Sell Coins that Collectors Want which are Accurately Described with Excellent photography.
you do this and your returns will be close to ZERO!
I do not accept returns, but of course, ebay forces you to now, and that ok, as my return rate is less than 1% which is probably better than retail. Some people (customers) are impossible to please, but that is human nature and you have to accept that fact.
IMO, the problem is definitely Feebay ( and the odd crook).
They drown everyone, especially sellers, in convoluted rules and regulations. However, they do not have competent employees to deal with any possible issues in a proper and efficient way. i do not believe that any of Ebays standard answers are written by anyone who knows what they are in fact writing about.
Ebay COULD put a stop to all the BS going on in seconds. All they have to do is eliminating their unreasonable rules and come up with solid rules and requirements.... AND, enforce these to the letter.
This example picked at random: enforce a minimum of 2 images posted of the item being sold.
these images must be a minimum of a certain High Definition size, reduced, so they can be enlarged to a minimum blown up size so even minute details can bee seen. Hence eliminating any:"I did not see that scratch" claims. AND every buyer, by bidding, must acknowledge that the images and descriptions have been seen and understood.
it would eliminate most "not as described" claims.
By bidding the buyer also states that the bidder is acting in good faith when bidding. I believe that industry has certain federal "good faith laws".
But all this and more is NOT in Feebays monetary interest.
Amongst other advantages in their favor, presently they get to keep any "money in limbo "escrow" until the matter is solved. It is used as quasi free operating capital, guaranteed by an insurance / bond company. otherwise they could not legally touch / or use escrow money.
I do not know what the laws are in the USA with respect to a "right to return items" for made up reasons.
however, if I, or most normal and honest buyers, buy an item and I have a solid reason to complain, I should have to do this within 7 days and not more. ( there may be verifiable circumstances allowing for exceptions.
another contention is Global shipping which in many cases does simply NOT make sense. But... I will not "go there" today.
Sorry guys if my rant got a bit too long.
@jmlanzaf said:
This will only benefit Ebay. Would Amy of you buy coins sight unseen that have absolutely NO returns allowed? How many of you have returned brand new Mint products for a tiny defect? How many of you have ever returned ANYTHING to a store?
You are looking at this as amateur sellers only. And, humbly, if that's your attitude Ebay DOESN'T want you, nor does Amazon, nor does any coin BUYER. Not scam buyers, mind you, but legitimate buyers who want to feel they have some protection
What if you are selling MS63 Saints for a bit over spot. Want to hang those coins out for a month?
You have no choice. That's the point. The buyer can ALWAYS SNAD or do a charge back. That's the point.
IT IS NOT AN EBAY PROBLEM, it's a 21st century commerce problem. Back in the old days, when I handed you $1300 cash and you handed me a MS63 Saint, it was HARD for you to get your money back. You had to either rely on my kindness or sue me, which is difficult. That is NOT the modern world. Almost no one uses cash for anything. Chargebacks exist on credit cards and people LOVE the security of it. Buy a vacuum cleaner from Walmart.com It doesn't work, send it back for free! Buy a dress, it doesn't fit, send it back for free. Buy a dress, want to send it back, seller says they don't accept returns, file a chargeback. IT IS NOT AN EBAY PROBLEM.
Free 30 day returns on eBay are simply the STANDARD for 21st century commerce. And anyone with a 9th grade education and a credit card knows they essentially have up to 180 days in return privileges via the chargeback.
I have considered everything I sell on the internet - IN ANY VENUE - to have at least 90 day return privileges ever since PayPal arose. In the early days (late 90s), most of my payments came via money orders. Those it was easy to have strict return policies. Ever since virtually all payments were by PayPal/credit card, unless you are "special", you have to know that you had 90 day returns thrust upon you by the PAYMENT METHOD.
This example picked at random: enforce a minimum of 2 images posted of the item being sold.
these images must be a minimum of a certain High Definition size, reduced, so they can be enlarged to a minimum blown up size so even minute details can bee seen. Hence eliminating any:"I did not see that scratch" claims. AND every buyer, by bidding, must acknowledge that the images and descriptions have been seen and understood.
it would eliminate most "not as described" claims.
By bidding the buyer also states that the bidder is acting in good faith when bidding. I believe that industry has certain federal "good faith laws".
I disagree as buying from BAD photos is a very good business on ebay.
Plus, most people have no idea (the skill required) of how to take a good picture of a coin.
Everything I sell on BST has 90 day return privileges. Why? Because I get paid via PayPal. Why do I get paid via PayPal? Because I want to give my buyers, who don't know me, confidence in the transaction. If I saw a coin on BST advertised with money order only from someone I don't know, I wouldn't buy it. So I don't expect anyone else to. PayPal comes with up to 180 days chargeback privileges depending on the method of funding. THAT IS THE REALITY OF 21ST CENTURY COMMERCE.
You wanna be a dealer...that's the cost of doing business.
[Anyone want to resurrect the Hunter Smith thread?]
I do not know what the laws are in the USA with respect to a "right to return items" for made up reasons.
however, if I, or most normal and honest buyers, buy an item and I have a solid reason to complain, I should have to do this within 7 days and not more. ( there may be verifiable circumstances allowing for exceptions.
another contention is Global shipping which in many cases does simply NOT make sense. But... I will not "go there" today.
