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coin22lover

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astrorat

That's really tough from the images. What positive diagnostics have you thinking it may be the O.148?

lkenefic

I'm not sure there's enough meat left on this piece to make a positive diagnostic. I'll leave this one to the experts...

1827, O-148, R6+, Square Base 2, Capped Bust, Half Dollar
Variety Attribution: Obverse-Nearly all stars show recutting with small extra points, with stars 7, 11, and 12 the most noticeable. Star 1 is 1 mm. from Drapery. Star 13 is 1/4 mm. from Curl. Date is 8 mm, with a tall serif on base of 2. A die line (extension of curl) between L and I in LIBERTY joins headband to curl at bottom and to cap above.

Reverse- 50 C. is 1 1/2 mm. and high. Arrow to A is 3/4 mm. Right side of T and left side of I in line. Two lower crossbars extend into right wing. There is a sharp dot just above eagle's beak.

coin22lover

@astrorat said:
That's really tough from the images. What positive diagnostics have you thinking it may be the O.148?

I think I see a faint remnant of the beak dot toward the left edge of the little scratch, if you use your imagination you can almost see it in the pics. And star 7 looks to point kind of high. And 50c sorta seems to be positioned correctly. Stars 6 and 7 line up with the dentils correctly too, it appears. And the scroll looks like it's in the right spot relative to D and M.

astrorat

Both of the dies were used as part of other die marriages. The obverse (Obv. 21) was also used on O.131, O.132, and O.133. The reverse (Rev. AG) was also used on O.143.

The 'dotted beak' is quite visible on both O.143 and O.148, but it's not so visible on O.148a.

I can't tell from your images. But you seem to have really good luck at cherrypicking these rarities ... so I hope you found another one!

OKbustchaser

Not the 143/148 reverse IMO. Note how on the dotted beak reverse the tip of the olive branch only extends to the outer edge of the C while on the OP it extends nearly to the center of the stand.
Also, nearly every stripe of the shield has at least one line extending to the second crossbar. On the OP I don't see any.

My guess, based on the pics is 131, but I would love to see it in hand to be sure.

opportunity

I can say it's not a 131. The 50 isn't positioned right to be a 131.

If the 148 were a common variety, that would seem like a really good guess, but because the 148 is so rare, the odds are naturally against you. Put it this way, I can't find a tangible reason that it's NOT the 148, other than the fact that it's so rare.

Has anyone ever had a CBH in this low of grade attributed by PCGS?

astrorat

@opportunity said:
I can say it's not a 131. The 50 isn't positioned right to be a 131.

If the 148 were a common variety, that would seem like a really good guess, but because the 148 is so rare, the odds are naturally against you. Put it this way, I can't find a tangible reason that it's NOT the 148, other than the fact that it's so rare.

Has anyone ever had a CBH in this low of grade attributed by PCGS?

At the risk of offending our hosts, PCGS does not have a great track record of attributing Overton varieties. Showing the coin, in person, to some knowledgable BHNC members would be the way to go before submitting to PCGS. There's a gathering at most major coin shows. Another option would be to take to dealers David Kahn or Sheridan Downey ... both are Capped Bust half savants and as honorable as the day is long.

OKbustchaser

Any other ideas on this?

coin22lover

I'm convinced that it most certainly is. Just to humor any doubters, I went through the entire Overton book to rule out the possibility of it being another year entirely. Nothing from another year was even close, so it is definitely an 1827. That's a start.

There were a few other possibilities and even probabilities, but a careful check of star spacing and alignments, as well as the stem to C spacing, etc...I think I've concluded that yes it is a 148. It would be very helpful is the dot over the beak was stronger, but many 148's have a weak dot or even no dot, even in higher grades, so me having to sort of use my "imagination" to see what I think is a faint dot there (you may see it too if you look very closely) really disproves nothing.

Notice the star alignments, as well as a close comparison of the star spacing compared to the F12 below. Stars 5-6 and 6-7 are relatively equally spaced, whereas 4-5 are closer. Then it looks like you have the correct spacing and position of star 8 from the head, and to a great extent, star 13. Moving to the reverse, notice carefully the positions of 50 C and the stem, as well as the scroll. On the low grade one, the scroll does seem to align with the left side of the D above and the base of M properly as you can make out when you look at it.

