Report of an 1851-O “proof” dollar

RogerB · January 31, 2019 10:19AM

On September 20, 1877 coin collector H. P. Smith of New York wrote to the Philadelphia Mint. He asked about pre-1858 proof coins and closed with this post script:

“I have in my possession a dollar struck in 1851, at the New Orleans Mint, it is a brilliant proof. Are branch mints allowed to strike proofs, if not now, have then been?”

Any members have thoughts on Mr. Smith’s statement or on the whereabouts of his branch mint “proof” dollar?

CaptHenway · January 31, 2019 10:23AM

I have handled that coin. Please send me a copy of the correspondence.
Will tell more later when not on my cell phone.

BrettPCGS · January 31, 2019 10:28AM

This?

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1851-1-restrike-over-o-mint/6979

MFeld · January 31, 2019 10:30AM

My thought is that the coin was almost certainly a PL business strike and that the term "proof" was used, anyway. If so, I'm under the impression that it wouldn't have been particularly unusual to do so, way back when.

@CaptHenway said:

I have handled that coin. Please send me a copy of the correspondence.
Will tell more later when not on my cell phone.

I look forward to hearing about it!

kevinj · January 31, 2019 10:31AM

In my book, The Authoritative Reference on Liberty Seated Dollars,
Ron Guth wrote a section on the 1851-O Proof Dollar
I believe you have a copy of this book Roger
Kevin

gonzer · January 31, 2019 2:04PM

Please don't let this thread die.

RogerB · January 31, 2019 2:25PM

@gonzer said:
Please don't let this thread die.

It will die if there is no interest....such is Nature.

StrikeOutXXX · January 31, 2019 2:34PM

Interesting article:
https://coinweek.com/coins/unique-unusual/rare-seated-liberty-dollar-proof/

Brett posted the link to the coin, here is a bit more in a Stacks auction write-up:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-52AUR

RogerB · January 31, 2019 2:41PM

....and the provenance of the coin mentioned in the links, above?

Baley · January 31, 2019 2:48PM

@CaptHenway said:
I have handled that coin.

Well then, now it's AU at best.

CaptHenway · January 31, 2019 2:48PM

@StrikeOutXXX said:
Interesting article:
https://coinweek.com/coins/unique-unusual/rare-seated-liberty-dollar-proof/

Brett posted the link to the coin, here is a bit more in a Stacks auction write-up:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-52AUR

Just a brief note before I go run a long errand. The Stacks/Bowers writeup is essentially correct. Also, there are light tooling marks on the little bit of the feather above and to the left of the O.

The coin is unquestionably a Proof, struck at the Philadelphia Mint using Mint dies and equipment. It was struck over a previously struck O-mint dollar from which the date had been removed.

More later.

StrikeOutXXX · January 31, 2019 3:12PM

@RogerB said:
....and the provenance of the coin mentioned in the links, above?

No clue - this article references Ken Bressett and other Numismatists examining it under a secrecy pact back in 1983 and much of its history in the more recent sales/offerings.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2018/06/mysterious-proof-1851-seated-dollar-in-regency-27.all.html

MrEureka · January 31, 2019 3:17PM

@RogerB said:
....and the provenance of the coin mentioned in the links, above?

Excellent question. Then again, the odds against there being a 51 Proof struck over a New Orleans business strike, AND an actual 51-O struck in New Orleans seem astronomically high.

StrikeOutXXX · January 31, 2019 3:23PM

@MrEureka had a great picture of the "O" and some PMD of it in a post of his about 15+ years ago here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/1934509/#Comment_1934509

tradedollarnut · January 31, 2019 3:25PM

It’s on eBay right now

MFeld · January 31, 2019 4:10PM

Well, whether or not it’s the same coin referenced in the H. P. Smith letter, so much for “My thought is that the coin was almost certainly a PL business strike...”. I was thinking PL O-mint gold dollar.😬

Coinosaurus · January 31, 2019 4:50PM

This coin has been on the market frequently in the last few years. I'd be comfortable putting HP Smith in the pedigree chain from this correspondence, maybe qualify with "probable." The coin was likely produced at the same time as other 1851 dollarrestrikes. Presumably the coiner screwed up by putting a mintmarked piece in the press. Great find!

StrikeOutXXX · January 31, 2019 5:05PM

@Coinosaurus said:
This coin has been on the market frequently in the last few years. I'd be comfortable putting HP Smith in the pedigree chain from this correspondence, maybe qualify with "probable." The coin was likely produced at the same time as other 1851 dollarrestrikes. Presumably the coiner screwed up by putting a mintmarked piece in the press. Great find!

