Thoughts on the HOF

markj111markj111 Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭
edited December 5, 2018 10:19PM in Sports Talk

In his 2019 Handbook, Bill James has a an article on the HOF that I found interesting. I highly recommend it. He looked only at position players Here are a few tidbits:

  1. Five worst players in the HOF: Tommy McCarthy, George "High Pockets" Kelly,Chick Hafey, Freddy Lindstrom, and Ross Youngs. No surprises there. Four of the five were from the Frankie Frisch debacle.
  2. Five best players not in the HOF (excluding gamblers and roiders): Bill Dahlen, Lou Whitaker, Ted Simmons, Dwight Evans, and Bobby Grich.

In the book each list contains 25 names. He looks at all players who meet a certain level of achievement (the books explains it). As an example, he names Reggie Smith as the 10th best player not in the HOF, and assigns him a record of 66-9. He is better than 66 people already in, and is worse than 9 players not in the hall. He assigns Mazeroski a record of 6-207. He is better than 6 other HOFERs, but is worse than 207 not in.

FWIW-he would vote for Rivera, Walker, Helton, Halladay, Schilling, Rolen, Martinez, Sheffield, and Mussina. In re to Kent and the Crime Dog, they both make his list of the 25 best not in, but I do not see that he said he definitely would or would not vote for them. I might of missed it. He did state that he would not vote for Vizquel.

Comments

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    Love bill james. Pretty much whatever room he is in, he is the smartest guy in it

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 6,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice to see some Dewey love from Bill.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wherever the imaginary line is...you will always have the 5 or 10 or fifty that did not quite get in and the same number that maybe should not have.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It really doesn't mean squat to me because the HOF doesn't mean squat to me until the ALLTIME HIT LEADER is put in where he should have been 5 years after retirement!!!!!!


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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:
    It really doesn't mean squat to me because the HOF doesn't mean squat to me until the ALLTIME HIT LEADER is put in where he should have been 5 years after retirement!!!!!!

    Rose belongs in the Hall of Shame not Hall of Fame.

    Shame on you Pete.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    It really doesn't mean squat to me because the HOF doesn't mean squat to me until the ALLTIME HIT LEADER is put in where he should have been 5 years after retirement!!!!!!

    Rose belongs in the Hall of Shame not Hall of Fame.

    Shame on you Pete.

    Gambling doesn't make my list of bad things athletes can do!!


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  • BrickBrick Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭✭

    Gambling is the #1 sin of a professional athlete.

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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    How about sex with minors? That's ok?

    And it wasn't just gambling, it was betting on (and prolly against) his own team that he managed.

    How much more of a s cumbag does he need to be, go OJ on someone?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    As Gomer Pyle used to say "Shame, shame, shame.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    How about sex with minors? That's ok?

    And it wasn't just gambling, it was betting on (and prolly against) his own team that he managed.

    How much more of a s cumbag does he need to be, go OJ on someone?

    I don't believe for a second that he ever fixed a game! Gambling is not a good thing, but it should not over ride what he did as a player.


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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    You are REALLY embarrassing yourself here! Read up on what a piece of chit the guy was, while I agree he had a great career as a player, NO WAY he should EVER sniff the HOF!

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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    You are REALLY embarrassing yourself here! Read up on what a piece of chit the guy was, while I agree he had a great career as a player, NO WAY he should EVER sniff the HOF!

    I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.


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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    You are REALLY embarrassing yourself here! Read up on what a piece of chit the guy was, while I agree he had a great career as a player, NO WAY he should EVER sniff the HOF!

    One more thing.....Ty Cobb was a much bigger POS person than Rose and he made the HOF first try with a huge %.! ;)


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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭✭

    back to the OP. If you havent already, you would probably enjoy Brian Kennys "Ahead of the curve" he has a chapter in there about Dewey and his HOF candidacy.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    You are REALLY embarrassing yourself here! Read up on what a piece of chit the guy was, while I agree he had a great career as a player, NO WAY he should EVER sniff the HOF!

