Options
Charles Haley is the GOAT LB, discuss ...
LarkinCollector
Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
LarkinCollector
Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
LarkinCollector
Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
LarkinCollector
Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
LarkinCollector
Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
I’d take Lawrence Taylor over him
Haley was a defensive lineman and just as good as Taylor. He got several of his "rings" playing for the Cowboys.
I mean talk about dumb luck, the guy played for the 49’ers and the Cowboys the 2 best teams of the 90’s. I always thought it was funny that him and Sanders both switched over to the other Super Bowl contender, there was 2 teams and they were hired guns.
I always thought he was a DE. he was a great player, but certainly not the greatest LB of all time. LT would be considered significantly better. Derrek Thomas was also a great LB
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Larkin has a great point, however...
Quantity of titles only applies to Brady's legion of followers for their sake of argument. Not to other players.
Oh please thats hardly the only reason why Brady is considered the best, gimme a break. Im still waiting to see if Larkin can actually debate that topic rather than post threads of players who he doesnt even know their main position they dominated in
He went to more Pro Bowls as LB than DE and his career was pretty evenly split between the two games-wise. You prefer DE since that's where he finished his career? Either way, he's not near the top of the GOAT list for either position unless you're only going by rings.
Is Brady the leader in any significant regular season statistical category? No. Rings is (currently) the only argument for him as GOAT. I'm not saying he's not great, but it's silly to anoint anyone still actively playing as GOAT.
Regular season stats? How about Wins and winning percentage? Does that not qualify for a regular Season stat?
Is Brady the leader in any significant category? Yeah, wins. And, among guys with more than 100 games in the NFL, winning %.
And his wins and winning percentage is over an 18 year period, you realize how many different sets of personnel he has had to adjust to and then re adjust again and again to over that span? How many Offensive coordinators has he had? It’s not just Josh McDaniels. I don’t think people really understand how insane 18 years in the NFL really is and to be a consistent winner?
Wins as QB in football are as meaningful as wins for pitchers in baseball, nearly absolutely useless in judging the value of an individual player in team sports.
Not to mention Brady owns almost every career passing category record in the playoffs. It makes no sense to point out regular season passing statistics but then ignore the same categories in the playoffs when the games are more important.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
“Eye Roll”. Your just spewing nonsense for your agenda.
What exactly is my agenda? There's more than one player on a team, so attributing wins/losses to a single player is asinine in team sports. He's been on a team that's consistently good during his time, as evidenced by backups performing nearly as well when he's been injured or suspended. He's a mostly consistent top-10 QBR guy, leading the league twice in the past dozen years. If he played in Indy/Cincy/KC, etc. he wouldn't have had the playoff opportunities and wouldn't be in the discussion for GOAT. He has benefited greatly from ownership/coaching and has taken advantage of the opportunities given.
And Montana didn’t benefit from his situation?? And your agenda is You probably just hate New England and Pats fans. It might be typical jealousy I don’t know but you clearly said he has a long way to go to be the GOAT, that is what you posted and it’s in the top 2 or 3 dumbest posts ever made here in CU sports talk. How about you tell me what more he has to do?
So let’s throw out passing stats, wins, Super Bowls, longevity, winning percentage. Anything else you want to get rid of before we continue this debate?
Derrick Thomas of the Chiefs? Great at pass rushing, but not much else. Not good against the run.
Not in the category of LT and the other greats.
Now Bobby Bell and Willie Lanier, two HOF greats for the Chiefs. Better than Derrick Thomas.
Mike Singletary !!!
Best OLB of all time #1 Lawrence Taylor, 2nd, I would go with Jack Ham with Derrick Thomas\DeMarcus Ware\Ted Hendricks closely behind. Just listing OLB
Haley and Taylor are not even comparable. Taylor is on a completely other level.
Regular season passing stats is the only accurate way to compare QBs of a given era, longevity is definitely part of the discussion. Wins/win percentage and Super Bowls are not QB stats, they are team accomplishments. QBR, while not a perfect measurement, is a pretty decent method for comparison.
Which QB do you draft knowing that in the future their top 5 seasons of QBR would be ... ?
QB1 QB2 QB3
88.5 87.4 83.4
79.1 81.3 83.0
78.3 80.9 74.8
76.2 79.6 70.6
76.1 76.5 70.4
Average of top 5 seasons
79.64 81.14 76.44
Regular season stats for a QB also has a TON to do with a surrounding cast, especially WR’s. How do you think a QB gets his rating? He gets it by having a solid offense around him
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25007908/bill-belichick-put-khalil-mack-lawrence-taylor-class?platform=amp
QBR is a made up stat by the nerds over at ESPN that was invented in the past 10 years. No other actual NFL related site uses QBR .