Harlan Page Smith founded a few coin companies and auction houses and partnered with David Proskey to form NY Coin and Stamp from 1887 until his death in 1902.

I couldn't find anything in NNP from his older auctions he held starting 1881 as far as listing this coin, so I'm not sure if it was his personal one, one he was inquiring in 1877 for a client or to purchase. He said it was "In his possession" but that doesn't mean it was his.

http://www.numismaticmall.com/numismaticmall-com/smith-harlan-page

Looks like his personal collection was sold after his death. Haven't found that yet to see if it was in there.
Chapmans sale of the h.p. smith Collection May and June 1906.

Anyone have the Chapman Sale Catalog?:
Chapman, S.H. and H. CATALOGUE OF THE MAGNIFICENT COLLECTION OF COINS OF THE UNITED STATES FORMED BY THE LATE HARLAN P. SMITH, ESQ. Philadelphia, May 8-11, (1906)

What is lot 454?

RogerB · January 31, 2019 6:51PM

Very nice digging, StrikeOutXXX !

Lot 454 (iCollectable.com plate image) certainly looks suspiciously like someone did surgery in the mintmark area.

Here's the page from the Smith catalog of 1906 [from NNP database]. No mention of a proof 1851-O

Detail of Lot 454 on plate. (Quality limited by JPG compression in on-line image)

Coinosaurus · January 31, 2019 9:40PM

I pulled up the original scan file (.jp2) from NNP, definitely something going on in the MM area. The modern catalogers have suggested someone tried to efface the MM.

(You have to click on the file, I think the image may be too large to post directly.)

I can't quite plate match it to the current coin on the market, but it sure seems likely.

aus3000tin · January 31, 2019 10:10PM

@BrettPCGS said:
This?

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1851-1-restrike-over-o-mint/6979

So, does anyone else see a faint "S" in between the "E" & the "D" ?

Also, looking at the second coin 63 on the next page:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1851-1-restrike/6993

I see the same faint "S" and a faint "O" in the correspondind spots.

This is the coin that is currently on ebay.

Does this mean there are more than 1 of these "O" proofs ??

Any help would be great.

Thanks Chris

Timbuk3 · February 1, 2019 1:56AM

Interesting !!!

Currin · February 1, 2019 5:30AM

@tradedollarnut said:
It’s on eBay right now

TDN, Is $425 price correctly?

StrikeOutXXX · February 1, 2019 6:42AM

@coinasaurus can you pull the obverse the same way you linked to the reverse?

Trying to compare 113 year old photos to today's is tough. Certainly the toning would have changed quite a bit - the old photos aren't good enough to see the nicks you can see on current photos. Every time I think I can compare a "Dot" between the two, I talk myself out of it. Heck - even comparing the 2 coinfacts photos with the Stacks photo you can't see some of the same marks at times.

Here's what I believe I've learned so far as far as facts.

x - 1876 - Smith "was a mariner and fruit dealer who retired in 1876 to study and sell coins"
1877, Sep 20 - Smith "Has in his possession" an 1851 Proof Dollar he believes to be an "O"
1880-1881 - Smith conducts 4 coin auctions with Henry G Sampson
1881-1887 - Smith conducts 21 auctions under his own name
1887 - 1902 - Smith Operates NY Coin and Stamp with partner David Proskey
1902, Mar 2 - Smith passes away
1906, May 8-11 - Smith's coin collection is sold. Included in the collection is lot 454 simply described as "1951 Brilliant Proof. Very Rare. Plate VII."
1983 - "Heritage added, “A conversation with Kenneth Bressett revealed that he had examined the coin along with several other prominent numismatists in 1983. At that time the owner swore everyone to secrecy who examined the piece""

Now as far as my own conclusions...

We know in 1877 he had what he believed was an 1851 Proof in his possession with an "O". Unknown if it was his own, but when he passed away, his estate contained one 1851Proof which was sold off. The Chapman sale of his estate coins makes no mention of an "O" on lot 454. Could the Chapman catalogers simply not notice the faint "O"? Available pictures at least to me are inclusive either way. With a mintage of 35? 1851 Proofs, what is the chance Smith had 2 of them?

I can't say it's the same coin, but it's the only lead we have so far so let's try to follow that coin until we can rule it out.

