2019 Baseball Hall of Fame - Smith and Baines elected

SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 4,443 ✭✭✭
edited December 9, 2018 6:29PM in Sports Talk

Just announced, Lee Smith and Harold Baines elected to the HOF by the Today's Game Committee.

Steve

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  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 4,443 ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018 6:36PM

    12 votes (out of 16) were required for election. Lou Piniella got 11 votes. Everyone else got fewer than 5 votes each.

    Smith got 16 votes (unanimous), and Baines got 12.

    Steve

  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    What a joke

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @garnettstyle said:
    What a joke

    The Hall is a joke anyway...…..who cares!


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  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,129 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seriously? SJW committee :p

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭

    Smith being unanimous is a joke - PIniella getting 11 votes is even worse. He obviously is nowhere near worthy as a player so his selection would be as a manager. Was he really a great manager? 122 games over .500 - 70 of which came in one season - and one title. Is that REALLY a HOF-worthy resume as a manager? C'mon.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭

    Heck, if anything, Lou's teams UNDERperformed. 116 wins in 2001 - bounced in the ALCS. Had ARod, Griffey, Edgar, and Big Unit - won diddly poo with them.

  • ernie11ernie11 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 2:44AM

    I'm a minority opinion, but I've always been higher on Lee Smith in the HOF than most.

    The Baines induction shocked me far more. On one level, the vast majority of all players who have amassed as many as 2,866 hits and 1,628 RBI's are in the Hall. It's just that he got there by being a decently good player for a very long time, guess he's what you'd call a compiler. But looking at any individual year in his stats shows nothing to indicate that this guy was a dominant player in his era. Never higher than 9th in the MVP voting.

  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    So Baines is a HOFer, and Parker, Garvey, and Murphy are not? All those players won MVP's. Unbelievable.

    http://msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/baines-election-to-cooperstown-leaves-some-fans-baffled/ar-BBQJSJM?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UE12DHP

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You guys can machinate the stats. I was always a Baines fan and am glad to see him in the hall.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And MLB is a joke. Hall is merely a reflection.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 18,541 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The MLB HOF has been watered down for awhile now. They could honestly take 25% of the membership out and it might not be close to fixed.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    Baines certainly was a HOF type player when he played the Twins. Seems like he was always hitting the ball hard!

    I did NOT think he would make the Hall. Smith was a good decision.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    I think both are undeserving, and I am sort of a big hall kind of guy. take a look at Baines and Tony Perez's stats. very very similar. I guess if you agree with Perez being in the hall, Baines should be there as well. neither player was on the yearly leaderboards and both were compilers.

  • Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭

    I find it ironic that the people who use archaic methods to evaluate players are against Baines being in the HOF. Baines has over 1,600 career RBI, 34th most all-time...yet the same people who use RBI are saying he shouldn't be in the HOF? Odd.

    For clarification, the correct answer is that he does not belong in the HOF. The Perez comp above is an excellent comp...and Perez was actually better...and had more 'fame'.

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 771 ✭✭✭✭

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  • ernie11ernie11 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭

    For what it's worth, here's what Tony LaRussa thinks of Baines detractors:

    espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25518933/tony-la-russa-calls-harold-baines-detractors-weak

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    Tony LaRussa might know more than we do.

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  • keetskeets Posts: 20,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Baines was a good player but voting him into the HOF further waters down what is required for admission. how low can the bar get??


  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    I have lost some respect for LaRussa. He is very very clearly in the wrong here. talk about croneyism. look at the list of voters and their past relationships with Baines.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @3stars said:

    even Kevin disagrees with the vote.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I have lost some respect for LaRussa. He is very very clearly in the wrong here. talk about croneyism. look at the list of voters and their past relationships with Baines.

    Or maybe someone who has been in the major leagues since 1963 knows more about baseball than we do.

    From 1981-1999 OPS+ never was below 100. 20 HR and 30 doubles a year pretty damn good as well.

    I used to deliver uniforms to businesses (yeah, I know apples and oranges) and a guy at a transmission shop whined about how things were going and I tried to explain how it worked. He kept busting my balls and I finally told him that I wouldn't tell him how to repair a transmission and he didn't need to tell me how to do my job.

    I never would have thought of Baines as anything other than a good hitter that used to often obliterate Twins pitching, but if LaRussa says I am wrong, I probably am.

