 on the holder, its 69. If it says 70, its 70.
If it is raw, it's a chinese counterfeit.
If I buy a modern coin, which is very seldom, I opt for the 69 if there is any savings to speak of. To me, the qualitative difference is meaningless, and, sorry modern guys, pretty silly.
You are a coin dealer and THAT plus the commercial standards followed by the TPGS's is (IMO) the source of the blurred "line."
Tommy, The standards for MS/PR-70 are PUBLISHED in the ANA Grading Guide. Hopefully you have a copy and will read it.
It sounds as if you’re acknowledging a “blurred line” - as well you should 😉. If that’s the case, why is that line easier to distinguish than the ones between other pairs of consequitive numerical grades?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's like saying the standards for MS-65 are published, and everyone should be able to identify a 65 without question!
No, there is interpretation involved. There always is. (I mean, why do some MS-70 coins not cross from one service to the other?!) My suggestion is more in line with Mr. Feld's observation. At what point is a tick too big, or in the wrong place, to prevent a 70?
Guess if you look at enough coins, you might get a good idea where that "blurred line" is. But that line is more-or-less still a mystery to most, and might be moving too! A moving blurred line.
@MFeld said: "It sounds as if you’re acknowledging a “blurred line” - as well you should 😉. If that’s the case, why is that line easier to distinguish than the ones between other pairs of consequitive numerical grades?"
I don't have a blurred line at all! I'm acknowledging that something that is extremely easy to differentiate (read the published standards) has become "blurred" to some folks for many reasons. Perhaps it MAY be due to people/companies that MAY be able to profit from any ambiguity they can add to the grading standards.
While I cannot think of any people/companies who do this, something has made the 69/70 line blurred.
An MS70/PR70 coin upon several resubmissions is probably bound to be returned as an MS(PR) 69 on occasion. Yet an MS(PR) 69 coin will probably never return as a 70.
peacockcoins
Tommy, You are free to IGNORE any published standard. After all grading is subjective. Furthermore, this discussion is not about MS-65, MS-62, MS-67, etc. coins. It is about PR/MS-70's. IMHO, ANYONE who regards the PR/MS-70 line a mystery is EXTREMELY UNINFORMED. This does NOT include professional graders who often must follow company standards. For example, tiny Mint-made defects MAY be ignored on some coins graded 70. Spots are not as important either as the guarantee that covers them was removed with good justification.
PS Asking why some 70's do not cross should be pretty obvious to a numismatist such as yourself.
Okay, so if I want to learn basics for grading, where do I start? The ANA grading guide? I have to agree with you that the line between a 70 and 69 is the easiest to define. Sure, if it's absolutely perfect....it's a 70. If it's not, then it's a 69. I may not know what to look for to discern the two grades as 69's look pretty nice usually. It's all the other grades that really confuse me, a 64, a 63, a 60....it really would be nice to learn how to grade or to at least know what graders are looking for.
Based on their published standards, neither PCGS nor NGC require that a coin be “absolutely perfect” to qualify for a grade of 70.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Onastone said: "Okay, so if I want to learn basics for grading, where do I start? The ANA grading guide? I have to agree with you that the line between a 70 and 69 is the easiest to define. Sure, if it's absolutely perfect....it's a 70. If it's not, then it's a 69. I may not know what to look for to discern the two grades as 69's look pretty nice usually. It's all the other grades that really confuse me, a 64, a 63, a 60....it really would be nice to learn how to grade or to at least know what graders are looking for."
Wow, I guess I asked for this one.
I was self-taught so anyone can do it. You need to develop a "good eye for detail" and a good memory. I never joined a coin club; however, I was lucky to have a coin dealer in VA who graded conservatively. When I looked up a coin he graded, it matched the image in Photograde. You should join a club and finding a knowledgeable mentor is a plus. The great thing about today is you have the TPGS slabs to examine and the info and forums on the internet.
Here is where I would start. Buy Grading Coins by Photographs, and the ANA Grading Guide (Read the introductions of both books at least three times over a short period of time). Buy Making the Grade. Read the PCGS Grading tips and study/use their online grading guide. Now you'll be ready to take some seminars. I'm actually preparing handouts for a class this weekend that's why this reply will be so short. Hopefully you'll get more advice from forum members. If you cannot attend a class, order the ANA Correspondence Courses.
The rest is up to you. The more coins you look at the faster you'll develop your skills. Here is some "inside baseball" remarks. Don't believe anything you are told. Do some research to prove it is correct. Most long-time students (we all are
) of Numismatics can look at a coin and assign their personal grade in a very short time. Our "personal grade" means nothing. We need to know what the coin grades in the commercial market. That takes more time and experience.
