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Clemens a good investment with HOF pending?
DeweyFinn
Posts: 9 ✭
Wondering what your take is on speculating on high grade, lower (relative term, I know!) Roger Clemens Cards like 84 Fleer, 85 Topps Tiffany, etc
Has the run-up in value already happened? Or do we think the HOF vote (maybe later today!) will spike new demand and higher values?
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Unfortunately, it looks like Clemens and Bonds are going to get in either this year or next... But a LOT of collectors have no interest in either of them (or in McGwire, Sosa, etc.) so I don't think you'll see a spike in values of their cards.
DesertIceSports.Com
i would disagree with deserticesports. The guys he mentioned have big collector bases and their cards are trending up, minus Sosa. The 85 tiffany Mac and Clemens cards are cornerstone 1980's cards with, I believe, room to grow. There was a Clemens sale a month ago for $7800.00
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Will be interesting to see if either one breaks the 60% threshold this yewar. Vote percentages after second half ballots come usually go lower. Last year both Clemens and Bonds were around 70% at this point and wound up finishing in high 50s.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Steroids or not, Clemens was one of the best. I could see a move higher from here.
Even if they did get in you will only see a short term spike. If you plan on selling then, then good idea, if you are looking more long term I would not see a major shift in prices from today.
I don’t see them getting in this year.
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
Clemens was a sure fire HOF’er WITHOUT the juice. Shame he got caught up in it.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
So was Bonds. Really even moreso than Clemens.
I don't understand why voters think it's their job to determine who was on stuff and who wasn't.
I don't understand why players who didn't need steroids to be great used them.
To answer your post it's because the HOF wasn't established for statistical achievements only, it was more for sportsmanship. MANY on these boards do not care a bit about that.
"I don't understand why voters think it's their job to determine who was on stuff and who wasn't."
You must be kidding...
DesertIceSports.Com
Sportsmanship!?!?! You must be kidding. There are TONS of bigots, spitballers, bat corkers and generally had guys in the hall. Even from the start.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
ron santo or barry bonds? billy williams or mark mcgwire? elston howard or sammy sosa? tony oliva or manny ramirez? no pete rose, no roger clemens. there are so many good players in hof, but many hofers who are not. the sports writers and voters take their jobs to serious. i think the public should vote them out and replace them with fans.
the hof should have only great players, not above average, not because they were the german to hit a double. they can still have a section in the hall that recognizes the good players like some of the ones in the hof i mentioned above, but the true hofers should be the ones glorified. and i don't care if clemens took viagra to help him win games, there are plenty of people that use it and they couldn't strike out a nine year old.
You couldn't be more wrong. Clemens ranks behind wajohnson and maybe behind grove. He is either the second or third best starting pitcher in history. Statistics, both simple and advanced bear this out. Being popular or "forgetable" is of absolutely no value in a discussion of best players. Who cares if he was "beloved"? He may not be cashed over like jeter, but he is far from forgettable. In fact, Last i knew, Susan waldmen was in tears of ecstasy when Clemens returned to NY.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He was a cheater, though, so all of those impressive stats are tainted at best.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Like it or not but popularity has a lot to do with card values along with stats and championships. Fact is Clemens and Bonds were not well liked prior to roid usage, and while they have great stats they are disliked and tainted due to cheating.
Group think. Where is the proof? It boiled down to Macnamees word against Clemens. My opinion on Clemens has evolved over the last few years. If you really look at the case and the evidence, there is nothing there.
On second thought, I forgot about the 5 year old beer can full of syringes and gauze. I guess that's the ironclad smoking gun. What could be more sterile than that.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
To say Clemens wasn't dominant is kinda far off. Bonds was dominant.
Don't know and probably nobody can for sure 100% convict them on Ped use.
Probably many more used. Can we say they were the best cheaters of the cheaters. Clemens was revered in Boston...until he left.
Both their cards will go up. That is as long as the possibility of the HOF is there. If either have to wait until the veteran's committee then who knows.
Our country is becoming more and more drug addicted....opioids and legalized marijuana......the general opinion of ped use may diminish. Eventually both will get in.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Exactly. Popularity determines a lot in this hobby. Was Mantle a better player than Mays? His card prices act like it.
I think the spike already happened when Clemens and Bonds started to get serious HOF %. The 1984 Fleer Update Clemens may have a little more room to run since it is his only 1984 RC. It is rare to have any 1980's or 1990's star that has one RC that can be called the first. The only other "star" player I can think of is the 1983 TT Strawberry.
1985 Topps McGwire
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Don - That's right. I also thought of the 1986 Sportflics Barry Larkin
Some of us had to have our own 86T Traded created to fill the gap ...
No.
How did Sportflics know to include Larkin and Topps/Fleer/Donruss all missed him to the regular and update sets?
T/F/D were full of Stillwell fans? Topps missed him from the Olympic subset in 85 too. If only Bowman had returned a few years earlier ...