    Longevity has got to be what got him in.

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  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    20 HR and 30 doubles a year pretty damn good as well.

    Longevity has got to be what got him in.

    First, that's an odd thing to say about someone who hit 20+ HR in half of his seasons and only hit 30 doubles or more twice.

    It's also worth noting that the only reason his 100+ OPS streak lasted as long as it did is that he got benched against lefties for most of the second half of his career. In a 22 year career, he never did learn how to hit lefties, or even get better at it. (In case you were wondering why Baines only played 150+ games 4 times, now you know).

    No, Baines is in the HOF because his friends voted him in. There is no other side to it, and there is no way to shine that turd so it looks any prettier. He's not worse than High Pockets Kelly, Frankie Frisch' friend, but there's nobody else in the HOF, purely as a hitter, that's worse than Baines. Rusty Staub dwarfs Baines; Vada Pinson dwarfs Baines; Darrell Evans dwarfs Baines; and so on and so on and so on. To the degree that Baines' induction isn't met with the same ridicule that is directed at Kelly, then the bar for HOF admittance just got absurdly low. Jim Rice was not a HOF level player. There are 100+ people more qualified to be in the HOF than Jim Rice. Jim Rice was better than Harold Baines.

    dallasactuary

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  • fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭

    I certainly believe Lee Smith should never have had to wait for the Veterans committe to vote him in.He could pitch everyday if given the ball and had many 1 inning plus saves.

    P. O L. I. T. I C S.?????????????

    Tony(AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER ME)
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭

    Lee Smith 1022 games, 1289 innings, 3.03 ERA, 138 Runs saved
    Non-HOFer 1 545 games, 1242 innings, 2.83 ERA, 129 Runs saved
    Non-HOFer 2 674 games, 1043 innings, 2.76 ERA, 147 Runs saved
    Non-HOFer 3 1050 games, 1437 innings, 2.85 ERA, 137 Runs saved

    The only thing that stands out when comparing Smith to other relievers is that he pitched fewer innings per appearance than the others; sometimes a lot fewer. I have no idea why anyone sees a HOFer when they look at Smith, but there is nothing to see in Smith that can't be seen in quite a few other pitchers that, correctly, nobody views as a HOFer. I think all three of the others (Hiller, Quiz and Tekulve) were better than Smith, but I'm open to hearing arguments. What I am not open to hearing is that Lee Smith was so much better than the other three that he vaults from eventual obscurity to the HOF, because that's just absurd.

    The Runs saved stat, by the way, for some other relievers:

    Rivera: 334
    Wilhelm: 277
    Eck: 223
    Gossage: 167
    Sutter (lol): 111

    I will concede that the bar was set so low when Bruce Sutter got in that Smith doesn't lower it any further, but that was the danger in allowing in Bruce Sutter in the first place.

    dallasactuary

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  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    Tekulve was money in the 79 series.

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    @fiveniner said:

    P. O L. I. T. I C S.?????????????

    Sad but true.

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2018 10:09PM

    @dallasactuary said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    20 HR and 30 doubles a year pretty damn good as well.

    Longevity has got to be what got him in.

    First, that's an odd thing to say about someone who hit 20+ HR in half of his seasons and only hit 30 doubles or more twice.

    It's also worth noting that the only reason his 100+ OPS streak lasted as long as it did is that he got benched against lefties for most of the second half of his career. In a 22 year career, he never did learn how to hit lefties, or even get better at it. (In case you were wondering why Baines only played 150+ games 4 times, now you know).

    No, Baines is in the HOF because his friends voted him in. There is no other side to it, and there is no way to shine that turd so it looks any prettier. He's not worse than High Pockets Kelly, Frankie Frisch' friend, but there's nobody else in the HOF, purely as a hitter, that's worse than Baines. Rusty Staub dwarfs Baines; Vada Pinson dwarfs Baines; Darrell Evans dwarfs Baines; and so on and so on and so on. To the degree that Baines' induction isn't met with the same ridicule that is directed at Kelly, then the bar for HOF admittance just got absurdly low. Jim Rice was not a HOF level player. There are 100+ people more qualified to be in the HOF than Jim Rice. Jim Rice was better than Harold Baines.

