mantle vs the crowd
olb31
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It just blows me away that Mantle's cards sell for so much more than Aaron, Mays, Clemente, etc. I understand he is a Yankee Icon, but for example, a nice 1961 mantle psa 8 sells for upwards $2,800. I real nice mays sells for about $400. 7X higher. WOW. Mantle probably wasn't as good as Mays or Aaron or Clemente. He's probably not even one of the top 20 players of all-time. Just don't get it. Does the cost difference narrow or broaden over the next 10 years?
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It has been that way all along. I surmise that Mickey Mantle is a cultural icon. His being white has something to do with it, but also his boyish, fun-loving nature. Personally, I always thought that we'd see early 50s cards of players like Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Banks appreciate more rapidly, but there seems to be no lack of demand for high grade Mantles decade after decade, kind of like Babe Ruth.
Mantle was better than both Clemente and Aaron, a case can be made he was better (slightly) than Mays, and most likely a top 4 or 5 all time player. A truly transcendent athlete who missed time due to injuries. He does not have the career totals of Aaron because Hank played significantly longer.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Gap in price has never made sense to me but has actually widened with time. There is real and significant increased demand for his cards.
Combination of factors:
1) Yankees and championships that go along with that
2) White
3) Mays and Aaron played for teams that left their cities and soured original fan base
4) Mystique of the ‘52 Mantle lifts other cards
5) Was clear cut best player in AL where NL cities had Aaron, Mays, Banks and others to choose from
6) Legendary stories of tape measure home runs
I buy the field and generally stay away from Mantle cards as I would rather have more of the other guys than 1 Mantle.
I dont buy the racial component in modern times. If you have ever been to an event where Hank Aaron was present, he is absolutely beloved by the crowd. I have seen hank in person numerous times and he always gets the biggest cheers and the loudest applause. I dont think any other player active or a living retired player gets anywhere near the love Hank gets. Seeing this, I do not believe there is a cabal of racists keeping Mantle prices sky high. I think he played for the greatest franchise in baseball in the golden era. Too much nostalgia for the other players to overcome.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
if it was about race, why do Jordan and Lebron own the basketball hobby and not Larry Bird?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
While I do not think there is a cabal of current racists - I think the 50’s were a different time and in his era Mantle’s mystique was helped by white sportswriters working in the lens of their time. The legend of the tape measure shots were written about glowingly when there was no TV and only the written word, radio or an actual trip to the ballpark to see them play. Without highlights on TV people read about the players that were covered. Robinson did not break the color barrier until ‘47 and there were still some people that did not like the fact that baseball was integrated in the 50s. Jordan proves that collectors will pay for legends regardless of skin color. But legends were made in their own time.
while it is true that legends are made in their own time, I would say the boomers who watched mantle are no longer the majority of the ones currently paying record breaking prices for Mantle cards as most are now living in retirement and fixed income. todays buyers would be 30-40-50 somethings who never actually saw mantle play and thus did not have to wade through the depths of the "white sportswriters working in the lense of their time" I think they are paying for the best player on the best team. Had Mays been more friendly and outgoing, the conversation may have been different.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If you look at my list best player on best team is essentially first. Played for Yankees and the championships that go with it. Race is one of many factors that account for the price difference but it is a factor.
I do believe if Mantle had served during the Korean War it would have been written about all the time what his numbers would have been had he not served his county. I bet many on here do not even realize Mays would have hit 700 home runs had he not missed most of ‘52 and all of ‘53 serving his country. His first year back ‘54 he hit 41 home runs.
Mantle was clearly better than Aaron and Clemente. His peak was higher than that of Mays. Willie was clearly better after 64, and was less injury prone.
I agree... Mantle was the best player in the golden age of Baseball and Baseball Cards (50’s)
Mantle is the guy you want to have a beer with and Ruth as well. Complete mystique and imagine the stories. I love Aaron and Mays, and would love to meet, however the mystique is just not there. Jordan has the mystique as well. I don’t know it’s just a feeling. Brady, Montana, who else has that level???
Source baseball reference:
7 year peak WAR (standard measure they use to compare Players peaks in determining if a player should be in the HOF):
Mays - 73.7
Mantle - 64.8
I believe Mantle and Mays are very close to who was the best player of their generation and an argument can be made for either. There are many reasons Mantle’s demand far outweighs Mays and I believe the price discrepancy will remain for those reasons. Both were as they say now “generational talents”.
Interesting thoughts on this - I began watching baseball in the early 70’s, so it is difficult for me to assess the comparisons. I have discussed with my father, a huge Red Sox/Baseball fan. He indicated all (Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Banks) we’re totally awesome, but he was surprised by the difference between Mantle and the rest. He believes Mantle had the most talent and would have more records had he stayed healthy. Overall, he feels Willie Mays was the best all around player he ever saw.
It's Mantle and everybody else!
aconte
Saying that Mantle was a better all-around player than Mays is just crazytalk... Yes, Mays played several years more than Mantle did, but longevity is one of the parameters of greatness.