At least from 1880 to his death he was a coin dealer/auctioneer. I couldn't find any record of his 25 hosted auctions having an 1851 Proof but didn't find all the catalogs. He might have sold the coin through his NY Coin and Stamp store or traded/sold it at any time.

So... we know it exists, we know Smith noticed it in 1877, we know his private collection contained a similar coin that sold in 1906, and then.... the next mention of the coin I found is some sworn to secrecy examination in 1983. So... what happened to it in those 77 years between?

Another thing to look into - Can we trace any of the regular 1851 Proofs back to that sale to rule it out as the "O" overstrike?

@CaptHenway You have more info here? You have any info on that 1983 meeting? You always know stuff 8-)

tradedollarnut · February 1, 2019 8:30AM

@Currin said:

@tradedollarnut said:
It’s on eBay right now

TDN, Is $425 price correctly?

It’s worth whatever someone will pay for it. But I see no compelling reason to add it to any themed collection such as a Seated Dollar set.

Currin · February 1, 2019 9:21AM

@tradedollarnut said:

@Currin said:

@tradedollarnut said:
It’s on eBay right now

TDN, Is $425 price correctly?

It’s worth whatever someone will pay for it. But I see no compelling reason to add it to any themed collection such as a Seated Dollar set.

Thanks TDN, The reason I asked you this question, the coin was Passed at $240 in a public auction a couple years ago. What has change, if anything?

RogerB · February 1, 2019 10:08AM

Here's an enhanced version of the jp2 image Coinosaurus linked.

When comparing the ebay photo with the auction plate there are three small defects above and to the left of eagle's right wing visible in both photos. There is also a matching dot between and above "DO" of dollar.

I cannot explain the rough indistinct mintmark area on the Smith auction image with a clear "O" on the ebay photo.

CaptHenway · February 1, 2019 12:03PM

Still looking for my file folder

MrEureka · February 1, 2019 12:19PM

FWIW, mAny generations of numismatists may have neglected to mention the mintmark because they considered it detrimental to the value of the coin.

StrikeOutXXX · February 1, 2019 12:38PM

@RogerB said:

When comparing the ebay photo with the auction plate there are three small defects above and to the left of eagle's right wing visible in both photos. There is also a matching dot between and above "DO" of dollar.

I cannot explain the rough indistinct mintmark area on the Smith auction image with a clear "O" on the ebay photo.

I threw a quick collage together.

There are a few other similarities.

Top Row: Left=Stacks close-up, Center=Chapman Plate, Right=Coin World Legend article
Bottom Row: Left = Coinfacts 1, Center=Stacks Slab Shot, Right=Confacts 2

Compared to the Chapman Plate:

Upper Right CW/Legend photo = Very similar photo outcome of the mintmark area

A dot between the bottom of the eagle's right wing and the "V" of the 2 groups of 4 leaves in several shots

Line above the eagle's right wing headed towards the "E" in "UNITED" is somewhat discernible in the upper left pic (think this is what you mentioned)

Above the eagle's left wing - in line below the "F" of "OF" is a slightly bent mark somewhat matching a few pictures

Under the right leg of the "N" in "UNITED" seems to be a circular dot that somewhat matches a few pictures

The toning/haze patterns certainly evolved over 113 years since the plate image to today's images, so I don't put much that those don't exactly match.

If we can get a semi clear shot of the obverse from 1906 maybe we can find some more similarities.

RogerB · February 1, 2019 1:46PM

Hmmmm...nice work! Could the expansion of toning since 1906, plus changes in photography have altered the relative appearance of the mintmark area? (1906 photo plates were very poor in red/orange sensitivity; strong in blue/violet -- almost "orthochromatic" in spectral response (compare to "panchromatic").

StrikeOutXXX - If you process the ebay image as a split channel RGB, then combine only B-G, lighten and make a negative (to emulate the field and eagle tones n the 1906 photo), the mintmark area begins to resemble the Chapman auction catalog.

RogerB · February 1, 2019 1:54PM

(Would be nice if we had correctly color balanced photos -- too.)

StrikeOutXXX · February 1, 2019 2:34PM

There is 23 in PCGS Pop Reports ("Normal 1851 proofs") The pictures I can find of those have ZERO strange stuff going on where the "O" overstruck MM sits on this coin.

There are a lot of similarities for sure - nothing decisive, but certainly lots of possible or probabilities starting to come together.

Hopefully coinosaurus can get a big picture of the obverse so we can compare those too.

Like MrEureka said - many may have CHOSE to overlook the "O" for fear of lowering its value.