    I get it. He wasn't a full time player so he only averaged 20 and 30 over a 162 game schedule. Kind of similar to Dave Kingman, who I also would not vote for, if I had a vote.

    I would not have voted for him. I think Oliva (among others) was better, and Tony-O was a full time player who had bad knees, shortening his career.

    I am also fine with you and anyone else saying his friends got him in.

    I am also fine with an ex professional player and manager saying you are wrong. Tony has more credibility than anyone that I know of on these boards, so (even though I would not have voted Baines in) I will grudgingly give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Did I mention that I wouldn't vote for him? Unlike most people, I sometimes am wrong. This MIGHT be one of those times.

    Moving on.

    Edited to add; to be fair, he did hit 29 doubles in a season 5 times.

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  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can't believe it !!! :'(

    Timbuk3
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    I think Oliva (among others) was better, and Tony-O was a full time player who had bad knees, shortening his career.

    And there's a good example of why it's so sad when players like Baines get in the HOF. You said "think", but if you have any doubt at all that Tony O was better than Baines, you shouldn't; he was head and shoulders better than Baines. Just among players who played mostly RF, Baines was much worse than Oliva, Parker, Reggie Smith, Murcer, Bobby Bonds, Singleton, Dewey Evans, Staub, Pedro Guerrero and Colavito. He was close to, but still worse than, Ken Griffey (Sr.), and a handful more.

    It's just plain silly that Harold Baines is in the HOF. Tony LaRussa, like Frankie Frisch before him an ex-player and manager, made a mockery of the HOF. If LaRussa doesn't know that Tony Oliva was a better player than Baines, then he has no business on the committee; if he knows it, but voted for Baines and not Oliva anyway, then he has no business on the committee.

    dallasactuary

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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 18,858 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Smith and Baines getting in are shocking but it’s only going to get worse. Once the likes of Catfish Hunter,Tony Perez and Bruce Sutter get in the bar keeps getting set lower. It paves way for guys like Jim Rice, Trevor Hoffman’ and Jack Morris. Which just resets the bar lower and clears the way for the Baines and Smiths of the world. Never once watching Baines or Smith did I ever think future hall of famer.

    mark

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  • orioles93orioles93 Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭

    I have no issue with Smith getting in. He's in the category of "I would have voted for him, but if he didn't get in, I wouldn't have been super upset about it."
    Baines is quite baffling though. Real good hitter for a long time, played forever, compiled stats, almost 3000 hits. But to me, just an average to above average player who had an opportunity to play 22 seasons. He will be in the same category as Rice, Perez, etc.

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  • Catfish Hunter was a 8 time All-Star and 5 time World Champion. Crazy that someone would think he is not worthy of the Hall of Fame ! He was also the ace pitcher of one of baseball's greatest dynasties . I guarantee that his peers all would agree that he is worthy of Cooperstown.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭

    224 wins with a 104 ERA+.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @maxdome said:
    Catfish Hunter was a 8 time All-Star and 5 time World Champion. Crazy that someone would think he is not worthy of the Hall of Fame ! He was also the ace pitcher of one of baseball's greatest dynasties . I guarantee that his peers all would agree that he is worthy of Cooperstown.

    Hunter was not a good selection.

  • Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 18,858 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @maxdome said:
    Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

    Agree. Not a good selection. Good pitcher but It lowered the bar.

    m

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018 7:44PM

    @maxdome said:
    Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

    "They" didn't win any games, their teams did. Folks, wins are not an individual metric. And no, Hunter was not a good selection.

    Why do grown adults find it cute to write LOL or ROTFL or the like after posts they think are well put or especially witty? Good grief, that is middle and high school age girl stuff. Ugh.

  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 8,112 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018 8:17PM

    @craig44 said:

    @maxdome said:
    Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

    "They" didn't win any games, their teams did. Folks, wins are not an individual metric. And no, Hunter was not a good selection.

    Why do grown adults find it cute to write LOL or ROTFL or the like after posts they think are well put or especially witty? Good grief, that is middle and high school age girl stuff. Ugh.

    LMFAO Sorry you were apparently raised as an up tight, no fun, by the book, stale doughnut. Who apparently thinks the use of some fun additives on a HOBBY forum is juvenile or shows a lack of intelligence or education. I legit feel sorry for you man.