Look also carefully at the dentil alignment on the obverse with the lines I've drawn. You can pretty much make out the dentils above stars 6 and 7 pretty well, and they do seem to align properly.

NOW WHO CAN I SELL MY STORY TO?

GoBust

Your analysis looks pretty thorough overall coin22lover. I'm not quite sure myself. Definitely could be a 148 IMHO, I just can't be definitive on such a low grade specimen. Perhaps a few more bust half buys could weigh in that are sharper than this nut. What do others think if coin22lover analysis? Do you consider it definitive?

habaraca

I don't see the line through the headband between the L and I on the OP coin

coin22lover

I also did this image blending on the reverse at different degrees of transparency between the low grade one and a known VF35, it seems a perfect match

DIMEMAN

I'm just a Bust Dime guy, but the presentation looks pretty good to me. It has a shot especially if those diagnostics shown are not present on any other 1827. That's what I do on Dimes I rule out the ones it can't be and see what's left. Trouble is here that there are so many it would take a while to do it that way.

astrorat

To paraphrase some lawyers I have heard ... "The truth doesn't matter, it's what you can prove in court."

Whether you (or I) "know" it's an O.148 is not as relevant as whether or not someone is willing to buy the coin as an O.148. In order to make that a reality, I think you need some documented support from a well-respected member of the "Overton Community." And that's not a TPG. My bet is on Sheridan Downey or David Kahn.

Let's assume it's an O.148. Less than 20 pieces are known with this one the most worn (the next in line are a couple of G-4 examples). One G-4 sold for $4400 in April 2012 and the cleaned G-4 sold for $2760 in November 2012. The next in the grading line is a F-12 that sold for $14,400 in February 2018. My best guess ... which is really just a guess ... would be that a FR-2 example would sell in the $3000-$5000 today.

That's a lot of beans for a "you gotta stretch to see the variety" coin, irrespective whether it's an R6+ or not. I think your best route to a sale is to have the coin in a PCGS holder with the Overton variety on the label and a letter (with the coin's image) from Downey or Kahn.

I like your coin and it's a 'perfect' highly-circulated CBH. You also seem to have this uncanny ability to cherrypick these rare die marriages. So my money is on you being right. Keep us informed.

23Pairer

@astrorat said:
To paraphrase some lawyers I have heard ... "The truth doesn't matter, it's what you can prove in court."

Whether you (or I) "know" it's an O.148 is not as relevant as whether or not someone is willing to buy the coin as an O.148. In order to make that a reality, I think you need some documented support from a well-respected member of the "Overton Community." And that's not a TPG. My bet is on Sheridan Downey or David Kahn.

Let's assume it's an O.148. Less than 20 pieces are known with this one the most worn (the next in line are a couple of G-4 examples). One G-4 sold for $4400 in April 2012 and the cleaned G-4 sold for $2760 in November 2012. The next in the grading line is a F-12 that sold for $14,400 in February 2018. My best guess ... which is really just a guess ... would be that a FR-2 example would sell in the $3000-$5000 today.

That's a lot of beans for a "you gotta stretch to see the variety" coin, irrespective whether it's an R6+ or not. I think your best route to a sale is to have the coin in a PCGS holder with the Overton variety on the label and a letter (with the coin's image) from Downey or Kahn.

I like your coin and it's a 'perfect' highly-circulated CBH. You also seem to have this uncanny ability to cherrypick these rare die marriages. So my money is on you being right. Keep us informed.

Well put, great answer.

coin22lover

I've made an additional observation with a little help from an outside source. The 143 and 148 have a more narrow vertical stripe (2nd from left) on the shield. You can see this here on the 143 (in this case, easier to see on the AU58 in Coinfacts...too bad we can't see more images in Coinfacts yet, cough cough)... https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1827-50c-overton-143-square-base-2/39743 and also here on the 148's... https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1827-50c-overton-148-square-base-2/39746

Notice it here on the known F12 also:

And again for reference:

I've been through all of the 1827's here, and from what I can tell, certainly none of the ones that are even remotely similar have a narrow 2nd vertical stripe in the shield. If you're bored, feel free to double check me by clicking through all 49 varieties, noting star positions (especially star 7) and stem to C positions on the reverse as your quick reference points to rule out "can't be" varieties:
http://www.maibockaddict.com/1827-o-101-r2-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml

shorecoll

I'm 100% with Lane, I buy your argument, but send it to Sheridan, if he's not sure, he can bring in the other big guns of BHNC, and get it certified and you'll be gold.

