question for vam experts who deal with morgan dollars

speedemon

i have come across an unattributed 1921 pitted die reverse in pcgs ms66 which happens to be a 3f4. pcgs has only graded 5 or 6 pitted die reverses in that high of grade and don't think theres another 3f4 in that group. my question is how do i go about placing a value on something when there are no prior sales

AUandAG

Definitely a market for the WOW dollars. First off get it graded and attributed on the slab by PCGS or NGC. Then once that is done you can begin your research. VAM 3Fx can be searched and solds can be found.
good luck,
bob

Hallco

Will PCGS attribute this Vam on the holder?

speedemon

from what i can gather they just lump them all together as a hot 50 pitted die reverse on the label.

Hallco

@speedemon said:
from what i can gather they just lump them all together as a hot 50 pitted die reverse on the label.

Right...and that doesn't give the details of an R-7 "WOW". Send it to VSS!

https://www.varslab.com/vamseal.html

Hallco

Also, post pictures!

speedemon

would be nice if they did put the 3f4 on the label once its sent in but guess they have their reason

speedemon

thanks for clueing me in to the vamseal site hallco. once i get it attributed with pcgs new label then ill send it to them. ill try to get a pic on here later on as i suck at taking them and my son knows whats up with taking one. im lucky to be able to use a comp.lol. im so old school. he tries to tell me its not 1904 still

DennisH

As the owner of the most complete 1921-P Morgan date set on the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors Registry (I have 64% of the 430 different coins currently needed for the set, although more discoveries are currently waiting to be added), I'd like to make some comments:

1. PCGS identifies just two 1921-P coins by VAM number: 40A and 41A. That's it. All of the other pitted reverse VAMs, of which there are several, are lumped together under the "pitted reverse" heading.
2. The majority of the PCGS coins that I have seen labeled as 41A are actually 41B.
3. Any 1921-P in MS66 – regardless of the VAM – is a tough sell, because there are so many MS-65s that can be had for about 1/4 of the MS66 cost. Or MS64s for 1/8 the cost. And 1921-P is a date that is not held in high regard by much of the numismatic world.
4. Virtually no one collects 1921-Ps by VAM number, so demand for a Pitted Reverse in MS66 (regardless of which individual VAM it is) will essentially be limited to PCGS registry Set collectors who are doing either the Top 100 plus Hot 50 Set and/or the King Kong huge Super Set AND are willing to pony up for a 66.
5. Yes, Pitted Reverses in MS66 are quite scarce; I have not seen an attributed for sale on eBay or in a major auction in the 12 years I have been watching.
6. VAM 3F4 is a fun coin; it has a lot going on. But they are out there in lower Mint State grades for sure. And, personally, I regard the R7 rating as a joke.

As for the value of your coin, in my opinion it fundamentally boils down to how much lustre and eye appeal your coin has as an MS66, not as a 3F4. I would be surprised if it would sell for more than $100 over Greysheet.

Hallco

Great insight @DennisH . Do you think the Vam rarity scale will ever be updated?

speedemon

thank you DennisH for taking the time to share your response and knowledge on this subject as im basically clueless as to something like this. appreciate it

Tibor

430 different VAMs and just for one date.
I'm impressed.

messydesk

@Hallco said:
Great insight @DennisH . Do you think the Vam rarity scale will ever be updated?

The VAM rarity scale would be tough to update for a few reasons. The biggest is that there are thousands of VAMs for which the true rarity is unknown. Even for the 1878 8TF series, which comprises 41 die pair, it has taken many years of close study by many collectors to determine which are the rarest. Another problem is that if the rarity of one VAM is updated simply by changing the R number, you don't know which ones have been updated and which haven't. This is solvable by adding a second rarity number, but then it becomes confusing.

The best way to assess rarity is through the various population reports from grading services and the SSDC. This concept wasn't around when rarity scales came into use. These reports give a pretty good picture of relative rarity within a set, whether that set is 1878 8TF or the Top 100, and relative rarity is what is most interesting here.

More pressing than updating rarity scales is establishing a value guide, however, which is planned to be done within the SSDC registry, but is still a lot of work.

CascadeChris

@speedemon, I highly suggest joining the SSDC. The annual membership dues are modest and the wealth of information is invaluable for anyone seriously or even just casually interested in Morgans or Peace Dollars...

http://registry.ssdcvams.com/entry/

BlindedByEgo

This post needs pictures.

Hallco

@BlindedByEgo said:
This post needs pictures.

Here is the die crack in the neck of the 3F4 (picture courtesy of Vamworld)!

DennisH

@Hallco said:
Great insight @DennisH . Do you think the Vam rarity scale will ever be updated?

Thank you!

"Ever" is potentially a very long time, so I'd have to go with saying yes. R values for all VAMs could stand to be updated; some up, but many down. But who would do it? Are there enough VAM specialists for each date who have the experience of looking for all of the VAMs to really know what is hard and what isn't? That's a wild mess of arguing and disagreement waiting to happen.

As for 1921-P R ratings, I view them as a guess that was made at the time each individual VAM was discovered. IMO, as a whole, the current 1921-P rarity ratings cause far more confusion than they provide help. Primarily because of the perception that exists between R value and $ value. In reality there is usually no correlation at all. Auction prices for 1921-P VAMs are all over the board, and they can often be had for less than generic Greysheet Bid, because so few people care. And is there any Morgan date that still has as many B.U. rolls (and bags?) still out there?

Collecting graded M.S. 1921-Ps is cheap fun, but there is no denying there's also a lot of lunacy involved.