Sorry guys if my rant got a bit too long.
You are incorrect, not just in the USA but globally.
The "right to return" is really the "right to refund" and that is determined NOT by the sales venue in most cases but by the payment method. If you charge anything, anywhere in the world, you essentially have 90 to 180 day return/refund privileges because of the terms of the credit card.
I disagree as buying from BAD photos is a very good business on ebay.
Plus, most people have no idea (the skill required) of how to take a good picture of a coin.
This is true. But there are also people that have tremendous skill in taking coin pictures that HIDE THE FLAWS.
It is somewhat shocking to me that a bunch of coin collectors are arguing against return privileges.
I wish I had time to pull up all the threads where someone said: just got this coin, what do you think of this...[spot, contact mark, rim nick...]? And invariably, 90% of the responses are: return it!
And, if someone bought a coin, submitted it and it came back "questionable color" or "tooled", how many people would WANT RETURN PRIVILEGES?
And I bet just about everyone on this board has either returned (or had their wife do it) a Christmas gift that had been bought a month or more before because it was the wrong color, or the wrong size, or the wrong style.
Funny how people's perspective changes when they are on the other side of the counter.
And I bet just about everyone on this board has either returned (or had their wife do it) a Christmas gift that had been bought a month or more before because it was the wrong color, or the wrong size, or the wrong style.
You are probably correct.
However, IMO a return policy is a privilege granted under the "good faith" transaction.
If someone has a solid ground for returning a coin, then that is ok. However, Feebay does absolutely nothing to stop frivolous returns with very questionable reasons. As said before, all they have to do is change their policy and ENFORCE it. As long as a seller can not give negative feedback, things will not change!
@ms70 said:
What if enough members complained to the ANA? Would they be willing to exert any influence of fairness upon eBay or would that be a worthless endeavor?
I was invited to meet with some eBay reps at the ANA show next week. Whatever their plans are to tell me about the features they have to get me to sell more, my sole focus is to discuss how their policies are killing coin sellers and point out some of the customer-unfriendly things I've done just to work within the policies.
@Wabbit2313 said:
If you don't offer returns, they will just say not as described. You will pay the shipping both ways and get a big black mark!
And get hit with a 4% fee surcharge. So that is their scam to force returns.
well, if they file not as described, can I just agree and not fight. That way no big black mark. The worst is to pay the return fee. In my experience even if you take return most will file not as described anyway. They don't contact you to return it (only few will do that).
I get about 4 returns a year. In a decade only once was a not as described complaint filed. If you don't have a return policy though the game changes.
I've had plenty of SNADs opened--the vast majority with no legitimacy (the legitimate ones being an honest error on my part where I'd cover the full cost of the return even without a SNAD being opened)--even though I've always had a return policy. Many buyers use it as a way to turn a return where they're out shipping costs into a totally free return.
This is really not true. The ability to file chargebacks through PayPal or your credit card company gave you 180 day return privileges at all times. This is true on your private website as well. eBay is the LEAST of your problems at 30 days.
You can only do a limited number of charge backs on your credit card before your credit card company tells you to pound sand. I'm not convinced that eBay would take a similar approach.
They really don't need to. I have been offering free returns for 3 months now, ever since they started transitioning to that policy. i have seen no uptick in returns. I have had 3 returns in 3 months which is 1 more than usual. However, 2 of the 3 returns were jewelry not coins. I just had the 1st coin return today, ironically.
This is all just anti-eBay paranoia.
Funny that no one is complaining that PayPal or their CC company has a 90 to 180 day window. Do you think that's because abuse is not as widespread as you think it will be?
It's true that the ultimate authority is PP/credit card policy. The difference is that's not advertised. I've had buyers open returns at the end of the window (14 days for a long time until that was deemed too short), then wait another week to ship, and by the time it gets to me, it's 30 days. I've had buyers ask to return items well past the return policy expiration just because. If someone really wants to be shady, yes, they have the trump card with their payment method. But if they're just clueless or lazy to some degree and want to return an item late, giving them the option to do so means they can take you up on it. For that reason I won't give them that option.
@ms70 said:
What if enough members complained to the ANA? Would they be willing to exert any influence of fairness upon eBay or would that be a worthless endeavor?
So your thesis is that the ANA should help dealers by fighting a policy that protects buyers/collectors?
@Paradisefound said:
Is this mean I can send raws for express grading come full circle if ....... they turn up to be fakes?
Any coins that are fakes can be returned. Bigger problem is, if the buyer sends a coin out for grading, does not like the results and sends it back.
Big difference. My gripe is the potential for abuse not legitimate issues with a seller. Selling a counterfeit and representing it as genuine is grounds for return.
I'd be more worried about the potential for abuse from sellers who sell you a coin with pictures that hide a defect and then refuse a return.
Oh wait, YOU would just SNAD then yourself, wouldn't you?
Duh. Again, my problem is not with legitimate cases but for frivolous SNAD claims. There are many buyers that will file a SNAD just to avoid paying postage or for other abusive reasons. The design is poorly structured and is very one sided IMHO.
