New Varieties, PCGS, Cherry Pickers Guide limitations

Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

My goal with this thread is to encourage PCGS to become an industry leader for the recognition of unlisted varieties (non CPG).

With the spartan updates to volume 2 and more discoveries that could populate new listings in future editions of both volumes, I suggest that PCGS step in and become captain of the variety ship, which is presently adrift.

I have heard there is reluctance on the side of Whitman (publisher of CPG) to add “too many” new varieties in future editions. Why handicap a book series like this?
Why the limits?
Why is CPG the primary variety source?
Why not Pcgs?
Variety enthusiasts want material to find, using a minimalist approach to new additions seems like it only LIMITS potential and diversity.

There are multiple examples of re-engraved proofs, ddr,ddo, and rpm that have not “made the cut” into cpg.

Personally I think it would be awesome to create a new registry set of newer varieties! Or made up of “Minor Variety” Coins.
Inspire excitement and the Hunt with fresh varieties, in place of all the varieties published DECADES ago.

When the new volume 1 cpg came out, there was a frenzied rush to collect and fill the new spaces. I imagine submissions, reholder, and cross over services saw a jump in numbers, from folks getting new attribution.
If they ever actually release a new edition of volume 2, I predict the same scramble of submissions.

New varieties are a way for the newer collectors and registry participants to enter the game. When the latest volume 1 cpg came out, I was able to seek and distribute many new varieties. It gave me a foothold into the “game” of attribution, confidence to continue, and a chance to actually own real Cherrypickers varieties at an affordable level! I can honestly say that if there had not been a new issue a few years back, I would not be here posting, competing in the registry, or hunting varieties on a daily or weekly basis.
When I found a chance to “play along” or join in the variety game, I was thrilled beyond measure, inspired by my success, and tempted by the opportunity of financial gain.

I propose that PCGS looks into this concept of setting a New industry standard for variety acceptance. Lead the way as the #1 third party grading service by creating a variety platform that is not predominantly dependent on external publishers.
Just think... “The PCGS Variety Universe”
Own it, take it, pave the way!

I would also volunteer my self to assist such a program in any way possible.

I hereby invoke the powers that be, please consider this concept @BrettPCGS @HeatherBoyd @PCGS_SocialMedia

There is so much more I wanted to say on this subject, perhaps updates and additional ideas will be added

Comments

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019 10:10AM

    Rocc on!

    Love the way you put this:

    @Aspie_Rocco said:

    ... creating a variety platform that is not predominantly dependent on external publishers.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1 variety I'm amazed that PCGS will not recognize is the 1907-S/S Barber Half Dollar. If sent in under variety attribution it is listed as a minor variety. They recognize the 1911-S/S and it is not nearly as visible as the 1907-S/S!

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think the "Cherry Picker's Guide" was EVER intended to contain an exhaustive list of all varieties....in ANY series. It was meant to list the most valuable, easiest to identify, most major, and most available ones.

    If you want an exhaustive list for any series, it really requires a specialized expert/author with a specialized book. That has been done (or attempted) for many series. But the problem then becomes that once you get too narrow of a focus and audience, it's near impossible financially to update it very often. Few will buy the next version with just 3 new varieties?!

    There are websites available with amazing lists of RPM's, DD's, misplaced dates, and other varieties which might fit your requirements more closely. It's relatively easy to update a website!

    The problem then is to have the TPG's use those sites for attribution.....particularly when many of the varieties are so extremely minor. They don't want to get into a situation where the variety is so minor that they've never SEEN one before, and risk just being wrong 5 times out of 10.....

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think this would be such an expansive undertaking it would take an incredible amount of time to complete, not to mention countless meetings of panels of experts to concur on varieties.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 12,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    The 1 variety I'm amazed that PCGS will not recognize is the 1907-S/S Barber Half Dollar. If sent in under variety attribution it is listed as a minor variety. They recognize the 1911-S/S and it is not nearly as visible as the 1907-S/S!

    You are making an extremely good point. IMO, the new folks at PCGS will take care of things this obvious in the future.

    @TommyType said:
    I don't think the "Cherry Picker's Guide" was EVER intended to contain an exhaustive list of all varieties....in ANY series. It was meant to list the most valuable, easiest to identify, most major, and most available ones.

    If you want an exhaustive list for any series, it really requires a specialized expert/author with a specialized book. That has been done (or attempted) for many series. But the problem then becomes that once you get too narrow of a focus and audience, it's near impossible financially to update it very often. Few will buy the next version with just 3 new varieties?!

