Those are real nice machines. Luckily I’m good friends with the owner of my LCS. Anytime I acquire something he lets me bring it in and he puts it on the Sigma. In-turn, I buy a good chunk of my PMs from him.
@GRANDAM said:
Anything inside the brackets is good,,,,, within the tolerance of .9999,,,,,,,,, outside the brackets is no-good.
Same type bar tested on my PMV, same results using the instrument's surface mounted probe. Note that when I used the large attachable prob my reading was more to the center. I use the probes for the larger stuff such as this bar. Three probe sizes available.
Those were pretty obvious fakes. They did not register on any of the .999 settings. That just happened to be the one we were on when I snapped the photos.
The thing that's a little hard to understand for people who see images but who have never used the Sigma is this:
It won't tell you what alloy you have. Rather, you have to ask it if it is a specific alloy, and it will tell you within a range of confidence if it is that alloy.
That's a subtle difference but an important one. You can't just plop a coin on it and have it say "That's 99.9% pure silver".
Compare that to the x-ray florescence devices that @asheland and others use, and the similar spectrometer that I referenced in that last metal porn supplemental I posted. With those devices, you don't have to ask anything. They tell you down to a tiny fraction of a % what an item is made of.
Here's an example of the Sigma:
Two coins:
A Mexican 20 Centavo from 1964 (made of bronze--about 70% copper and 30% tin)
A Mexican 8 reale from 1838 (90.3% pure silver, the balance likely copper).
The Sigma has several settings for 90% silver: Pre-1900, pre-1945, and 1960.
So I "ask" the machine if the 1964 bronze 20 centavo is pre-1945 90% silver...and it says "NO!" (the black mark is well outside of the confidence brackets.
Fair enough, that's perfect.
Now I "ask" the sigma if the 1838 8 reale is pre-1945 90%:
Whoa! The Sigma tells me that this too is a negative. It's outside of those brackets, too.
But wait! The designer of the Sigma recognized a slightly different signature for silver pieces made before 1900. So I reset the Sigma for this pre-1900 90% designation, and "ask" the device if that is what I have:
So that's how it works.
In my experience, it's pretty accurate. Very, even. But it's a tool like any other. You get better with it the more you use it.
For that 8 reale I showed above: My 40+ years of collecting tell me it's a good piece. The patina, the strike, the heft in my hand. Add a ring test, and call that maybe 80% confidence.
Now use digital calipers to determine if a piece is the right diameter and check that against the published diameter. Within a very small range, that might add another 5% confidence.
Now use a digital scale to tell you if a piece is the right weight. Within a gram +/- that adds another 5% confidence.
You'd be lying to yourself if you just used one of those tools to declare with 100% confidence that the piece is authentic.
But combined with your experience, and with other tools, you're up to 90% confidence the piece is real.
Now ask the Sigma. If it tells you the piece falls within the brackets--the parameters of what it feels is authentic--then you know it's not just the right look, the right weight, the right diameter, but even the correct alloy it's supposed to be.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the Verifier and have one question. Do you feel getting the 3 wand set up that includes the large bullion wand a must or is the 2 wand setup enough? It's a $85.00 difference from the ebay seller I'm looking to purchase from but if it's not really needed then why spend the extra money.
@thefinn said:
They are great, but they will call a pure copper bar as .999 fine silver.
I am not getting this reading on a copper bullet. Every setting I tried for silver was way out of the brackets.
This is all of the Silver settings and none show copper as silver.
@SONOMOSCA said:
I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the Verifier and have one question. Do you feel getting the 3 wand set up that includes the large bullion wand a must or is the 2 wand setup enough? It's a $85.00 difference from the ebay seller I'm looking to purchase from but if it's not really needed then why spend the extra money.
Yes, I would get all 3 wands,,,,, soon as you don't have the big one you will need it.
@thefinn said:
They are great, but they will call a pure copper bar as .999 fine silver.
Yes, I would get all 3 wands,,,,, soon as you don't have the big one you will need it.
I am not getting this reading on a copper bullet. Every setting I tried for silver was way out of the brackets.
Too small. As I said, a bar. I did it on a cast bar of approximate size of 100 oz. I called the company, and they mentioned it was one of the deficiencies of testing pure silver/copper, and that the Sigma Analytics PM Verifier was just, "one of many tests that should be used." You could also get the .999 fine gold Elemental bars in the cards to fail too, but that they did verify with the company that they were good.
The bullet would not trigger anything because its not large enough to cover the circle. No, it will not check jewelry like 10 14kt chains, not made for that, as well as no close setting for something of that shape and make. It will however come close enough to check like a cigarette case made of like 18Kt. I also use the wands to check lots of flat ware and stuff, works fairly well.
One side note: 2006 proof 1 oz American gold eagles often fall just outside the brackets, not sure why, but they do.
GRANDAM
Posts: 8,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Looks fairly pricey, what do they run?
I have one, bought it a couple years ago, think I paid $700+ !!!
I paid $730 with 10% eBay Bucks so $657 net.
Those are real nice machines. Luckily I’m good friends with the owner of my LCS. Anytime I acquire something he lets me bring it in and he puts it on the Sigma. In-turn, I buy a good chunk of my PMs from him.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
Why is the bar all the way to the right while the others are in the middle?
Anything inside the brackets is good,,,,, within the tolerance of .9999,,,,,,,,, outside the brackets is no-good.