    One more thing.....Ty Cobb was a much bigger POS person than Rose and he made the HOF first try with a huge %.! ;)

    You really need to read the report on Rose. Wait, on second thought you better not.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    You are REALLY embarrassing yourself here! Read up on what a piece of chit the guy was, while I agree he had a great career as a player, NO WAY he should EVER sniff the HOF!

    One more thing.....Ty Cobb was a much bigger POS person than Rose and he made the HOF first try with a huge %.! ;)

    Much of what was written about Cobb has turned out to be false.



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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 19,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    You are REALLY embarrassing yourself here! Read up on what a piece of chit the guy was, while I agree he had a great career as a player, NO WAY he should EVER sniff the HOF!

    One more thing.....Ty Cobb was a much bigger POS person than Rose and he made the HOF first try with a huge %.! ;)

    Much of what was written about Cobb has turned out to be false.

    Naturally.....of course. ;)


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  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    Someone please tell me how Grich and Evans deserve to be in the hall?

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    Just wondering. Has there ever been any cases when a athlete has taken a hall of fame of any level(PRO, COLLEGE, HIGH SCHOOL) to court for being snubbed??

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭

    @garnettstyle said:
    Someone please tell me how Grich and Evans deserve to be in the hall?

    Grich - 4-time Gold Glove winner, WAR of 71.1, OPS+ of 125

  • markj111markj111 Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭

    @garnettstyle said:
    Someone please tell me how Grich and Evans deserve to be in the hall?

    Read. It’s helpful.

  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018 2:57PM

    @markj111 said:

    @garnettstyle said:
    Someone please tell me how Grich and Evans deserve to be in the hall?

    Read. It’s helpful.

    I DID. And I don't think they are HOF material. So I disagree with Bill James.

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

  • MLBdaysMLBdays Posts: 599 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018 4:30PM

    Ted Simmons no problem his numbers are up there for catchers big time..... Bobby Grich? ..problem I dont care what his WAR # is..... ..... I also don't think Bill Mazeroski deserved the HOF .... not with his offense. Dwight Evans ... not exceptional enough IMO but very high caliber indeed. I'd put Garvey in before Evans, Grich and MAzeroski. Garvey gets my vote along with Simmons all day~ not on the 1st ballot mind you but eventually yes.

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭

    @MLBdays said:
    Ted Simmons no problem his numbers are up there for catchers big time..... Bobby Grich? ..

    I can't help but notice the logical disconnect here. The degree to which Simmons numbers are up there for catchers is almost identical to the degree to which Grich's numbers are up there for second basemen. Why do catchers get preference over second basemen for the HOF? In any event, Grich was a better hitter than Simmons, and was a Gold Glove second baseman while Simmons struggled to be an average catcher.

    I like Simmons, and I think he belongs in the HOF, but Grich was better and deserves it more.

    dallasactuary

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  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018 5:20PM

    @Brick said:
    Gambling is the #1 sin of a professional athlete.

    Absolutely. The pro sports sanctioning of sports wagering is baffling. Well out side of the billions it will reap. Top players may earn untouchable money, but the refs don't

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @MLBdays said:
    Ted Simmons no problem his numbers are up there for catchers big time..... Bobby Grich? ..

    I can't help but notice the logical disconnect here. The degree to which Simmons numbers are up there for catchers is almost identical to the degree to which Grich's numbers are up there for second basemen. Why do catchers get preference over second basemen for the HOF? In any event, Grich was a better hitter than Simmons, and was a Gold Glove second baseman while Simmons struggled to be an average catcher.

    I like Simmons, and I think he belongs in the HOF, but Grich was better and deserves it more.

    DA...in one of your mega threads, I recall that of the position players (HOF wise) you gave an edge to catchers and shortstops due to the difficulty to excel at those spots. Don't remember second basemen being included.

    Kindly clarify that point.