  • +1 for @craig44.

    "They didn't win any games, their teams did. Folks, wins are not an individual metric." Is probably the dumbest thing . I ever read on any sports forum !

  • Well said softparade .

  • orioles93orioles93 Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭

    There's a lot worse players to complain about in the hall than Catfish Hunter IMO.

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  • orioles93orioles93 Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭

    Over 10 years (1967-1976) he was an all star 7 times, 20+ wins 5 times in a row, a 2.99 ERA in 376 G 370 GS, a 1.09 WHIP, won 1 CY award with 3 other top 4 finishes. He also threw a complete game 43% of his starts. His teams also won 3 WS in that time, in which his ERAs were 2.81, 2.03, and 1.17. He may not be the best pitcher in the hall but he is no atrocity for being in. That's a darned good decade of pitching.

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  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 4,443 ✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2018 1:58AM

    @craig44 said:

    @maxdome said:
    Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

    Why do grown adults find it cute to write LOL or ROTFL or the like after posts they think are well put or especially witty? Good grief, that is middle and high school age girl stuff. Ugh.

    Says the guy with the Ernest P. Worrell avatar.

    Steve

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @maxdome said:
    Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

    "They" didn't win any games, their teams did. Folks, wins are not an individual metric. And no, Hunter was not a good selection.

    I KIND OF agree with what you are saying here, BUT then why wasn't any of the other pitchers on the same staff able to equal or exceed his numbers?

    According to former MLB umpire Ron Luciano, Hunter had the finest control of any pitcher he saw during his time in the Majors. Probably why Catfish had such a fantastic WHIP.

    Hunter had a shorter career, but was not that bad of a selection in my opinion.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @softparade said:

    @craig44 said:

    @maxdome said:
    Cy Young, Christy Mathewson and Catfish Hunter are the only pitchers in MLB history to have won at least 200 games by the age of 31. He retired early at the age of 33 due to chronic arm trouble and diabetes. Not a good selection ? LOL.

    "They" didn't win any games, their teams did. Folks, wins are not an individual metric. And no, Hunter was not a good selection.

    Why do grown adults find it cute to write LOL or ROTFL or the like after posts they think are well put or especially witty? Good grief, that is middle and high school age girl stuff. Ugh.

    LMFAO Sorry you were apparently raised as an up tight, no fun, by the book, stale doughnut. Who apparently thinks the use of some fun additives on a HOBBY forum is juvenile or shows a lack of intelligence or education. I legit feel sorry for you man.

    Oh I like to have fun, hence the Earnest P. Warrell picture, but I prefer to act as a grown man and not a teenaged girl. Of course, if you are in fact a teenaged girl, by all means LOL away. Far be it for me to presume who you are. Just a juvenile way to write.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @maxdome said:
    +1 for @craig44.

    "They didn't win any games, their teams did. Folks, wins are not an individual metric." Is probably the dumbest thing . I ever read on any sports forum !

    Ok, please explain to me how pitcher "wins" are an individual metric. Do even a teeny tiny little bit of research and you will find they mean hardly anything when evaluating a player. About as meaningless as RBI for hitters.

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    Ok, please explain to me how pitcher "wins" are an individual metric. Do even a teeny tiny little bit of research and you will find they mean hardly anything when evaluating a player. About as meaningless as RBI for hitters.

    You'll also discover that Hunter got better run support than the other, equally good or better, pitchers on his teams. Vida Blue was a better pitcher than Hunter; Ken Holtzman was equally as good as Hunter. In Hunter's years on the Yankees, Ed Figueroa was the ace of the pitching staff.

    Responding to various other posts (not craig44's):

    As for his "darned good decade" of pitching, note that Hunter was atrocious in 1968 and below average in 1970 and 1976. He only had three seasons that could be characterized as "very good" and zero that could be called "great". There are two pitchers in the HOF arguably worse than Hunter - Marquard and Morris - and both got voted in by their friends despite a total lack of HOF credentials. Of the pitchers who got in the "normal" way, Hunter is the worst, and by a comfortable margin.