Hopefully the Capt has something in his files about past history, perhaps that 1983 secret examination or knows someone who can ask Ken or others there (if known who)

Your original question was who knows the whereabouts of this "O" proof - I'm starting to lean towards the answer of "eBay" at the moment.

Guess it would still be nice to positively or at least "Most likely" fill in the blanks from 1906 - 1983.

savitale · February 1, 2019 5:24PM

I’m confused. Is this the coin in question? Offered at $425,000?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1851-1-Restrike-Liberty-Seated-Dollar-PCGS-PR63/401681252135?hash=item5d86117f27:g:uOkAAOSwEGBcM2uT

One would expect a better listing item description on a $425,000 coin.

MFeld · February 1, 2019 5:32PM

@savitale said:
I’m confused. Is this the coin in question? Offered at $425,000?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1851-1-Restrike-Liberty-Seated-Dollar-PCGS-PR63/401681252135?hash=item5d86117f27:g:uOkAAOSwEGBcM2uT

One would expect a better listing item description on a $425,000 coin.

Yes, that’s the one. While I don’t know that such is the case with that particular listing, many sellers list coins on EBay in the hopes of attracting new clients, and not necessarily actually trying to sell the coin.

messydesk · February 1, 2019 7:50PM

Here's some more info about it

http://seateddollarvarieties.com/1851-O.shtml

StrikeOutXXX · February 1, 2019 8:24PM

@messydesk said:
Here's some more info about it

http://seateddollarvarieties.com/1851-O.shtml

I took the picture in that article vs a similar section of the Chapman Plate. Still leaning towards it being that particular coin. Find enough pictures and maybe some day they can pedigree it back to ex H.P. Smith.

RogerB · February 1, 2019 10:01PM

Looks very likely. Can we get together one, modern, clear article that others can got to for information?

PS: There are other archive letters from Smith. Some are rather accusatory; but I wonder if the sample is incomplete. Will be checking the Letters Sent fair copies next week.

Aegis3 · February 1, 2019 10:13PM

Check out the nicks above the eagle's left wing; clear on the Smith plate, visible on Coin Facts also.

amwldcoin · February 2, 2019 7:22AM

Unless I'm seeing things the O seems to be in a different position between the 2 coins.

@StrikeOutXXX said:

@messydesk said:
Here's some more info about it

http://seateddollarvarieties.com/1851-O.shtml

I took the picture in that article vs a similar section of the Chapman Plate. Still leaning towards it being that particular coin. Find enough pictures and maybe some day they can pedigree it back to ex H.P. Smith.

StrikeOutXXX · February 2, 2019 9:00AM

@amwldcoin said:
Unless I'm seeing things the O seems to be in a different position between the 2 coins.

You can't even really see the O on the Chapman plate photos. Even the images taken in the last handful of years don't present the exact same. This is the Chapman photo and a Coin World/Legend photo - that area presents very similar under some photo circumstances:

I ran some more comparisons of the obverse vs one of the PCGS photos:

and

A comment that @MrEureka made on the subject years ago:
"BTW, the marks on the mintmark occurred after the coin was struck. Apparently, somebody tried to remove the mintmark, but he quickly gave up. (Edited to say that the post-striking damage did not cause the flattening of the mintmark!)"

I'm curious why these scratches/tooling around the smushed overstruck "O" didn't qualify for a details holder.

Coinosaurus · February 2, 2019 10:51AM

I noticed the matching spot at Liberty's navel as well. I am attaching the obverse plate from Newman Portal (ex. John J. Ford copy of the H.P. Smith catalog), from the original scan (.jp2) file.

RogerB · February 2, 2019 1:16PM

How does this obverse compare to those used for New Orleans Mint coins?

StrikeOutXXX · February 2, 2019 1:28PM

I agree @Realone After staring at the images for 2 days, and combined with the letter Roger found showing the link, I have little, if any, doubt the Smith/Chapman Plated coin is today's PCGS PR63 Restrike Over O Mint coin.

If I were writing an auction catalog entry today, I would pedigree it with a clear conscience back to that sale.

So what mysteries or "Fill in the blank areas" remain for this thread?