Well, one of the most important determinants in HOF voting is integrity... If someone simply don't care about a player's integrity, then they have no business voting... Unfortunately, many in America no longer value honesty and integrity, but some of us still do... And, based on what they said and did during the latter parts of their careers, as well as their conduct during the steroid investigations, Bonds and Clemens have none.
DesertIceSports.Com
I seem to recall this had to do with Larkin still having college eligibility at the time, or hadn't yet declared for the draft, or that they were only using seniors in the set, something like that...???...the details are a little fuzzy for me. I believe Will Clark was also on the 84 Olympic Team and left out of the 85 subset for the same reason.
When these guys make it to hof, they will be included on psa hof registry sets as well. That will be another new layer of demand. What will an 87 op c bonds in psa 10 well for then?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You know, I've wanted a 1984 Fleer Clemens in a PSA 10 for a long time, but I've never felt the urgency to buy one. I don't think it's ever been about the money; I could get one right now if I wanted to. I think it's because of this: in 1987, when I was 11, I saved up all my allowance, birthday money, Christmas money, loose change, etc. to buy that 1984 Update set. I mean, I broke the bank to get that set. I was 11 years old. I wanted that set more than anything in the world. An LCS in my hometown (very small LCS (closet size) to match a very small town) had the set, and only one. I told the owner (Dave was his name -- oddly enough, Dave and his wife bought the house I grew up in about 5 years ago), "I want to buy that set, and I don't want you to sell it to anyone until I have enough money to buy it." He set it aside for me. I bough it, eventually. That Clemens is mine, and it has been mine for the last 31 years. And while it will not garner a 10 if I send it in for grading, it's mine because I earned every penny of it because my 11-year-old self would not stop until I got it. Its value transcends value. That's why I cannot justify buying a PSA 10. I have my own PSA 10 even if it's not graded. I earned that sucker.
Andy
If I remember correctly, Sportflics was late to the game in 1986 and pushed out their product much, much later than T/F/D. So, they had an opportunity to see Larkin play in the season.
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Another year, Clemens gets only 59.5%..
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
Good... Should be 0%
Bonds too.
DesertIceSports.Com
Funny. You think no one in the hof ever cheated or used PED? You would be mistaken
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That's a strawman argument... Just because someone who's already in may have cheated, that means we should let in two guys we KNOW cheated? By that logic we should let in all 8 of the guys who were banned for throwing the 1919 World Series because someone else in the HOF may have intentionally tanked too.
DesertIceSports.Com
Ok, bonds admitted use, albeit unknowingly. How do you KNOW Clemens used. The whole case against him was brought by a disgruntled former employee. It was Macnamees word vs Clemens word. Oh yeah, and a 5 year old empty beer can with needles and gauze.
Gambling is a completely different topic, stay focused here.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
"How do you KNOW Clemens used"
The case against Clemens was overwhelming, to say the least... About the only thing they didn't have was a video of him being injected... I was a HUGE fan of his before that happened, but the way he conducted himself during and after the hearings sickened me and convinced me he was guilty... Given all the evidence against him, I think the only reason some people still believe he never touched PEDs is just wishful thinking.
"Gambling is a completely different topic, stay focused here."
It's not about gambling vs. PEDs, it's that your argument was a logical fallacy.
DesertIceSports.Com
1984 Fleer Update Kirby Puckett
Steve
Also, 1986 Donruss Fred McGriff.
Steve
I loved watching Clemens. Followed his career daily from 1986 and was probably my favorite player. His actions during the investigation and the pitiful denial including blaming his wife made it impossible to like him. I am baffled that people are even remotely suggesting he didn't use. I realize gambling on baseball is thought of as the cardinal sin but in my view stepping on the field with a body that isn't yours is worse. I am not a baseball historian and would classify as just a casual fan at this point but anyone suggesting that steroids do not drastically change performance is delusional. The only argument that is potentially valid is that so many in the league were using that it wasn't really cheating since it was somewhat of a level playing field. That said the HOF tries to compare stats across generations and a pitcher pumped full of compounds is clearly at an extreme advantage to someone who wasn't. I have to think a lot of the players just want the PED talk to go away so they can ride off into the sunset with most thinking they are clean. What is more plausible is that MLB was like cycling where almost everyone was on something. We will never know but if Clemens in some minds gets a free pass the discussion surrounding it is pointless when the most obvious suspects aren't guilty.
Edit: I have a box with some graded cards where a few Clemens are and his 1985 Fleer lists him at 205. He was quoted as weighing in the 240's during his career at one point and I see online it says 235. Try doing as much cardio as he did and putting on 30 to 40 pounds naturally. I like to watch a lot of Youtube videos about bodybuilding and the first thing they all say about determining steroid use is the eye test. Does it make sense? In the case of Bonds and Clemens not a chance.