    As for all the games his teams won while he was pitching there are metrics that do a fair job of allocating those wins to the people who actually won them. For his career, Hunter had a Win Probability Added of 14.0, meaning he was responsible for winning 14 more games - about 1 per season - more than an average pitcher. No shame in that, and if you're looking for the perfect phrase to describe Hunter, "above average" is the phrase you're looking for. Jack Morris, by the way, has 14.4; more in absolute terms, but less than 1 per season. Who else has about the same? Well, lots of people, but some examples are Mel Stottlemyre with 13.3, Jim Maloney with 13.9, Dave McNally with 14.4, Rick Reuschel with 14.8, John Candelaria with 15.1 and Jon Matlack with 15.3. These are the pitchers in Hunter's peer group; when they were on really good teams they won lots of games, too.

    Vida Blue with 22.3 is not in Hunter's peer group, he is far above it. Allie Reynolds with 17.6 and 6 World Series rings (and a 7-2 record in those Series) was also clearly better than Hunter. Same for Sam McDowell, Andy Messersmith, Jerry Koosman, Dave Stieb, Ron Guidry, Luis Tiant, Tommy John, and on and on and on and on and on. Where Hunter separates himself from these other, better, pitchers (other than Reynolds) is that he was on the best team in the majors five times and those five years coincided with his peak as pitcher.

    As a closing note, referring to the statement of fact that wins are a team stat as the dumbest thing ever written on a sports forum is the dumbest thing I have ever read on a sports forum.

    dallasactuary

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @craig44 said:
    Ok, please explain to me how pitcher "wins" are an individual metric. Do even a teeny tiny little bit of research and you will find they mean hardly anything when evaluating a player. About as meaningless as RBI for hitters.

    You'll also discover that Hunter got better run support than the other, equally good or better, pitchers on his teams. Vida Blue was a better pitcher than Hunter; Ken Holtzman was equally as good as Hunter. In Hunter's years on the Yankees, Ed Figueroa was the ace of the pitching staff.

    Responding to various other posts (not craig44's):

    As for his "darned good decade" of pitching, note that Hunter was atrocious in 1968 and below average in 1970 and 1976. He only had three seasons that could be characterized as "very good" and zero that could be called "great". There are two pitchers in the HOF arguably worse than Hunter - Marquard and Morris - and both got voted in by their friends despite a total lack of HOF credentials. Of the pitchers who got in the "normal" way, Hunter is the worst, and by a comfortable margin.

    As for all the games his teams won while he was pitching there are metrics that do a fair job of allocating those wins to the people who actually won them. For his career, Hunter had a Win Probability Added of 14.0, meaning he was responsible for winning 14 more games - about 1 per season - more than an average pitcher. No shame in that, and if you're looking for the perfect phrase to describe Hunter, "above average" is the phrase you're looking for. Jack Morris, by the way, has 14.4; more in absolute terms, but less than 1 per season. Who else has about the same? Well, lots of people, but some examples are Mel Stottlemyre with 13.3, Jim Maloney with 13.9, Dave McNally with 14.4, Rick Reuschel with 14.8, John Candelaria with 15.1 and Jon Matlack with 15.3. These are the pitchers in Hunter's peer group; when they were on really good teams they won lots of games, too.

    Vida Blue with 22.3 is not in Hunter's peer group, he is far above it. Allie Reynolds with 17.6 and 6 World Series rings (and a 7-2 record in those Series) was also clearly better than Hunter. Same for Sam McDowell, Andy Messersmith, Jerry Koosman, Dave Stieb, Ron Guidry, Luis Tiant, Tommy John, and on and on and on and on and on. Where Hunter separates himself from these other, better, pitchers (other than Reynolds) is that he was on the best team in the majors five times and those five years coincided with his peak as pitcher.

    As a closing note, referring to the statement of fact that wins are a team stat as the dumbest thing ever written on a sports forum is the dumbest thing I have ever read on a sports forum.

    You are absolutely correct Dallas about WPA. When I was referencing "wins" I was referring to the raw stat as seen on the back of baseball cards.

  • Catfish Hunter had several great years. To even argue that point is crazy. Comparing him to a average pitchers due to some so called advance stat is like me saying since some medicore QB has a higher QB rating than Tom Brady. That means he is better.

  • For a stat person you should know that Figueroa wasn't even on the Yankees in 1975. Also Catfish had a great year in 1975 and was the ace of the pitching staff. The only thing that stopped him from continuing to be the ace was chronic sore arm and diabetes and that is why he retired.

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