Catbert

@coin22lover I can’t add to the discussion, but just want to toss my admiration toward you for your detective work!

coin22lover

I wonder. Should I just attempt the grading myself first? I'm inclined to, but am afraid someone at PCGS will say "what are they smoking" and just reject it because they don't want to spend an hour figuring it out.

Unknown

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ms70

@Realone said:
Lets cut to the chase, you only care because You are just going to sell it and it would mean more $.
Why does everything seem to be ....follow the money?
What if it were about pure numismatics, now that would be music to my ears.

So what if that's the case? It would go to someone who would truly appreciate it. In the meantime he's enjoying the chase and I'm enjoying reading about it.

Unknown

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Nysoto

A good photographic overlay will get one step closer to attribution. When 1807 O.115 was discovered on this forum, series experts were not convinced until an overlay was done (the dentil count actually proved it, but not to some people). Since stars and letters are hand punched on working dies, there will always be some variation in placement from die to die on these features. Do an overlay with O.148, and all other DM's that are possibilities, and the differences will become evident.

coin22lover

@Realone said:

@ms70 said:

@Realone said:
Lets cut to the chase, you only care because You are just going to sell it and it would mean more $.
Why does everything seem to be ....follow the money?
What if it were about pure numismatics, now that would be music to my ears.

So what if that's the case? It would go to someone who would truly appreciate it. In the meantime he's enjoying the chase and I'm enjoying reading about it.

I just like/respect/admire pure numismatics for the education/research and the love of collecting and not purely for the money, that's all.

I look forward to your giveaway...

shorecoll

If you submit it directly, it might be hit or miss. If Sheridan or David confirm it, it would almost be a rubber stamp.

amwldcoin

I had a rare one I bought from you that several members of the BNHC shot down and had removed from ebay because they could not see all the diagnostics. I submitted the coin with a note of my evidence as to why it could only be that variety and PCGS attributed and graded it AG-3. I relisted it on ebay with Nah Na Nah Na Nah Na in my title smacking the BHNC. Got several messages from club members saying they would not do that and the buyer was totally happy and shocked that they could not attribute it. Even Glenn Peterson wouldn't confirm it when I showed it to him at a show. It was cut and dry!

@coin22lover said:
I wonder. Should I just attempt the grading myself first? I'm inclined to, but am afraid someone at PCGS will say "what are they smoking" and just reject it because they don't want to spend an hour figuring it out.

BustDMs

@Realone said:

@ms70 said:

@Realone said:
Lets cut to the chase, you only care because You are just going to sell it and it would mean more $.
Why does everything seem to be ....follow the money?
What if it were about pure numismatics, now that would be music to my ears.

So what if that's the case? It would go to someone who would truly appreciate it. In the meantime he's enjoying the chase and I'm enjoying reading about it.

I just like/respect/admire pure numismatics for the education/research and the love of collecting and not purely for the money, that's all.

There is no pure numismatics anymore, maybe never, as money has ALWAYS corrupted the “science”.

I’ll use dear Dr. Sheldon as my most obvious example.

astrorat

@Realone said:

Lets cut to the chase, you only care because You are just going to sell it and it would mean more $.
Why does everything seem to be ....follow the money?
What if it were about pure numismatics, now that would be music to my ears.

Stop being silly. If you spent hours and hours wading through Trade dollars and found a duplicate rare variety would you sell /trade it as a common coin? Of course not, you would want to maximize your return.

@coin22lover has a talent for cherrypicking. I bet she spends many, many hours honing her craft and the payoff is selling the rare varieties she finds. Why should she not seek the most for her work and talent?

coin22lover

Could anyone with skills possibly do an image overlay with another 148?
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1827-50c-overton-148-square-base-2/39746

Image editing isn't my strong suit, and I think my pics may be at a slight angle which is throwing it off. I was never able to align any but a portion of the coin in the sense that it was too large or small.

habaraca

Calling Lance.....