  • MLBdaysMLBdays Posts: 599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ted Simmons had 639 more base hits than Grich 2472 to 1833....thats HUGE... As a catcher he hit .285 a far more taxing position vs Grich .266...... Simmons drove in 1389 runs~ Grich drove in 864...... 525 more RBI's we are talking ..... I cant even relate to Grich with 1833 career hits getting into the HOF. Ted Simmons had more base hits (2472) than HOF'ers Johnny Bench(2048), Gary Carter(2092), Mike Piazza(2127), CArlton Fisk(2356) , Yogi Berra(2150) and Roy Campanella. Simmons' 1389 RBI's beat out all of those catchers except Yogi Berra (1430)....... Look up some stats ~ Simmons goes in all day and Sunday...Grich? oh well.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You realize that total base hits are just one part of the overall picture, though, when evaluating a player.

    Grich had a higher OBP% (.371 vs .348), higher OPS (.794 vs .785) and OPS+ (125 vs 118), all coming from a position (2B) from which offensive production was typically and routinely surpassed on average in terms of power and production than catcher.

    Grich was also a superior fielder vs Simmons, too.



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  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Simmons went to my High School. The baseball field is named after him. Good a qualification as any.

    :o

    He's gotta be about 70 now.

  • MLBdaysMLBdays Posts: 599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OBP ~ OPS ~ OPS + I don't delve into unless we are talking relative strength in career numbers..... I don't jump over the dollars to worry about the cents .... The disparity is vast and wide ~ Career hits and RBI''s are those dollars. 639 more hits with a higher career average..... Moreover, the difference in those very numbers you state are negligible. You'd like me to overturn 525 more career RBI's for an OPS of.794 vs. 785? REALLY? ~ not credible.

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 2,414 ✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:
    DA...in one of your mega threads, I recall that of the position players (HOF wise) you gave an edge to catchers and shortstops due to the difficulty to excel at those spots. Don't remember second basemen being included.

    Kindly clarify that point.

    First, thank you. It's gratifying to know that someone not only read, but remembers one of my mega threads.

    And not only that, you remember it correctly. Had Ted Simmons played OF or 1B, primarily, then there's no way he would deserve to be in the HOF. It is that "edge" that I wrote about that makes me think of him as a HOFer. And absent that edge, I would say that Grich was MUCH better than Simmons; as it is, they're close. I'm not going to bother responding to MLBdays recitation of career hits and RBI since I assume that you and most everyone else already sees how meaningless those stats are in this context. All it takes is a passing glance at the stats that matter to see that Grich was a borderline HOFer based on his hitting (regardless of position) alone; that he did that while playing Gold Glove caliber 2B (not just winning them, but actually deserving them) makes him an easy pick for the HOF for me.

    dallasactuary

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  • MLBdaysMLBdays Posts: 599 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018 3:39AM

    Even funnier Grote? Bobby Grich did walk more in his career than Simmons~ 1,087 BB but struck out 1278 times (-191 difference) ~ Ted Simmons walked 855 times but only struck out 684 times (+171 difference) . That tells you Ted Simmons with the longer career, and far more at bats PUT THE BALL IN PLAY MUCH~ MUCH MORE .... he was a far more gifted hitter than Grich ever was and struck out 594 fewer times in his career..............~ Grich was a damn good 2nd baseman but 4 gold gloves in 17 years isnt nearly dominating enough.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OBP ~ OPS ~ OPS + I don't delve into unless we are talking relative strength in career numbers

    If you are conducting an analysis of how good a hitter was, why would you focus on something as limited as base hits when there are much more comprehensive statistics at your disposal that paint a much clearer and detailed picture? OBP%, OBP and OBP+ are all better indicators of hitting ability than batting average.



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  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For the record, I am not saying Simmons was not a terrific and underrated player deserving of HOF consideration as a catcher (I would personally vote for him), but that Grich as a 2B is equally deserving of such consideration.



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  • Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭

    To be fair in the case of RBI....Ted Simmons did come to the plate with 1,657 more baserunners than Grich did. Simmons would still have more RBI than Grich if they had equal amount of baserunners...but it would be nothing like the 500 RBI gap difference you are suggesting.

  • I think Ted Simmons deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. I also hope that one day Charlie Finley makes the Hall.

  • garnettstylegarnettstyle Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭

    https://www.mlb.com/bluejays/video/parker-on-career-hall-of-fame/c-1869966483

    The cobra finished top 10 in the MVP voting 6 times. That's more than Baines, Garvey, and Dale Murphy.

    IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED

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