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henk1409henk1409 Posts: 5 ✭
in Precious Metals

Who can identify the following marks on a 100 gramm Johnson Matthey bankers bar?
Its a .999 silver bar(tested by jeweller)

Answers

  • henk1409henk1409 Posts: 5 ✭


    This is the bar in question

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a JM fan site I believe. Just Google Johnson Matthew hallmarks.

    thefinn
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,238 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thefinn said:
    There is a JM fan site I believe. Just Google Johnson Matthew hallmarks.

    The allengelhard.com site has a J-M section.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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  • henk1409henk1409 Posts: 5 ✭

    Allengelhard is asked and did not know wat the marks mean.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Provident Metals is still selling these. Once inventory is sold, they cannot be replaced.

    https://www.providentmetals.com/100-gram-silver-bar-johnson-matthey-bankers-limited.html

    thefinn
  • henk1409henk1409 Posts: 5 ✭

    dont want to buy, want to know about the marks

  • KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thefinn said:
    Provident Metals is still selling these. Once inventory is sold, they cannot be replaced.

    https://www.providentmetals.com/100-gram-silver-bar-johnson-matthey-bankers-limited.html

    Discontinued Product is no longer available.

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭✭

    What was the answer?

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  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018 7:09PM

    If I had to guess...

    Johnson Matthey Bankers (JMB) were a subsidiary of the Johnson Matthey we all know from its bullion. I suspect these were premiums handed out to folks who made commercial loans or who were otherwise being favored by JMB. The bank was based in London, England. England has very strict laws about hallmarks being placed on silver objects. Because these items were less "bullion" and more objects of art, JMB may have decided to hallmark these pieces in order to keep on the right side of the hallmark laws.

    The hallmarks must contain these "compulsory" marks:
    1. Maker's mark
    2. The standard of silver fineness
    3. The assay office where its purity was tested and affirmed
    4. Date mark (optional)

    In this instance, the maker's mark may well be the "JM LTD". Or it could be the circle with the fancy "M"-looking shape.

    The standard of fineness is not often seen here in the US. It's Brittania silver, or .9584 purity. Interesting history behind Brittania silver. It was essentially required to keep British silversmiths from just melting and using all of the silver coins of the era.

    The assay office appears to be missing. That's a big no-no. Perhaps the bar was struck elsewhere, or perhaps it wasn't required for this particular piece. Still not sure about that one.

    And the final mark is the date mark. It appears to be an a script "F". That would correspond to 1980. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    There's a fascinating story behind JMB's meteoric rise and fall (and the irony of a metals company going broke overnight in the paper markets) you can read about it here:
    https://taxfreegold.co.uk/johnsonmattheybankers.html

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  • henk1409henk1409 Posts: 5 ✭

    but there is the problem, a jeweller / coinseller has tested the bar and says it .999 silver and not .9584

  • MeshMesh Posts: 86 ✭✭✭

    please provide a pic of the reverse

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @henk1409 said:
    but there is the problem, a jeweller / coinseller has tested the bar and says it .999 silver and not .9584

    You asked what the Hallmarks meant, and I gave you my best guess. I'm fairly certain the 9584 = Brittania Silver.

    As to why it says that? Maybe it is .999 pure and your dealer has the technology and experience to tell the ~ 3% +/- difference between the .999 and .958 (my Sigma has Brittania setting).

    Or maybe it is .999 pure, and JM denoted the Brittania purity to make sure the bar was well within the range allowed for Brittania instead of the higher .999 pure hurdle because they knew this wasn't an actual bullion piece. Underselling the purity rather than overselling it.

    Or maybe your dealer just read the front of the bar and assumed it was .999 pure.

    If you can, weigh the bar in grams with a digital scale. If it weighs anything above 100 grams (specifically 104.35 grams), then it seems logical that the bar itself is made of .9584 Brittania silver and, accounting for the very small amount of alloy metals, contains exactly 100 grams of .999 pure silver.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting bar, good luck !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss I've seen the Britannia hallmark used on .999 silver bars, The Engelhard "Hallmark Collection" bars have them.
    You're correct the mark is the minimum allowed but the bars are indeed 999.
    The newer hallmarking laws changed the marks, and now there is a 999 mark used for pure silver.

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