    There are websites available with amazing lists of RPM's, DD's, misplaced dates, and other varieties which might fit your requirements more closely. It's relatively easy to update a website!

    The problem then is to have the TPG's use those sites for attribution.....particularly when many of the varieties are so extremely minor. They don't want to get into a situation where the variety is so minor that they've never SEEN one before, and risk just being wrong 5 times out of 10.....

    There are a few excellent sites for varieties but unless there is an image or a particular diagnostic (die polish, die break, etc.) it is unreasonable for a TPGS to take the chance of making a false attribution. I just researched a 1964 Accented Hair 50c with a DDO I have not seen and cannot ID on the net. It is going out as a generic DDO, The submitter never knew it was a variety. Thank Goodness he did not ask for an attribution. I could have spent another fifteen minutes trying to find it - probably with no result. :(

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019 1:20PM

    The PCGS Variety Attribution Library should be expanded to include a few other prominent Subject Matter Experts (SME). There a couple of SME's here on this forum who are held in high regard.

    Presently PCGS attributes the varieties by these published sources;

    PCGS Variety Program

    Variety Attribution: PCGS will attribute select varieties. To submit coins, verify particular coin is recognized under this program by referring to the list below. You may submit raw, regrade and crossover coins. Turnaround time is not guaranteed but we will make every effort to return the order in the time specified.
    •What varieties does PCGS recognize?
    PCGS recognizes the following varieties:
    ◦Half Cents (1793-1857) by Cohen numbers
    ◦Large Cents (1793-1814) by Sheldon numbers
    ◦Large Cents (1816-1857) by Newcomb numbers
    ◦Half Dimes (1794-1837) by Logan/McCloskey numbers
    ◦Dimes (1796-1837) by John Reich Society numbers
    ◦NEW Liberty Seated Dimes (1837-1891) by Fortin numbers
    ◦Quarter Dollars (1796-1838) by Browning numbers
    ◦Half Dollars (1794-1836) by Overton numbers
    ◦Capped Bust Reeded Edge Half Dollars (1836 – 1839) by the Dick Graham (GR) numbers
    ◦Liberty Seated Half Dollars by Wiley-Bugert (WB) number
    ◦Dollars (1794-1804) by Bolender and Bowers/Borckardt numbers
    ◦Morgan and Peace Dollars (1878-1935) by VAM numbers (Includes TOP 100, HOT 50, and Hit List 40; see list)
    ◦Gold Quarter Eagles, Half Eagles and Eagles (1795-1834) by Bass/Dannreuther numbers
    ◦Fivaz-Stanton Varieties from the Cherrypickers Guide, Fourth Edition Vol. II and Fifth Edition Vol. I (see list for exclusions)

    https://www.pcgs.com/varietyfaq

    One of the biggies, IMO, is that there are no Seated Series other than Dimes (Fortin) (except CPG)
    Shield Nickel varieties have been classified by @howards for quite a while
    Numerous Seated Half Dimes have been identified by @yosclimber , @MrHalfDime and @CaptHenway . @Kevinj has published several books himself.

    PCGS should also take note of one of their TPG brethren who cut the attribution fee in half if it is correctly attributed, which would save the attribution crew time. If the customer submitted variety happens to be wrong, then the full price would be charged.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11...



    PCGS DANSCO 7070 Modified Set
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/142105
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019 1:21PM

    I guess the "edit" feature is not working again? "There was an error performing your request. Please try again later"

    ~disregard~

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11...



    PCGS DANSCO 7070 Modified Set
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/142105
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    be careful what you ask for ... remember the complete variety sets will probably need to include all new ones.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    be careful what you ask for ... remember the complete variety sets will probably need to include all new ones.

    I see the double edge there. It would definitely add to the challenge. Even if there was a separate minor variety set, I think it would be awesome to have the option. A notation on the label is very appealing to me personally.

    I like the idea of a reduced fee if accurately identified by the customer. I go as far as to list the Pcgs coin number, fs #, and make notes on my forms.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I also feel a majority of the actual variety Work for such a platform could be done as a group effort by members of the forum and their contacts. The feel the collective knowledge here alone could be gathered and organized in such a way as to minimize the burden on Pcgs. Furthermore, I believe such a platform would stimulate interest, increase submissions.