LOL
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
you are speaking in generalities. What SPECIFICALLY was the evidence against him? you said it was overwhelming, OK, where is the hard evidence? The syringes and gauze in a years old beer can? That would not be considered evidence in any court of law, and it wasn't valid evidence in this case either. It really boiled down to one mans word against another mans word. Mac was a disgruntled former employee with an axe to grind, and did he ever grind it.
you were the one who brought up gambling, not me. I was telling you to stay focused.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
PLEASE PLEASE read what I am writing, HOF was established that way. The statistical achiever lovers have ignored that in many cases.
Look up the qualifications to be considered for enshrinement.
I am against any of the proven/admitted juicers going in. YES guys cheated and got in.
To answer OP; Clemens' cards are already expensive 85 Topps Tiffany recently went for almost $8000.00, 84 Fleer Updates go for around 6-700.00.
I don't think his cards will jump too much if he gets in, but you never can tell!
It was well documented that Ruth used an illegal bat in the early 1920's and was caught. is that sporting? should he not have been considered for enshrinement? as far as character, what about adrian anson? He didnt have much. should he be a hofer?
or is a little cheating OK? maybe a medium amount of cheating is acceptable for HOF consideration. what about if something is considered cheating and then not? take Brett's pine tar home run. what if something is legal (like spitballs and andro) and then not? could those players be eligable? Piazza is an admitted user of andro and he got in. now, do three or four cases of little cheating (bat corking etc.) equal one case of big cheating?
see how slippery this slope has gotten.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I was thinking about this topic at the gym this morning after my response and the really tough part is I think MLB is at fault. They knew funny business was going on and did nothing and that encouraged more use. How can you play a competitive game knowing your competition is using something and not use it yourself? Your livelihood is at stake.
Not the HOF but your job, your career, and all of the wonderful things that come with it. Money, sex, fame and on and on. When the original chase for the home run record kicked into high gear I know I was swept up in the drama. It was amazing and gave you a reason to follow baseball. Watching the 85 Topps McGwire explode and the rest of the cards from that era was incredible.
I used to go to the library in college to check the EBAY listings and cards were exploding. I wanted in not out. A few years later when Bonds was heating up I purchased factory sets looking for razor sharp copies. When they tripled in value I wasn't thinking about Bonds head looks like it wants to explode. I was thinking damn Dave you were smart to buy these as you saw them taking off.
A few years later I think is when it really started to come out and then it became an issue that you had to think about. I listened to a talk radio guy in Orlando who would rant and rave about how Bonds was natural and it was just people being haters and I remember calling in and saying you can't be serious look at baseball cards from 86 and look at the backs and what these guys weighed. He did the typical your crazy and hung up to go to the next caller.
Honestly I think when I cared was once the cards started crashing. My prized baseball cards that I was so proud to own were now tainted and heading south. Watching grown men that I looked up to bold face lie and insult the public's intelligence was awful. I care more about that then I do the use.
Had some of these guys just came clean I think the public would be more forgiving. People despise Lance Armstrong not because he cheated but how he handled it and the pain he put others through in the process of keeping his lie going. A hypocrite is one of the worst things you can be.
Baseball card collectors have already spoken and bid the prices of many of these guys cards back up to where they were but I don't see the HOF writers budging anytime soon. Card collectors can look passed personal transgressions and focus on nostalgia and I am a perfect example. I collect cards of men that in many cases did horrible things and choose to focus on the card not their character. Time and time again I have been on EBAY and almost bought Dwight Gooden PSA 10's and just haven't pulled the trigger. Why? Because he was the man when I started collecting and owning one of his cards was like owning a piece of gold. Baseball card collecting is what gave many my age an entrepreneurial spirit from a very young age and helped us become enterprising and good at math. For that I am thankful and the images represent a time of purity in our lives that is in the past that we will never forget.
Most interesting that Brett used an illegal bat according to the rules and umpire ruled correctly and yet it was eventually overturned. That has always seemed wrong to me.
Not familiar with Adrian Anson's issues. Keeping Ruth out because of one incident? I doubt it. Was he penalized for that?
You do have to draw the line SOMEWHERE. How about if you know you were out and the ump called you safe? If you don't let him know, is that cheating? Should that keep you out of the hall?
To answer your question, I guess a little cheating has got to be ok, or there would probably be no HOF.
I certainly think the penalty should "fit the crime" and the slope is, and has always been, slippery.
My opinion on steroids is that proof or admission of use should keep you out. No, Mickey Mantle should not be out of the HOF if that's your next question, never been proven, at least in my mind. I don't think steroid use was ever legal, but the spitball was at one time.
I was reading the other day that ALL the writers at S.I. were in favor of Bonds because he was good enough without steroids to get in. While that is absolutely true. I do not share that opinion, same as Rose and his problems.
"you are speaking in generalities."
Generalities are all we have since Clemens refuses to directly answer any of the tough questions... But, when you look at the big picture, it's very clear he did it and is trying to sweep it under the rug... What's really funny about the situation is that if he had just come clean and apologized, a LOT more people would have forgiven him... But, instead he chooses to play everyone for fools... Fortunately, many of us are able to see right through his lies and deception... The guy has no integrity whatsoever, and if you can't see that, I can't help you.
DesertIceSports.Com