If those are Planchet roller marks, they should show on 1808's that have weakly struck areas, as all planchets were run through the rolling mill. I looked through 1808's (and other years) and did not see marks similar to these.
In order to have incuse lines on coins that were made by rollers, narrow ridges would have to be machined into the rollers - not an easy task in 1808. There is no need to have any ridges or grooves on rollers to grip the metal strips. I also don't believe rollers could wear in that pattern.
Has anyone else seen the same marks on 1808 half dollars, or could these also be adjustment marks?
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@Nysoto said: "In order to have incuse lines on coins that were made by rollers, narrow ridges would have to be machined into the rollers - not an easy task in 1808. There is no need to have any ridges or grooves on rollers to grip the metal strips. I also don't believe rollers could wear in that pattern."
AFAIK, NOTHING was "machined" into the rollers. I believe there were two sets of these, one for coarse finishing and one for the end finishing. Think of a razor blade under very high magnification. With use, it gets jagged. The same thing happens to the rollers. The finishing rollers were probably kept as smooth as possible but I was not around back then. You also had marks in the strip imparted by the draw bench.
Come to think of it, what was the last date anyone has seen a roller mark on a coin? I don't recall anything common after 1900.
I thought about drawing bench marks, but that was the device that finished the strips prior to the blanking die, it would seem they would keep it sharp and without visible marks left on the strips.
Starting with an ingot from the melting operation, many trips though the rollers would be needed to obtain planchet thickness (reference Mine to Mint for numbers). I am also sure that rollers had numerous wear marks, but not in the pattern of parallel lines as in filing.
The second Mint director Henry de Saussure wrote to Washington on October 27, 1795 as he was resigning "Great delays were incurred in obtaining heavy iron work, particularly the rollers; and these were not always fit for use, when obtained. Those which are now in use being almost worn out, I have been striving in vain to replace them with the fine Andover iron."
The above explains why there are so many coins with deep adjustment marks in 1794 and 1795. I contacted the author of a recent book A History of the Andover Ironworks: Come Penny, Go Pound, he researched the book for many years but did not have a record of supplying the Mint with steel - Andover Ironworks was shutting down by 1795.
I believe the 1808 O.110a posted by @habaraca has adjustment marks, unless someone can find others with similar marks that could be left by rollers.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
I'm pretty sure we are in agreement except for the fact that the rollers in the "finishing mill" were polished to be as smooth as possible. It appears that when the Mint started buying finished strip from outside venders that "roller" marks were no longer on the strip and thus not seen on the coins. Long before this period, we agree that blanks were not adjusted with files anymore.
While I hate generalities and specific dates, in all probability, the incuse Mint-made scratches still visible on early coins are adjustment marks. The parallel Mint-made scratches on coins from the 1840's and later are virtually all caused by the rollers.
I believe the 1808 are in fact roller marks, they can be seen through the capped Bust series on occasion and are well known on a number of Reeded edge half dollar varieties as well, including the extremely rare 1839 small letters. in my experience roller marks jump out for being so parallel to each other while adjustment marks, apparently done by hand are not. I remain suspicious that the half dollar in question that started this thread has post mint damage, especially in the area between the bust hair and stars 8, 9, 10. I've looked at ten of thousands of bust halves, and that's my experience and gut on this one. The cross hatching further bothers me because, my observations have been cross hatching likely meant a planchet was wildly out of spec to carve off that much silver. I do not believe I can establish proof for my point of view , some of the marking of concern I mentioned seem broader and coarser than most other adjustment marks for one. So unusual happenstance to begin with for a capped half dollar and then a much more extensive cross-hatching that most earlier 1794 and 1795 planchets (not all of course), broader more diffuse crude damage in the fields by stars 8, 9, and 10. I'm not 100% sure if my point of view is correct, but I think it is at the more probable than not standard. Great that the coin is in a holder, and very cool conversation. I think we are all learning from other.
IMO, every coin in this thread has adjustment marks EXCEPT for the 1808. Those look exactly as a roller mark should.
Also IMO, when the marks are all not lined up exactly, they are adjustment marks. This is a see it and know type of thing. A light "pass" once in one direction with a file will look differently than a few heavy and parallel passes. In most cases I can think of, adjusted planchets have some lines that are not 100% parallel to the others.
I agree roller marks are not exactly parallel because of the contour effect after the coin is struck certainly. Lets see if anyone can come up with another example of a capped bust half with cross hatched adjustment marks. Their may be other potential candidates out there. I will bring this up at the next Bust Half Nut Club meeting, its interesting.
Uh i meant bust half dollar of course lol. I'm thinking the majority of the lines going in the 3pm to 8 pm direction are roller marks. They look relatively parallel and very fine distances between many of them, an atypical pattern for adjustment marks compared to earlier coins, but very consistent with roller marks as discussed above. Of course this pattern is in stark contrast to the silver coin that started the thread, quite differentiated. Intriguing, what do others think on this new gold piece? Thanks for sharing it.
I would like to get the "minutes" of that next Bust Half Nut meeting, if possible. This has turned into a very interesting thread for sure. For the record, I did pay a substantially discounted price (as compared to the guide) on the 1807 large stars bust. I usually skip the coins with the adjustment marks, but was drawn to this one due to not having seen those marks within this series before.
Comments
@habaraca:
If those are Planchet roller marks, they should show on 1808's that have weakly struck areas, as all planchets were run through the rolling mill. I looked through 1808's (and other years) and did not see marks similar to these.