And, let's not forget that Mays missed almost two full seasons due to military service... And, those two seasons were sandwiched between a ROY and an MVP... And, Mays won 12 straight Gold Gloves... Saying that Mantle was an average fielder is a tremendous complement to him.
Mays was a true 5-tool player... Mantle had 4 tools, at most.
DesertIceSports.Com
Nothing to do with being white. Clemente and Killebrew were rookies the same year and Clemente's cards are worth much more than Harmon's.
Let's try not to bring race in EVERYWHERE!
Thank you.
I think something else that factors into his higher prices that hasn't been discussed is due to the fact that he died relatively young whereas Mays, and Aaron are still living from that same era and Banks just passed recently. It adds another layer to the provenance that is Mickey Mantle. The 30/40 year olds that are paying big money in the card market today, never saw him play, and were mere kids when he died.
Mantle was a prodigy. He easily had 5 tools as a kid. That was blunted by a Yankee Stadium sprinkler head and then by his alcoholism. It’s mind numbing he did what he was able to do given his obvious flaws. It’s a shame really .... he had the greatest raw power and ability since his predecessor Ruth...
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
A lot of factors go into Mantle’s popularity in the card and memorabilia market. Played in the largest market (NYC) for the best baseball team, but was from the Midwest so he appealed to both the big city and small town America. Won numerous World Series as well as holds records for most WS home runs, RBI...., and fans and collectors love players who produce on the biggest stage. Look at the Namath, Montana, and Bradshaw. Played during an era where baseball was being shown to the masses over a new medium (TV) so people were able to see him in great numbers. Plus he was stronger and faster than anyone in the game and had boyish good looks women wanted to be with him and men wanted to be him. Does not mean he was the greatest player of all time stat wise, but could hit a ball farther than any human then or since. As the saying goes - chicks dig the long ball 😉
Switch hitting not considered a tool/bonus?
"Switch hitting not considered a tool/bonus?"
Technically, no; switch-hitting isn't one of the 5 tools... The 5 Tools are: 1. hitting for average; 2. hitting for power; 3. baserunning skills and speed; 4. throwing ability and 5. fielding ability
Switch-hitting gave Mantle an advantage against righties (being able to hit lefty)... Mays put up his numbers against righties from the right side.
Mantle also had the advantage of playing on great teams his entire career and having protection in the lineup more so than Mays did.
Mantle had power that Mays could only dream about, and people flocked to games to see what Mantle would do next, but Mays was the better all-around player... In today's game, it's like comparing Aaron Judge to Mike Trout.
DesertIceSports.Com
Mantle is a mythical figure to many of a certain generation. Google "Mantle home to first" and you'll find folks arguing most assuredly that he ran a 3.1 from the lefty box, which would be the fastest of all time ... faster than Ichiro, Vince Coleman, you name it. Rationally, it’s hard to believe, but it makes a great story.
Card values are a byproduct of the myth. And then the values themselves feed the myth even more.
I’m not saying Micks talents aren’t HoF worthy or anything else, he’s just achieved a level in the pantheon that most others have not.
"Card values are a byproduct of the myth. And then the values themselves feed the myth even more."
My favorite is the idea that, when Mantle hit the homer off the roof facade at Yankee Stadium, the ball was still going up when it hit... There are people who actually believe this.
DesertIceSports.Com
Mays much better. Mantle more popular.
Aaron was better than both.
I agree. Bringing race into EVERYTHING gets very tiresome, not to mention it is patently wrong. Koufax's rookie was in 55 as well, Clemente sells for far more than him as well. As much as people want to try and drag it in, race is not an issue here.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Lol. How so? Longevity?
Clemente’s rookie is a high number while Killebrew and Koufax are not. There are twice as many of Koufax or Killebrew rookies in 8 or higher than there are Clemente.
Thought I said as a hitter, but didn't.
Aaron was a better hitter than both
Pele, Ali, Howe, Gretzky, Orr, Messi, to name a few, though the list could have a lot more.
I do think Clemente would be higher than the other ‘55 rookies if they were all in the same series. His untimely death while doing humanitarian work transends baseball.
You say .298 average like that’s a bad thing. What was his ops+? It was 7th all time. Remember he played throughout the low offense 60s.
Yup, The decade that the mound was hacked in size because Pitchers were the dominant force.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I just read the first few posts. Sorry if these points were already mentioned. My take on it, not necessarily in order of importance.
I'll stop at 7 points.
So in conclusion, he was overall one helluva baseball player and almost every kid playing baseball from that era fantasized about being like Mickey Mantle, the star, the fame, the catchy name, the fact that he was a winner, and also making pretty good money for that time.
BTW - the kids from that era, a number of them now have a lot of money, and some of them don't mind spending a lot of money for Mickey Mantle baseball cards.
I would rather have Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Williams
and Koufax. I feel their cards are undervalued compared
Mantle.
