Red spots on Gold Buffalo PCGS slab

coincollect2018

Hello All,
I just received after a considerable delay my every first 2009-W gold buffalo in PCGS -PR70 DCAM from Apmex and noticed the reddish discoloration on the face and red spots on the back. Very disappointed. I paid $1345 when spot was $1245.
Any suggestions what to approach this, return back to Apex vs keep it, contact PCGS leading to lower or same grade if they try to 'fix it' etc
Thank you and appreciate any input
Adam

mapleman

I once returned a JFK .9999 commemorative but not to apmex. Seller had Cert #. Exchanged for a pristine one.

Mcm did the same on an RCM OZ gold bar. No problem.

That stuff is not going away at best

coincollect2018

@mapleman said:
I once returned a JFK .9999 commemorative but not to apmex. Seller had Cert #. Exchanged for a pristine one.

Mcm did the same on an RCM OZ gold bar. No problem.

That stuff is not going away at best

Does PCGS have any responsibility if a coin graded by them develop this????

GRANDAM

The spots can be removed very easily but would have to be cracked out of the holder obviously.

Very little chance of it down grading but that said why go to the expense?

APMEX should take it back and exchange it but who knows if they will or not? Probably will say copper spots don’t effect the grade but it kills the eye appeal IMHO. That said the copper spots don’t bother a lot of people but I am not one of them.

I would call APMEX and see what they say. I purchased (3) 1 oz Gold Buffalos and a 10 oz Silver Bar off them a few years ago and they just put them all in one of their heavy duty boxes with a piece of foam on top. When I opened the box a lot of the stacking rails were broken off the back of the slab. The pieces were clearly present in the sealed baggies they shipped in. I called them and they paid to ship them back and replaced them so give them a call and see what they say.

Good luck.

mapleman

I don't see how they could. IMO it would not have graded 70 with all that's going on. I suggest a call to C/S at Apmex.

mapleman

BTW Your Buff is an 09......

Smudge

Call customer service. Internet cannot replace a good old fashioned phone call.

coincollect2018

Reached out to APMEX CS and was told that return department would be reaching out with an email in the next 48 hrs. CS was unable to explain the term of return like shipping fees etc
I will update once I hear back from them.

@GRANDAM said:
The spots can be removed very easily but would have to be cracked out of the holder obviously.

Very little chance of it down grading but that said why go to the expense?

APMEX should take it back and exchange it but who knows if they will or not? Probably will say copper spots don’t effect the grade but it kills the eye appeal IMHO. That said the copper spots don’t bother a lot of people but I am not one of them.

I would call APMEX and see what they say. I purchased (3) 1 oz Gold Buffalos and a 10 oz Silver Bar off them a few years ago and they just put them all in one of their heavy duty boxes with a piece of foam on top. When I opened the box a lot of the stacking rails were broken off the back of the slab. The pieces were clearly present in the sealed baggies they shipped in. I called them and they paid to ship them back and replaced them so give them a call and see what they say.

Good luck.

coincollect2018

Agree, sorry for the typo

@mapleman said:
BTW Your Buff is an 09......

coincollect2018

Reached out as detailed previously, will update the group with 'return department' response, I am surprised they would ship something like this without noticing.

@Smudge said:
Call customer service. Internet cannot replace a good old fashioned phone call.

coincollect2018

So what happens in these situation with grading companies if the slab develop spots few year later, do they clean and regrade the same, lower or nothing, any fees etc

@mapleman said:
I don't see how they could. IMO it would not have graded 70 with all that's going on. I suggest a call to C/S at Apmex.

MilesWaits

Another big advantage of using APMEX or MCM is they are such large dealers that they tend to have enough supply to replace the coins that I find damaged in slabs.
As others have noted, they are always quick to respond and helpful.

coincollect2018

CS did look into that but unfortunately this was the last one so that was not an option.

@MilesWaits said:
Another big advantage of using APMEX or MCM is they are such large dealers that they tend to have enough supply to replace the coins that I find damaged in slabs.
As others have noted, they are always quick to respond and helpful.

mapleman

They should allow a return. Perhaps you used a purchase guarantee C.C.?

Smudge

@GRANDAM said:
The spots can be removed very easily but would have to be cracked out of the holder obviously.

Very little chance of it down grading but that said why go to the expense?

APMEX should take it back and exchange it but who knows if they will or not? Probably will say copper spots don’t effect the grade but it kills the eye appeal IMHO. That said the copper spots don’t bother a lot of people but I am not one of them.

I would call APMEX and see what they say. I purchased (3) 1 oz Gold Buffalos and a 10 oz Silver Bar off them a few years ago and they just put them all in one of their heavy duty boxes with a piece of foam on top. When I opened the box a lot of the stacking rails were broken off the back of the slab. The pieces were clearly present in the sealed baggies they shipped in. I called them and they paid to ship them back and replaced them so give them a call and see what they say.

Good luck.

How could a .999 gold coin have copper spots?

GRANDAM

Copper is in the alloy mix and sometimes it leaches to the surface.

Oxides is probably a better word to describe the copper spots appearing than the word leaching that I used in my original post above.

It takes awhile for this to happen and it doesn’t happen to all gold coins but it wasn’t there when slabbed and PCGS or any TPG company is not to blame for this happening.