    I see the variety market as comparable to the mythical American Wild West. So much future potential for a company to take control and create an additional market and revenue stream.

    Another forum category could be opened to accommodate threads for specific series’ of Coins. Those proficient in a series could contribute ideas and variety nominations to be reviewed by the forum members and professionals as needed.

    A standard could be established for consistency and visibility of varieties.
    Votes could be held for acceptable varieties.

    So much of the foundation work could be accomplished here by those passionate about their respective series.

  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 5,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Time is money - it will never happen. Even in the variety collecting community there is still debate on what varieties should be recognized and what is so incredibly minor, its just dust in the wind.

    WS

    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WaterSport said:
    Time is money - it will never happen. Even in the variety collecting community there is still debate on what varieties should be recognized and what is so incredibly minor, its just dust in the wind.

    WS

    I appreciate your reply and the reality based logic of it, but I hope you are wrong. I do hope PCGS will assimilate all useful resources and collectively pioneer a new era for varieties

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    be careful what you ask for ... remember the complete variety sets will probably need to include all new ones.

    I understand this completely. I like Franklin varieties. But when the CPG latest edition published that ridiculous few pages regarding Bugs Bunnys and all that FS-401/ FS-402 garbage it really mucked up the waters!

    Suddenly coins that were previously 401 were now 402 and visa-versa, and made certain dates artificially scarce.

    And inclusion of VERY minor common varieties such as the 1963 DDR is/was silly IMHO. Just because a variety gets published in the CPG should not mean PCGS should recognize it.

    It is a complicated area and needs input from dedicated variety collectors like Aspie Rocco. PCGS should make him a consultant.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I totally agree with @Aspie_Rocco …… For the Mercury Dimes and Roosie Dimes the CONECA site could be used. As new varieties of these Dimes were sent in to Dr. Wiles and added to the CONECA site they could be added to the PCGS Registry.

    I am all for it! :)


    All Dimes All Varieties

    Coins for sale

    Canadian Dimes Set


    Washington Quarters All Varieties 32-64


    >RIP -image Rebecca 2004-2018...If love could have saved you - you would have lived forever<
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019 6:35PM

    I enjoy varieties, and I would feel good if more people did, and if more varities were noted on holder labels.
    But I'm not sure making a higher attribution effort at PCGS makes sense as a business decision (cost vs. revenue).

    Varieties are something where there is expertise gained by a handful of specialists/fans who have invested time to study them.

    If people who are less expert (including PCGS folks) want help with attribution, they could ask a specialist, but ideally the specialist would publish a website or book with all the necessary photos and logic. This saves the time it takes to contact an expert and receive their response.

    Is it helpful (and worth the added cost) for a variety to be listed on the holder label?

    1. For selling a coin?
      Sometimes, but often varieties, especially minor ones, do not have much added value.
    2. For a registry set? (Collector wants to show off what they have found, even if it may not have extra resale value)
      Only if the registry set includes the variety. It takes time, money and expertise to maintain the registry composition lists.
    3. For a non-registry collection?
      If the collector needs help confirming a variety, they could go directly to an expert and then put their own sticker or note
      on the holder. Most of the fun of varieties is attributing it yourself, but it can be a learning process, so some occasional
      feedback from other collectors/experts can be helpful. Forums can be great for this.

    If collectors were willing to spend more on variety attribution and wait longer, PCGS could contact outside experts.
    But I suspect the tolerable fees are limited by the value added when reselling the coin.

    Another approach to promoting varieties would be to create more free public (Open) registries,
    like the one at Gerry Fortin Rare Coins.
    Here users self-attribute and registry lists are made by series experts.
    http://seateddimevarieties.com/openregistry/index.php

    These do not detract from PCGS Registries, which have a more strict policy for user input.

  • IntueorIntueor Posts: 242 ✭✭✭

    Look at it this way. Variety collecting is basically mining the available resources to find the gems. The TGS would have a hell of a time trying to catalog and maintain the expert staff necessary to attribute all the varieties. PCGS could make more profit by expanding variety attribution. How many of us do not get our “unrecognized” varieties attributed by another grading services for the vain reason that that other services holders just does not “fit-in” with the tidy uniformity of an all PCGS collection? I suspect PCGS uses their standard set of variety references to interpret variety attributions. I do not think PCGS actually employs an army of specialists in variety attribution “room”. It would not be cost effective or practical to maintain a staff of experts just to attribute “all” varieties. I see the choice of a narrow set of reference material as the problem. As @Aspie_Rocco and @yosclimber suggest, the TGS should expand their references to include other published variety references and especially online resources. Hey! This is the new norm people. Where there is a discrepancy in references on a particular variety, exclude it from attribution until there is an expert consensus.

    unus multorum
  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019 7:56PM

    Some very well written replies here.

