Bust Half Overton Book - Variety Help/Question

hchcoin

I have a question about an 1829 bust half that I think may be the O-109. I don't have the Overton book right now and was wondering if someone can tell me if the book lists the reverse dentil count? The 1829 has 104 Reverse dentils and I was wondering if any other 1829 variety has the same count on the reverse.

LoveMyLiberty

The Overton 3rd edition does not give dentil
counts for obv & rev.
There are 20 die marriages for 1829.
The O-113 rev has 103 dentils.
The O-108 rev has 104 dentils.
The O-109 marriage rev has 104 dentils.
The O-119 " rev has 105 dentils.
The O-107 " rev has 106 dentils.
The O-101 " rev has 108 dentils.
There may be more, I only counted these.

O-108 & O-109 use the same obv., but different
reverses. O-109 uses rev. F., only used by O-109.
It ,may help if you show an image of both sides of your coin.

hchcoin

Thank you

Treashunt

There are far easier ways to Overton the variety

astrorat

@Treashunt said:
There are far easier ways to Overton the variety

Amen! Dang ... who counts denticles?

hchcoin

LOL. I just want to be sure but I don't have the book in front of me and was wondering if the book had dentil counts like the quarter book.

lkeigwin

I have never counted denticles. I don't know anyone who uses that for attributing bust half dollars.

You can use @maibockaddict 's website, maibockaddict.com/capped-bust-half-dollars.shtml/

...or you can compare your coin to the 20-109 image on Coinfacts:
pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=39789

...or post images of both sides here.
Lance.

astrorat

The challenge with using denticles is so many CBHs have poorly struck denticles that as a 'first line,' relying on a denticle count would be harrowing. There are many other markers that would be easier to use that by the time a denticle count would be needed, the Overton variety could already be determined.

Then again ... a denticle count for all the die marriages would be an interesting resource. Super nerdy ... but interesting!

hchcoin

Nerdy

The way I use the dentils is that I copy a picture of the photo into Word and then mark a straight line through the I in Pluribus and the T in States to get started. This narrows down the varieties very quickly. Then, I extend the line into the dentils. I make another straight line and use it to count off the dentils going clockwise. When I get to various points on the bust half such as the end of the scroll or the period after the C, I mark down how many dentils it is from where I started. You would be amazed how easy it is to quickly eliminate varieties using this method. Maybe I should write a book. It's like using the hands on a clock to pick out major differences on the varieties.

Thanks for everyone's input. I did not post the pictures yet because I have not received the coin. It is a details coin so it may not appeal to many bust nuts but I enjoy identifying and buying them when I can find them at the right price regardless of the problems.

hchcoin

Here is an example using a coin that is not mine that I found on the internet to compare to that I cropped to show the method. Notice how I have two yellow lines. One at the top where I line up the T and the I and one at the dot at the C. I use this method because my old eyes tend to play tricks on me and I think I see something just because I want to. I also struggle sometimes with the descriptions in some of the bust coin reference books especially the old bust dime book. I think I need to buy the new one that Winston co-wrote.

hchcoin

@lkeigwin said:
I have never counted denticles. I don't know anyone who uses that for attributing bust half dollars.

You can use @maibockaddict 's website, maibockaddict.com/capped-bust-half-dollars.shtml/

...or you can compare your coin to the 20-109 image on Coinfacts:
pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=39789

...or post images of both sides here.
Lance.

Thanks Lance. That is where I started since I didn't have the book,

hchcoin

@astrorat said:
The challenge with using denticles is so many CBHs have poorly struck denticles that as a 'first line,' relying on a denticle count would be harrowing. There are many other markers that would be easier to use that by the time a denticle count would be needed, the Overton variety could already be determined.

Then again ... a denticle count for all the die marriages would be an interesting resource. Super nerdy ... but interesting!

What do you think of the method described above?

Honestly, I started doing this when I read an article describing how they identified a new rare variety. I can't remember but maybe I saw it in the JRCS journal or maybe Brad Karoleff (@BustDMs) talking with me about this once at a show. They used the edge reeding to determine the new variety. Then I starting thinking maybe I could use the dentils to help me identify varieties and I have been using it ever since when I have trouble with a coin.

Nysoto

Complete bust half dentil counts are found on the NNP in JRJ articles (Oct 1993, others for draped and capped, just search).

Dentil counts are not usually needed to attribute, but alignment is useful. The counts have a number of interesting research findings if a person wants to further understand the series from a die fabrication perspective.

The discovery of 1807 O.115, made in part by this forum, was proven as a new variety by the author of the 1807... dentil counts. The obverse die dentil count was different, so the coin was either a new variety, an alteration, or a fake. There were experienced attributors who did not believe it was a new variety when it was staring them in the face. Dentil counts proved it, the overlay was only added evidence to those who did not trust dentil counts.

The latest JRJ has a fascinating article on more detailed research of capped dentils 1807-1817 that identifies two distinct patterns - that could have only been done by the two engravers, Scot and Reich. The research indicates that Reich finished all obverse working dies during that period, and Scot finished most reverse working dies (I assumed exactly that in my book from other indications, without full evidence of dentil research).

Treashunt

@astrorat said:

@Treashunt said:
There are far easier ways to Overton the variety

Amen! Dang ... who counts denticles?

not me!
my eyes aren't that good

lkeigwin

I have no doubt counting denticles works and might be important with discoveries. But the tedium would drive me nuts.

Attribution should be fun, I think. It's a puzzle with one precise solution. Notice things unusual or quirky that stand out and find the match.

Along the way I invariably see things I might otherwise have missed.
Lance.

astrorat

@hchcoin said:
What do you think of the method described above?

If the method works for you and is reproducible, then great. I know of several collectors who first look at alignment of the points of stars 1, 7, and 13 with respect to the denticles. I use that method, but not very often.

I generally start with the reverse and use the alignment of the I below T, S below S, N below F, end of scroll below AM, and 5 below talons/fletching.

The obverse is trickier for me, but relative alignment of the stars is fairly handy, star 7 to curl/headband, and star 13 placement.

There are lots of ways to solve the puzzle!

habaraca

well since i can't count dentils, and don't know how to attribute the easiest for me is to read the PCGS label,,

They are never wrong..............................