Bigbuck1975

@habaraca said:
Calling Lance.....

@Lkeigwin

lkeigwin

Looks good to me.
Lance.

BryceM

Ha. Lance @lkeigwin and I were working on the same thing at the same time. I reported my stuff in the other thread.... and slowly but independently came to the same conclusion. We used a different comparison coin and mine has some distortion on the reverse which I think is just an oblique photo, but I think it's the O-148:

GoBust

These are really fun to look at, excellent effort Gentleman. Does it appear that the middle arrow head is now attached to the above arrow shaft? Does the space between the sixth set of vertical shield stripes to the right edge of the shield narrow by half? Do people think these changes are from wear? Do other worn examples demonstrate arrow heads merging when they were previously well separated?

coin22lover

There's definitely a good chance one or both of my pics have a slight angle to them since they were taken with a phone. I certainly appreciate the two of you helping me out with the overlays. As a few of you may remember, this is now the 2nd O-148 that I've found, the first being the F12 seen above, back about 5-6 years ago. Unbelievably, I bought this one as a lowball, not because I thought anything of the variety.

@GoBust said:
These are really fun to look at, excellent effort Gentleman. Does it appear that the middle arrow head is now attached to the above arrow shaft? Does the space between the sixth set of vertical shield stripes to the right edge of the shield narrow by half? Do people think these changes are from wear? Do other worn examples demonstrate arrow heads merging when they were previously well separated?

In my experience with very low grade Bust Halves and other coins, features can certainly appear to "melt together" as you're suggesting. I'm not exactly sure how or why, but also, the edges on such low grade coins can often appear to be rounded (so as it would be even harder to balance the coin on its side).

Moldnut

With all this debate whether it is or it isnt this or that, , do people really want to pay extra for that? Come on!

OKbustchaser

@Moldnut said:
With all this debate whether it is or it isnt this or that, , do people really want to pay extra for that? Come on!

Yes

I would guess somewhere in the 1600 to 1750 range. A G-4 brought 4675 last month.

coin22lover

@Moldnut said:
With all this debate whether it is or it isnt this or that, , do people really want to pay extra for that? Come on!

With the variety on a holder, absolutely. I doubt anyone will buy it from me raw.

Treashunt

@Moldnut said:
With all this debate whether it is or it isnt this or that, , do people really want to pay extra for that? Come on!

Surely they will buy it.

Moldnut

@coin22lover said:

@Moldnut said:
With all this debate whether it is or it isnt this or that, , do people really want to pay extra for that? Come on!

With the variety on a holder, absolutely. I doubt anyone will buy it from me raw.

I agree with this.

astrorat

@coin22lover said:

@Moldnut said:
With all this debate whether it is or it isnt this or that, , do people really want to pay extra for that? Come on!

With the variety on a holder, absolutely. I doubt anyone will buy it from me raw.

Don't count your beans before your water boils (I have no idea why that metaphor came to mind ... ).

Please consider that you likely need something more than the PCGS label with the Overton variety. At the risk of offending our host, in the CBH serious collector community, PCGS (and NGC) do not have a stellar reputation with respect to attributing Capped Bust halves. In the buyer's mind won't likely be doubt about the attribution, but the doubt will likely be about resale. I will PM an idea to you.

savitale

Nice find. I hope it works out.

coin22lover

.

coin22lover

@lkeigwin said:
Looks good to me.
Lance.

Finally got around to sending this in...I'm bumping the thread in hopes the right person at PCGS will see it. I did leave a note on the submission to check the US Coin forum, as well as the pickup points with the star positions and narrow stripe #2 on the shield. Hopefully the right eyes see this @HeatherBoyd

Hemispherical

@coin22lover Let us know the results, please.

BryceM

Good for you!

Thanks for the update. The vast majority of threads like this are forgotten. Always nice to know what happened.

habaraca

So where are the new pictures??

coin22lover

TTT...I hope someone in the grading dept. sees this.

BustDMs

So now the other magic question, how much?

coin22lover

@BustDMs said:
So now the other magic question, how much?

How much what?