In order to have incuse lines on coins that were made by rollers, narrow ridges would have to be machined into the rollers - not an easy task in 1808. There is no need to have any ridges or grooves on rollers to grip the metal strips. I also don't believe rollers could wear in that pattern.
Has anyone else seen the same marks on 1808 half dollars, or could these also be adjustment marks?
@Nysoto said: "In order to have incuse lines on coins that were made by rollers, narrow ridges would have to be machined into the rollers - not an easy task in 1808. There is no need to have any ridges or grooves on rollers to grip the metal strips. I also don't believe rollers could wear in that pattern."
AFAIK, NOTHING was "machined" into the rollers. I believe there were two sets of these, one for coarse finishing and one for the end finishing. Think of a razor blade under very high magnification. With use, it gets jagged. The same thing happens to the rollers. The finishing rollers were probably kept as smooth as possible but I was not around back then. You also had marks in the strip imparted by the draw bench.
Come to think of it, what was the last date anyone has seen a roller mark on a coin? I don't recall anything common after 1900.
I thought about drawing bench marks, but that was the device that finished the strips prior to the blanking die, it would seem they would keep it sharp and without visible marks left on the strips.
Starting with an ingot from the melting operation, many trips though the rollers would be needed to obtain planchet thickness (reference Mine to Mint for numbers). I am also sure that rollers had numerous wear marks, but not in the pattern of parallel lines as in filing.
The second Mint director Henry de Saussure wrote to Washington on October 27, 1795 as he was resigning "Great delays were incurred in obtaining heavy iron work, particularly the rollers; and these were not always fit for use, when obtained. Those which are now in use being almost worn out, I have been striving in vain to replace them with the fine Andover iron."
The above explains why there are so many coins with deep adjustment marks in 1794 and 1795. I contacted the author of a recent book A History of the Andover Ironworks: Come Penny, Go Pound, he researched the book for many years but did not have a record of supplying the Mint with steel - Andover Ironworks was shutting down by 1795.
I believe the 1808 O.110a posted by @habaraca has adjustment marks, unless someone can find others with similar marks that could be left by rollers.
I'm pretty sure we are in agreement except for the fact that the rollers in the "finishing mill" were polished to be as smooth as possible. It appears that when the Mint started buying finished strip from outside venders that "roller" marks were no longer on the strip and thus not seen on the coins. Long before this period, we agree that blanks were not adjusted with files anymore.
While I hate generalities and specific dates, in all probability, the incuse Mint-made scratches still visible on early coins are adjustment marks. The parallel Mint-made scratches on coins from the 1840's and later are virtually all caused by the rollers.
I believe the 1808 are in fact roller marks, they can be seen through the capped Bust series on occasion and are well known on a number of Reeded edge half dollar varieties as well, including the extremely rare 1839 small letters. in my experience roller marks jump out for being so parallel to each other while adjustment marks, apparently done by hand are not. I remain suspicious that the half dollar in question that started this thread has post mint damage, especially in the area between the bust hair and stars 8, 9, 10. I've looked at ten of thousands of bust halves, and that's my experience and gut on this one. The cross hatching further bothers me because, my observations have been cross hatching likely meant a planchet was wildly out of spec to carve off that much silver. I do not believe I can establish proof for my point of view , some of the marking of concern I mentioned seem broader and coarser than most other adjustment marks for one. So unusual happenstance to begin with for a capped half dollar and then a much more extensive cross-hatching that most earlier 1794 and 1795 planchets (not all of course), broader more diffuse crude damage in the fields by stars 8, 9, and 10. I'm not 100% sure if my point of view is correct, but I think it is at the more probable than not standard. Great that the coin is in a holder, and very cool conversation. I think we are all learning from other.
IMO, every coin in this thread has adjustment marks EXCEPT for the 1808. Those look exactly as a roller mark should.
Also IMO, when the marks are all not lined up exactly, they are adjustment marks. This is a see it and know type of thing. A light "pass" once in one direction with a file will look differently than a few heavy and parallel passes. In most cases I can think of, adjusted planchets have some lines that are not 100% parallel to the others.
I agree roller marks are not exactly parallel because of the contour effect after the coin is struck certainly. Lets see if anyone can come up with another example of a capped bust half with cross hatched adjustment marks. Their may be other potential candidates out there. I will bring this up at the next Bust Half Nut Club meeting, its interesting.
My 1795 O-108a half dollar has visible adjustment marks on the reverse. (It has since been crossed to PCGS)
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
All I know is if I had submitted that coin to our host it would come back "damage"-LOL!
An 1810 capped bust half with crossing adjustment marks:
Others in the series have parallel adjustment marks with no crossing.
Gobust " I will bring this up at the next Bust Half Nut Club meeting, its interesting."
and I will bring my 1808 see ya at the Corn Roast #173
Uh i meant bust half dollar of course lol. I'm thinking the majority of the lines going in the 3pm to 8 pm direction are roller marks. They look relatively parallel and very fine distances between many of them, an atypical pattern for adjustment marks compared to earlier coins, but very consistent with roller marks as discussed above. Of course this pattern is in stark contrast to the silver coin that started the thread, quite differentiated. Intriguing, what do others think on this new gold piece? Thanks for sharing it.
I would like to get the "minutes" of that next Bust Half Nut meeting, if possible. This has turned into a very interesting thread for sure. For the record, I did pay a substantially discounted price (as compared to the guide) on the 1807 large stars bust. I usually skip the coins with the adjustment marks, but was drawn to this one due to not having seen those marks within this series before.
10-4,
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