You bring up another factor - pitchers are far undervalued compared with every day players. Randy Johnson, considered one of the 25 best of all time - Rookies, 1989 Upper Deck PSA 10 $30, 1989 Upper Deck Griffey Jr. PSA 10 $500+. Maddux is also in top 25 and in the top two fielding his position (Kaat & Maddux), is very undervalued in my opinion.
Mantle will always be the King of cards and nothing will ever change that.
His iconic status is the product of myriad factors, from all the world series homers to his peak performance, from the stage he played on to his sheer look and even his name. From his 1961 chase of The Babe to his tape measure shots. The time he came along also was a factor in the perfect storm that created the card demand and prices we see to this day.
So many guys who never even saw him play grew up revering his cards. Bottom line, some men have “it,” a star quality. Charisma. And Mickey Mantle had it in spades.
Mere counting stats are a woefully reductive and specious prism through which to view any player. That said, for anyone who likes peak performance, Mantle at his best can tangle with or beat any of his peers.
Personally, whenever I encounter hobby bile toward Mantle cards or their status, it reminds me of a dog barking at a flying bird. I feel like I never see Mantle collectors take pot shots at other players, but now and then the reverse pops up.
U smoking crack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Larry Bird had the personality of Big Bird
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
If anyone has a Beckett laying around from the 80's and 90's check and see if the Mantle 52 Topps was the most expensive card listed in the price guide.
I think it only went back to this set or a few years earlier so the Wagner wouldn't have been listed.
I am almost positive it was and if so it shouldn't come as any surprise it stayed that way.
Mantle cards, memorabilia, etc will continue to rise imo. Hoping that they drop so I can buy them up
but doubt that happens.
My dad told me stories of Mantle and collecting when I was a kid in the early 80's. My first $100 I made I spent on a Mantle card when I was 11.
I have some $ now. I buy Mantle. I will continue to buy Mantle... Mostly non-base at the moment until my ship comes in!
Ha...good catch. To make the image smaller i just did a screen grab. ACDsee software puts a stupid square around faces for photo recognition
Fixed now with an edit.
how so? In what universe were Clemente and Aaron better than Mantle? counting stats? If you want to make a statistical case, the floor is yours. A hint though, it will be very difficult for you to prevail using statistics. unless you are one who likes compiled counting stats. Mays is much closer. He was not the offensive force Mantle was. Fielding statistics are vague at best, though the majority see Mays as a superior fielder. How much superior is probably not a number that can be derived with much certainty. It seems you just want to up your post count though.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree with your factors and believe that Mantle prices will further increase over the crowd. My thinking is that as we age, people will gradually forget about many of these players (Clemente, Mays, etc....), but Mantle will be the name that is still prominent.
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But the race conversation is not about personality, it is about the popularity of players due to their skin tone. dont muddy the waters. If this was truly about race, why are Jim brown, Walter payton, Barry sanders and Emmitt Smith's cards so much more widely collected than Red Grange, Jim Taylor, John Riggins and Larry Csonka? Grange was the Babe Ruth of his time. Why is Jerry Rice so much more collectable than Don Hutson even though Hutson has an argument as the best wide receiver of all time? Why is Jackie Robinson more collected than Duke Snider? again, the Jordan vs. Bird conundrum.
If there truly is a group of "racist" sports card collectors that are Running up the market on Mantle cards, why doesnt that extend to other players and other sports? I would be very surprised to hear that racism is only applied to Mickey Mantle. actually, if that is the standard, wouldnt that mean mantle was a better more popular player? not a better, more popular, white player.
Look, Ted Williams was a greater offensive force than Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente and any of the other post war players. Clemente outsells him. Aaron outsells him. He even has the romantic stories of the triple crowns, last .400 season, fighter pilot in two wars. He was John Wayne wearing a wool baseball uniform. If there was any player you would think this "racist cabal" of card collectors would grab onto, it would be teddy ballgame, but it is not so.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
RBI and BA are two very poor metrics to base a player evaluation on.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The OP question was Mantle vs the field. If you look at ‘61 Topps which he mentioned - Mantle in PSA 8 sells for about $2,200
Mantle $2,200
Other HOF in PSA 8 in the same year of which you can buy the whole list for the same price:
Aaron $525
Mays $400
Musial $150
Yaz 2nd year $275
Clemente $360
Koufax $310
Banks $120
I choose the field. Working on a ‘61, ‘68 and ‘55 Bowman HOF set and for all three still need the Mantle. I will feel like I am way overpaying when I buy those someday. The ‘55 Bowman will by be the most expensive card in my collection if I ever pull the trigger and I will not enjoy it as much as many other cards I have. The premium is real, will always be there gets bigger over time but to some of us just seems extreme. Would go for a lot more years’ than those three if the Mantle premium did not exist.
In ‘68 Mantle is way more than the Bench rookie. - that just does not add up for me.
Mantle is a great player but to me unlike Ruth he was not head and shoulders above his peers. Mays was right there with him.