    If Pcgs stepped up CoinFacts to the level close to Variety vista, with “minor varieties” having more detail, and listings, there would not be a need for an army of specialists to attribute, just one or three.

    If there is a consolidated variety index with photos, ANY observant employee could compare the submitted coin with accepted images. The guess work and research of the attribution team would be streamlined down to simply looking at CoinFacts.

    An experiment could be established for a test series or era to try out such a platform. A site as comprehensive for modern Coins like variety vista is a great foundation for a “modern variety arena”.
    I am not suggesting inclusion of every single obscure variety with minuscule details. Maybe there could be a standard measurement of spread for items like RPM or doubled dies to qualify.

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭✭

    @Intueor said:
    .... I do not think PCGS actually employs an army of specialists in variety attribution “room”.

    BLASPHEMER!! INFIDEL NON- BELIEVER!!!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 12,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @georgiacop50 said:

    @Intueor said:
    .... I do not think PCGS actually employs an army of specialists in variety attribution “room”.

    BLASPHEMER!! INFIDEL NON- BELIEVER!!!

    Actually, they hired Jay away from the ATS and IMO, he's as good as anyone posting on CU.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Having had some experience in variety discovery, variety attribution, and certification, I warn thee that if no limits are placed upon which varieties are mentioned on slabs, the TPGs will be asked to certify the most trivial of varieties, and the low values of these trivial varieties will drag down the collectibility of the more significant varieties.

    End of sermon.

    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 12,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Having had some experience in variety discovery, variety attribution, and certification, I warn thee that if no limits are placed upon which varieties are mentioned on slabs, the TPGs will be asked to certify the most trivial of varieties, and the low values of these trivial varieties will drag down the collectibility of the more significant varieties.

    End of sermon.

    I disagree. :) A CRH should be able to get his virtually worthless (to most numismatists) AU 1959-D/D RPM#19 (no joke- an actual variety) attributed/slabbed by a major TPGS if he pays for the attribution. I'll bet at least two TPGS's will do it at this time. :)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Having had some experience in variety discovery, variety attribution, and certification, I warn thee that if no limits are placed upon which varieties are mentioned on slabs, the TPGs will be asked to certify the most trivial of varieties, and the low values of these trivial varieties will drag down the collectibility of the more significant varieties.

    End of sermon.

    I disagree. :) A CRH should be able to get his virtually worthless (to most numismatists) AU 1959-D/D RPM#19 (no joke- an actual variety) attributed/slabbed by a major TPGS if he pays for the attribution. I'll bet at least two TPGS's will do it at this time. :)

    Then is some TPGs are filling this shallow niche, there is no need for the big boys to do so.

    ... --- .-.. --- -. --. --..-- .- -. -.. - .... .- -. -.- ... ..-. --- .-. .- .-.. .-.. - .... . ..-. .. ... .... ..__.
  • KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 532 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 6:01PM

    @Insider2 said:

    I disagree. :) A CRH should be able to get his virtually worthless (to most numismatists) AU 1959-D/D RPM#19 (no joke- an actual variety) attributed/slabbed by a major TPGS if he pays for the attribution. I'll bet at least two TPGS's will do it at this time. :)

    Well, everyone knows that the '59 rpm#19 is virtually worthless, but can you imagine the look on the faces of the graders at our hosts factory if they got a chance to repackage this renowned rarity?

    LSCC #2623, GSNA #2529

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 12,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @KindaNewish said:

    @Insider2 said:

    I disagree. :) A CRH should be able to get his virtually worthless (to most numismatists) AU 1959-D/D RPM#19 (no joke- an actual variety) attributed/slabbed by a major TPGS if he pays for the attribution. I'll bet at least two TPGS's will do it at this time. :)

    Well, everyone knows that the '59 rpm#19 is virtually worthless, but can you imagine the look on the faces of the graders at our hosts factory if they got a chance to repackage this renowned rarity?

    One day, these things will be more appreciated as "gems" will be found to be very elusive. Imagine the popularity of a MINOR VARIETY or RPM Registry Set.

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