If APMEX can’t replace see if they will foot the bill to send to PCGS for conservation and reslabbing. Probably not but you can ask.

coincollect2018

From my reading the web, it seems it may be the impurities on the dyes, copper or oils. However the conventional wisdom is that gold very tarnishes but...... it does

@GRANDAM said:
Copper is in the alloy mix and sometimes it leaches to the surface.

acloco

Send back and exchange IF they will guarantee the replacement is not in the same condition.

coincollect2018

I reached out to PCGS CS, I was told that it is very common for the modern gold coins to develop spots and it could be sent in for $22 restoration fee to see if it can be fixed. However the spots can come back again even after wards. She stated that the grade remains guaranteed and will not change.

GRANDAM

If you run the $22 fee by APMEX don’t forget to include shipping and handling fee’s both ways. It could easily add up to $70 or so total.

Downtown1974

If it’s for a set, it would bother me. If it’s for certified bullion, I would just keep it as is.
I love the gold Buffs!

mapleman

Unacceptable answer.

Walkerfan

It wouldn't bother me but it, obviously, bothers you, so I'd contact APMEX and see if you could send it back.

derryb

@coincollect2018 said:
CS did look into that but unfortunately this was the last one so that was not an option.

@MilesWaits said:
Another big advantage of using APMEX or MCM is they are such large dealers that they tend to have enough supply to replace the coins that I find damaged in slabs.
As others have noted, they are always quick to respond and helpful.

They do have them available in NGC PF 70. I'd settler for that instead of what you now have.

Hemispherical

@coincollect2018 I have had similar issues with coins/products from APMEX. They will offer a choice of exchange or refund. For an exchange they will provide shipping info. When they receive the coin/product they will the send a replacement. Refunds are quick, too.

Downtown1974

@mapleman said:
Unacceptable answer.

What is it that you cannot accept??

mapleman

Not Questioning the facts. It's a typical " it's not our problem you deal with " it response. OP needs to be insistent and In my experience it will be worked out to his satisfaction.

BTW. IMHO opinion the coin is a 'stiff'
J

Downtown1974

I’m confident Apmex will make good on it. As you pointed out it’s a 2009, so this very well could have been in a slab for years. Plenty of time for the “oxidation” process to occur. Just like milk spots on slabbed ASEs and Maples. Im sure they have plenty of them to replace it with. I usually avoid buying an item like this if it is being represented by a stock photo.

mapleman

Totally agree on all @Downtown1974 . It could serve @coincollect2018 well to send them some pics.

The obverse Issue is more like a stain to me than a spot.

Apmex can be a little ridged but they do value their C/S reputation.

RogerB

So-called "copper spots," black spots, and red-orange discoloration have been shown to result from contamination external to the coins themselves. The quantity of contamination - most commonly silver - is minute, and it can take years for the effects to become visible. The China National Mint solved its problem by completely isolating fine gold production from all other coin and bullion work, then instituting near-clean room procedures to prevent air borne contamination. The US Mint at West Point follows less stringent procedures although metals are isolated.

The instant a coin is removed from it's original packaging it is subject to new contamination at the place of removal and repackaging. I do not have data on the rate of appearance of red spots on original issue vs repackaged fine gold, but the greater the exposure the more likely is contamination to occur

mapleman

@RogerB said:
So-called "copper spots," black spots, and red-orange discoloration have been shown to result from contamination external to the coins themselves. The quantity of contamination - most commonly silver - is minute, and it can take years for the effects to become visible. The China National Mint solved its problem by completely isolating fine gold production from all other coin and bullion work, then instituting near-clean room procedures to prevent air borne contamination. The US Mint at West Point follows less stringent procedures although metals are isolated.

The instant a coin is removed from it's original packaging it is subject to new contamination at the place of removal and repackaging. I do not have data on the rate of appearance of red spots on original issue vs repackaged fine gold, but the greater the exposure the more likely is contamination to occur

The first thing I would do is Sygma the coin... just to verify the planchet purity. Anything's possible. I had a discussion with all Engelhard about an 82 silver prospector that is one of 118 of which 117 were dead on, that read next to, just about touching, the right bracket. He advised that the 82's had some planchet issues and that answered my strike question as well. You never know.....

mapleman

I should have typed OUTSIDE the right bracket. Can some please advise how to edit comments or posts?

RogerB

Press the ( * ) symbol. That will return you the editing mode of your post.

coincollect2018

I am new to this hobby but my initial impression was once you grade and encapsulate the coins, the coin is preserved in that graded for ever. Now what use is buying a PCGS PR-70 DCAM if the coin will deteriorate in the casing and loose it premium grading and value over time?

coincollect2018

click the little wheel sign on the right corner of your post next to the date and time to edit.

@mapleman said:
I should have typed OUTSIDE the right bracket. Can some please advise how to edit comments or posts?

mapleman

@RogerB said:

Press the ( * ) symbol. That will return you the editing mode of your post.

@coincollect2018 said:
click the little wheel sign on the right corner of your post next to the date and time to edit.

@mapleman said:
I should have typed OUTSIDE the right bracket. Can some please advise how to edit comments or posts?

Thank you both