Same type bar tested on my PMV, same results using the instrument's surface mounted probe. Note that when I used the large attachable prob my reading was more to the center. I use the probes for the larger stuff such as this bar. Three probe sizes available.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I just got the Sigma today and haven't tried the wands yet,
Still learning but I like it
That is so cool. Could it do a gold necklace?
Yes, I tried with the large wand and got the same results as derryb
They are great, but they will call a pure copper bar as .999 fine silver.
worth the money.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Not sure if it makes any difference but my first test of the 10 oz RCM Bar I had it set on 99.99% Silver. The bar was to the RH of center.
I just tried it on .9999 silver bullion with no wand and got the bar in the center of brackets.
They are handy, If it wasn't for having access to several different ones, I'd likely buy one also.
My YouTube Channel
What does it show on a Franklin Half, British Sovereign, Modern Gold Commem?
I knew it would happen.
anything between the brackets is good. Closer to the center the better.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
All metals don’t use the same settings.
There are settings for .9999, 99.99, 90% and I think sterling silver.
Also settings for all types of gold, platinum and palladium.
Plus a lot more I haven’t explored yet.
The machine pays for itself by preventing one bad purchase.
doesn't hurt to let your potential ebay buyers know that you use it to verify all PMs you sell.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
better yet just take a picture of the item you're selling when on the PMV and put it in the listing...
My local shop has one and I'm pretty much free to use it when needed. It is nice to know for sure...
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
what does it indicate when you set it to the correct setting of 99.9?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Those were pretty obvious fakes. They did not register on any of the .999 settings. That just happened to be the one we were on when I snapped the photos.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Can you put something odd on there to see what it says? Or a bar that’s silver plated with something else in the middle?
I love mine
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
The thing that's a little hard to understand for people who see images but who have never used the Sigma is this:
It won't tell you what alloy you have. Rather, you have to ask it if it is a specific alloy, and it will tell you within a range of confidence if it is that alloy.
That's a subtle difference but an important one. You can't just plop a coin on it and have it say "That's 99.9% pure silver".
Compare that to the x-ray florescence devices that @asheland and others use, and the similar spectrometer that I referenced in that last metal porn supplemental I posted. With those devices, you don't have to ask anything. They tell you down to a tiny fraction of a % what an item is made of.
Here's an example of the Sigma:
Two coins:
A Mexican 20 Centavo from 1964 (made of bronze--about 70% copper and 30% tin)
A Mexican 8 reale from 1838 (90.3% pure silver, the balance likely copper).
The Sigma has several settings for 90% silver: Pre-1900, pre-1945, and 1960.
So I "ask" the machine if the 1964 bronze 20 centavo is pre-1945 90% silver...and it says "NO!" (the black mark is well outside of the confidence brackets.
Fair enough, that's perfect.
Now I "ask" the sigma if the 1838 8 reale is pre-1945 90%:
Whoa! The Sigma tells me that this too is a negative. It's outside of those brackets, too.
But wait! The designer of the Sigma recognized a slightly different signature for silver pieces made before 1900. So I reset the Sigma for this pre-1900 90% designation, and "ask" the device if that is what I have:
So that's how it works.
In my experience, it's pretty accurate. Very, even. But it's a tool like any other. You get better with it the more you use it.
For that 8 reale I showed above: My 40+ years of collecting tell me it's a good piece. The patina, the strike, the heft in my hand. Add a ring test, and call that maybe 80% confidence.
Now use digital calipers to determine if a piece is the right diameter and check that against the published diameter. Within a very small range, that might add another 5% confidence.
Now use a digital scale to tell you if a piece is the right weight. Within a gram +/- that adds another 5% confidence.
You'd be lying to yourself if you just used one of those tools to declare with 100% confidence that the piece is authentic.
But combined with your experience, and with other tools, you're up to 90% confidence the piece is real.
Now ask the Sigma. If it tells you the piece falls within the brackets--the parameters of what it feels is authentic--then you know it's not just the right look, the right weight, the right diameter, but even the correct alloy it's supposed to be.
--Severian the Lame
Precious Metal Verifier.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the Verifier and have one question. Do you feel getting the 3 wand set up that includes the large bullion wand a must or is the 2 wand setup enough? It's a $85.00 difference from the ebay seller I'm looking to purchase from but if it's not really needed then why spend the extra money.
I am not getting this reading on a copper bullet. Every setting I tried for silver was way out of the brackets.
This is all of the Silver settings and none show copper as silver.
Yes, I would get all 3 wands,,,,, soon as you don't have the big one you will need it.
Too small. As I said, a bar. I did it on a cast bar of approximate size of 100 oz. I called the company, and they mentioned it was one of the deficiencies of testing pure silver/copper, and that the Sigma Analytics PM Verifier was just, "one of many tests that should be used." You could also get the .999 fine gold Elemental bars in the cards to fail too, but that they did verify with the company that they were good.
Well I have a larger copper bar somewhere,,,,, I'll try it when I find it. Can't remember where I hid the thing.
I believe one is diamagnetic and the other is paramagnetic
The wands are useful for small coins like the 1/10 eagles, etc.
My YouTube Channel
Here is one of the (3) 5 oz .999 Silver Bars from Gov.Mint purchased with the $50 off coupon.
They weight good also.
The bullet would not trigger anything because its not large enough to cover the circle. No, it will not check jewelry like 10 14kt chains, not made for that, as well as no close setting for something of that shape and make. It will however come close enough to check like a cigarette case made of like 18Kt. I also use the wands to check lots of flat ware and stuff, works fairly well.
One side note: 2006 proof 1 oz American gold eagles often fall just outside the brackets, not sure why, but they do.