PS You are off to a great start. No wishy washy CRAP here.
It appears you already know what a PR?MS-70 is!!! Best Regards and have fun.
@MFeld said: "Based on their published standards, neither PCGS nor NGC require that a coin be “absolutely perfect” to qualify for a grade of 70."
PCGS: "A Mint State coin can range from one that is covered with marks (MS-60) to a FLAWLESS example (MS-70)."
Well then, either it all depends on what "FLAWLESS" is or I didn't look in the correct PCGS grading standard.
Now, let's please keep this discussion limited to the 69-70 line.
I don't wish to get banned or have this EDUCATIONAL ONLY "technical" discussion (OBVIOUSLY NOT connected to reality) CLOSED!
PS @MFeld Would you please give us a short paragraph about how you learned to become an expert grader. I think it would help Onastone and many other members.
I have in my hand a 2019-P MS70 Apollo Dollar that just arrived today. Looks perfect to the naked eye but upon inspection with my 10x maginifier I see one very tiny pin prick on the reverse side just to the right of the flag in that big open field.
I suspect that during bulk grading such small defects get over-looked. I think most graders use a 5x loop I beleive,,,,, that is what I have heard in the past. Not all graders use a stereo microscope, especially on Moderns,,,,,,, but they should IMHO.
In reading the grading standars posted by MFeld I suspect the pin prick could be an as struck defect, maybe a little something in the die. It is so small I can't see how it could be caused by handling. I have submitted alot of Modern Commemoratives over the years that graded MS70 that had little imperfections that many told me were called "Frost Breaks" this is not that but a small pin prick.
See two links below - the second one appears to allow for both mint-made and man-made flaws.
https://www.pcgs.com/grades#grade70
“Fully struck and lustrous, free of visual marks. The PCGS 70 grading standard does allow for “as minted” defects, as long as those flaws are minor and do not impact the eye appeal of the coin.”
https://www.pcgs.com/Content/pdf/PCGSGradingStandards.pdf
“Fully struck and lustrous, free of visual marks under 5X magnification”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks! Great starting point. Now please resume the "RUMBLE BETWEEN EXPERTS!" I always seem to learn something from these rumbles!!!! And really enjoy the disputes!
Thanks, I believed you, just didn't look in the right place. They should get all the info to read the same.
As you posted, I believe 5X is the normal standard and small mint-made defects are tolerated. Unfortunately for me, sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference between a tiny PMD "prick" and a tiny Mint made "defect" at 5X. Anyway, who wishes to actually hold the line at "flawless."
However, this presents an opportunity for old-time grading perfectionists...
Since totally flawless examples of modern coins exist under much higher magnification than 5X...
And since these coins are graded PR/MS-70 along with "commercially acceptable" PR/MS-70's...
And since we have no way of knowing what the standard for perfection will be in the future...
Oh my, I just thought of all those diamonds that are now graded flawless at 10X.
That's why when I chose a "flawless" diamond from a small group that was offered, I 
cranked the jeweler's the scope up to 40X so I would get his best "flawless" stone.
Now I was looking forward to reading how you learned to grade as a beginner.
Sorry, but for now, at least, I’m not going to answer, as I prefer not to talk about myself. But I will give it some thought and try to find another way to provide some of the same information.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OK, forget yourself. How would you answer @Onastone. Anything to add to my suggestions?
Goodnight all until Sunday.
Where are you going?
Thanks @Insider2 et al. for the thought-provoking discussion. I have similar questions as @Onastone since I've had less than good results from my attempts at submissions. Currently trying to chose which 5 oz Apollo pucks to submit...
I CAN tell the difference on most but @Akbeez ..... IMHO the 5oz Apollo pucks are harder because of the design (moon dirts)
The only 69 or 70 proof coins I have seen have been moderns and they are mostly in plastic so didn't have to study them. Don't like many of the moderns. I love my 2019 Apollo 11 Commemorative with all that silver. I had quit buying mint and proof sets due to the crap they were pushing, but decided to take a chance with this coin and am I glad I did. Beautiful.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
AYE PF, I did 50/50 on the Baseball HOF coins, but missed the mark on many others, ie, ASEs. But the Apollo 5 pucks are SO HUGE and like you said - moon dirts/nooks and cranny's it's hard to see it all. Gonna have to give a casual "overview" of them and "eny-meny-miney-mo" from there. Hopefully the blems will be somewhat apparent. Hopefully can at least make 69s which MAY will cover costs...