Are Die Clashes "Varieties" or "Die Stages?"

My understanding is that a die clash is a die stage.

Since the die did not start out being hubbed like that, to me they are not varieties. The dies became damaged after the fact, so they would be die stages. I thought varieties are changes/flaws on a die before even a single coin is struck, so how could a clashed die be a variety?

~Joe C.

Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2018 11:32AM

    Your question is a good one and each term has a strict meaning although many of us don't care.
    That said, most die clashes are actually mistakes caused when the dies touched. :)

    Some, in the Indian and Seated Liberty series (to name two), are VERY COLLECTIBLE.

    Die breaks were not on the die at first but as they develop (die stage) they are often considered a variety.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 2,408 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks @Insider2 keeping it real while the clock is ticking down to the witching hour. Peace Roy

  • @Insider2 said:
    Your question is a good one and each term has a strict meaning although many of us don't care.
    That said, most die clashes are actually mistakes caused when the dies touched. :)

    Some, in the Indian and Seated Liberty series (to name two), are VERY COLLECTIBLE.

    Die breaks were not on the die at first but as they develop (die stage) they are often considered a variety.

    So technically they are in fact die stages, correct?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess technically yes. Let me be stupid here to make your point.

    A brand new die is put into the press. Each coin that it makes is going to be from a different "Die Stage" (I call them "die states" because they are "states" (conditions of the die) until it finally shatters. Until an obvious change occurs, you will probably not see any difference even with a microscope.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my amateur opinion...
    No a die clash is not a NATURAL die stage, it is a damaged die.
    Die stage is a state of wear on the die making the coins. Early, mid, late stage.
    A die is a die. A clashed die is “damaged”
    A coin is “normal” or a variety.
    A Die Variety would be for example,
    A reverse of 1938 or reverse of 1940. Or 1917 type 1 or 2 SLQ. Same coin, with design changes.

    When it clashes mid minting, every coin made post clash will be a Variety. It will be a variety because it will then have unique characteristics only found on clashes examples.
    When die clash marks are polished away or erased, this creates a SECOND OR THIRD Variety, the post repair variety.

    If you look at Franklin halves feel r a while and study the “Bugs bunny” varieties, they are all die clashes.
    When the die was heavily polished AFTER the clash, removing most evidence of the clash, it visible on close inspection that repairs were made. A repaired die will no longer make clash varieties, they will not be accepted or recognized, but since it has been modified twice (clash, repair) the third generation of coins will technically be another “Variety” but not recognized as such. Unless the die polish removes devices creating yet ANOTHER variety such as 2 feathers Buffalo or 3 leg Buffalo.

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