QB Rating or Passer rating is an actual real stat that has been used by the NFL for years.
Brady is 3rd all-time in Passer rating behind #1 Aaron Rodgers & #2 Russell Wilson.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
QBR at least attempts to account for situational aspects and is included in the QB stats on the site you just referenced. Any stat that shows Chad Pennington as a top-15 QB all-time and Romo as only 0.5 rate behind Brady is suspect at best and doesn't bolster the Brady case against even his peers. Is anyone convinced Aaron Rodgers is the GOAT?
Well no one is using just one stat alone to decide who should be GOAT so Rodgers ranked #1 in PR isn't the deciding factor. In my opinion Brady is GOAT but I take into consideration his entire body of work not just SB Rings.
As for QBR,its basically Passer Rating,Fourth Quarter Comebacks & Games Won(Win probability) all combined.
I'm actually typing out a new thread right now showing where all of the GOAT QBs rank in all of the major QB stat categories. I used Brady,Manning,Montana,Marino,Elway,Brees,Unitas,Fouts & Jim Kelly because these were the names used by everyone in the other thread.
I should have that thread posted tonight, this way we can actually see where each QB ranks all time in each category compared to the others while arguing with each other.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Brady has had the benefit of playing in the post expansion/realignment NFL that has been greatly in favor of the passing game. Pre expansion QBs didn't have the luxury of the same benefits the post expansion QBs have had, thus are probably not going to have padded or higher rankings.
Brady's playoff stats have been greatly aided by realignment and addition of playoff teams (wild cards). With more teams and games, of course he will have multiple/all playoff records. I would also go out and say that more often than not he has faced watered down playoff teams that would not have existed in the pre expansion NFL. Realignment came at a perfect time for Brady, it allowed the former AFC East Colts and Peyton Manning to change divisions, avoiding a 2 game divisional matchup yearly for virtually their entire careers. Who knows how team records and playoff seeding could have been affected by this.
Rule changes favoring the QBs have also aided Brady (yes Manning too). What could Dan Fouts and Dan Marino do with today's QB friendly rules?
Look, Brady is a great QB. The best who played the position? It isn't a slam dunk as most of his supporters claim. When you look at everything, not just 5 rings and some silly playoff stats, and think about how fortunate he has been playing in the current NFL, with an all time great coach that gave him a chance (and that too was luck as it took an near fatal hit on Bledsoe to get him on the field).
Montana was perfect in his Super Bowl appearances. That has to say a lot. He also was the main reason for his teams success, which Brady cannot say for the Super Bowl wins New England got early in his career. Those Patriot teams were known for their defense and balanced offense. Ty Law was huge against the Rams, Rodney Harrison was huge against the Eagles. Both could've easily been the MVP in those games, but went to Brady. Heck the Seattle game you could argue Malcom Butler was the true MVP, making the all time play in Super Bowl history.
The Tuck Rule and Deflategate certainly don't help his cause outside of New England whether you agree or not with either situation. It goes down in his NFL resume.
I could go deeper into the above but it would still never convince or have a consideration otherwise for a Brady supporter. Which is fine. Just try to enjoy the athlete you follow irregardless of where others view him on a stupid all time great ranking list ( a la Jordan vs LeBron).
Okay, when or how did it get in the general publics' perception that Derrick Thomas was one of the
best linebackers of all time? He blitzed the QB well, but again he didn't make many tackles.
To be a great linebacker, you have to make a lot of tackles! I actually couldn't find a list of most
tackles by a linebacker even on profootballreference.com, but I would wager that Derrick Thomas
is way, way, down the list before his name ever surfaces.
Again, two of the best the Chiefs have ever had were Bobby Bell and Willie Lanier, both better
all around LB's than Derrick Thomas.
And I'm guessing Ray Lewis' name would be top five in number of tackles per game,
if I were a betting man. Just a name nobody has mentioned, I realize nobody likes him but
c'mon this is a thread about greatest LB's of all time.
I can agree that Thomas was far better pass rushing than run defender, didn’t remember Bell/Lanier but after reading they were top notch.
For all the fair points made above I can dig up a ton of other fair points that would back up Brady and separate him from his peers> @Darin said:
That’s the thing. It’s NOT about the greatest LB of all time it’s a thread dedicated to Tom Brady not being the GOAT, I say he is but a bunch of geek stat crap says he is not