1858-1859? and 1865-1867? = Restrike Proofs struck
***** (A)
Sep 20, 1877 = Smith has the coin and writes an inquiry to the US Mint
Mar 2, 1902 = Smith passes away
May 8-11, 1906 = Coin is auctioned as lot 454 (Realized $85) by the Chapman Brothers
***** (B)
1983 - Ken Bressett & other prominent numismatists examine coin in secrecy
***** (C)
August 1992, James C. Gray, Thomas K. DeLorey, Q. David Bowers, and other examine the coin at the ANA convention
1998 - Heritage offered it when it was graded Proof 62 by ANACS, but it failed to meet is reserve of $250,000.
2000 - Ira & Larry Goldbergs auction realizing $161,000
October 18, 2002 - Ron Guth examines the coin
2003 - Ira & Larry Goldbergs auction realizing $276,000
2008 - Stack’s sale of the Bergstrom and Husky collections as lot 2025, where it brought $373,750.
2016 - Dick Osburn and Brian Cushing examine coin and determine die pair used
August, 2016 - Stacks Auction - failed to meet reserve of $240,000
July 26, 2018 - The Regency Auction 27 by Legend Rare Coin
2019 - Currently listed on eBay for $425,000

Where the ***** are at still needs filled in if anyone knows anything
(A) 10-20 years between striking (restriking) the coin until Smith writes the letter
(B) Where was the coin between the 1906 auction and Ken Bressett & others seeing the coin in 1983
(C) After Ken saw it - where was it again until the early 1990's where it has a pretty decent history since

RogerB · February 2, 2019 1:36PM

Nice stuff, StrikeOutXXX !

Maybe if you wrote an auction description the coin would sell !

Aspie_Rocco · February 2, 2019 1:38PM

@Currin said:

TDN, Is $425 price correctly?

I will laugh at myself since I naively went to eBay to buy this for a mere $425 this morning, only to find all those pesky 000.00s attached. Guess I’ll have to wait for the next ebucks promotion.

Beautiful coin.

CaptHenway · February 2, 2019 3:55PM

Well, I give up looking for the file folder. Perhaps later.

Off the top of my head, to the best of my recollection and subject to revision if I ever do find that folder, the coin came into ANACS submitted as a Proof Restrike. I do not recall if the O mint mark was declared on the submission form or not. It was processed and photographed and weighed and put into a work-in-progress tray like any other coin. I am guessing this was 1982.

The first Authenticator to look at it was Tommy Acker. He brought it over to me and asked "What's this O Mint mark doing on this Proof dollar?" A fair question, though there was no question that the coin was a Proof.

At the time the coin looked like the CoinFacts picture as far as the Mint mark area is concerned, though in my memory it seems to have been a bit less toned. It did not look like that Chapman plate, which I suspect was deliberately altered on the negative to hide the fact that there was an O mint mark. The collectors of the day were aware of Mint shenanigans, and the O would have condemned it as a second rate Mint Restrike.

We studied it under our microscopes for a very long time. The O was in very shallow relief, with evidence of an attempt to remove it. Besides the swirly polish marks, there were a few small ticks on the underside of the tiny arrow feather that sticks out below the olive branch.

I considered the possibility that it was overstruck on a previously struck O-Mint dollar, but when I studied the 1851 date area I could find absolutely no trace of an underdate. None. It made no sense that the person who struck the Restrike would very carefully remove all four digits of a tell-tale underdate from the host coin but not a tell-tale mint mark, so after considerable discussion and consultation we certified it as having been struck from an 1851-dated obverse die and an O-mintmarked reverse die, with the O Mint mark mostly removed from the coin after the strike(s).

We were wrong. I blew it. As mentioned in the various references above a group of us compared it to some other 1851 Restrikes in 1992 and we matched both obverse and reverse dies to a normal restrike without an O mint mark. The person who made the coin DID indeed remove the date from the host coin but not the mint mark. My bad for expecting logic.

The registration between the first strike and the second strike(s) is flawless. I tried to find any evidence of close double striking and there is none. The coiner must have put one die (I am guessing the obverse) in a medal press, fit the coin into that die, fit the other die atop the coin with perfect registration except for the protruding O, and caused the press to strike the coin.

TD

tradedollarnut · February 2, 2019 4:29PM

FYI: the coin went to The Fund after I sold it my seated dollar set. When I bought the set back, it included the 1851-O. I quickly wholesaled it off for $200k as in my mind it is nothing more than a restrike over an O mint host coin.

CaptHenway · February 2, 2019 4:53PM

@tradedollarnut said:
FYI: the coin went to The Fund after I sold it my seated dollar set. When I bought the set back, it included the 1851-O. I quickly wholesaled it off for $200k as in my mind it is nothing more than a restrike over an O mint host coin.

Did you see any remnant of an underdate?

Report of an 1851-O “proof” dollar

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