@jmlanzaf said:
This will only benefit Ebay. Would Amy of you buy coins sight unseen that have absolutely NO returns allowed? How many of you have returned brand new Mint products for a tiny defect? How many of you have ever returned ANYTHING to a store?
You are looking at this as amateur sellers only. And, humbly, if that's your attitude Ebay DOESN'T want you, nor does Amazon, nor does any coin BUYER. Not scam buyers, mind you, but legitimate buyers who want to feel they have some protection
What if you are selling MS63 Saints for a bit over spot. Want to hang those coins out for a month?
You better cross your fingers and hope that gold spot prices don't fall within 30 days after you sell generic gold. This is exactly what I am griping about. What if you are selling thousands of dollars of generic gold? Can you afford to tie up your inventory money for 30 days?
@jmlanzaf said:
This will only benefit Ebay. Would Amy of you buy coins sight unseen that have absolutely NO returns allowed? How many of you have returned brand new Mint products for a tiny defect? How many of you have ever returned ANYTHING to a store?
You are looking at this as amateur sellers only. And, humbly, if that's your attitude Ebay DOESN'T want you, nor does Amazon, nor does any coin BUYER. Not scam buyers, mind you, but legitimate buyers who want to feel they have some protection
What if you are selling MS63 Saints for a bit over spot. Want to hang those coins out for a month?
You better cross your fingers and hope that gold spot prices don't fall within 30 days after you sell generic gold. This is exactly what I am griping about. What if you are selling thousands of dollars of generic gold? Can you afford to tie up your inventory money for 30 days?
We are on the same page. Common gold has mostly become a moot point as Ebay fees have made melting the yellow metal a more economical option. One could lose their shirt (and trousers) in a sharp decline on the returns alone.
Sell Coins that Collectors Want which are Accurately Described with Excellent photography.
you do this and your returns will be close to ZERO!
Assumes facts not in evidence... Look at @Coinstartled 's post. Say you are selling vast quantities of generic classic gold that trade for a few dollars over spot. This new policy allows buyers to return items for 30 days if the spot market declines significantly. How fair is that?
Sell Coins that Collectors Want which are Accurately Described with Excellent photography.
you do this and your returns will be close to ZERO!
Assumes facts not in evidence... Look at @Coinstartled 's post. Say you are selling vast quantities of generic classic gold that trade for a few dollars over spot. This new policy allows buyers to return items for 30 days if the spot market declines significantly. How fair is that?
And so would the CC company... You are focussing on the 0.1% of people who will try and scam you rather than the 99.9% of people who don't.
If you want to play that game, your problem isn't 30 day free returns. Your bigger problem is someone shipping back an empty envelope within your 7 day window - even if you charged a restocking fee.
Sell Coins that Collectors Want which are Accurately Described with Excellent photography.
you do this and your returns will be close to ZERO!
Assumes facts not in evidence... Look at @Coinstartled 's post. Say you are selling vast quantities of generic classic gold that trade for a few dollars over spot. This new policy allows buyers to return items for 30 days if the spot market declines significantly. How fair is that?
And so would the CC company... You are focussing on the 0.1% of people who will try and scam you rather than the 99.9% of people who don't.
If you want to play that game, your problem isn't 30 day free returns. Your bigger problem is someone shipping back an empty envelope within your 7 day window - even if you charged a restocking fee.
You can live in fear or you can LIVE!
You keep making my point for me. There are so many traps waiting for those who have an unrealistic view of how cut throat the vast majority of the public really is. It is sad when you need to open your mail in front of USPS employees.
Sell Coins that Collectors Want which are Accurately Described with Excellent photography.
you do this and your returns will be close to ZERO!
Assumes facts not in evidence... Look at @Coinstartled 's post. Say you are selling vast quantities of generic classic gold that trade for a few dollars over spot. This new policy allows buyers to return items for 30 days if the spot market declines significantly. How fair is that?
And so would the CC company... You are focussing on the 0.1% of people who will try and scam you rather than the 99.9% of people who don't.
If you want to play that game, your problem isn't 30 day free returns. Your bigger problem is someone shipping back an empty envelope within your 7 day window - even if you charged a restocking fee.
You can live in fear or you can LIVE!
That is a nice political punch line, but let's get back to the discussion. As this is a PCGS forum, many here sell professionally graded coins from PCGS as well as NGC. With the exception or Errorsoncoins who has cornered the market on fast cash, this is a very low margin business. As the higher fees chip away at the remaining profit, the more relaxed terms add an additional level of risk to the serious seller. Neiman Marcus offers customers a boatload of perks which their triple keystone (or higher) markup affords. Not so easy to do when you pay $825 for a CC Morgan and offer it at $1000.
ple who will try and scam you rather than the 99.9% of people who don't.
If you want to play that game, your problem isn't 30 day free returns. Your bigger problem is someone shipping back an empty envelope within your 7 day window - even if you charged a restocking fee.
You can live in fear or you can LIVE!
You keep making my point for me. There are so many traps waiting for those who have an unrealistic view of how cut throat the vast majority of the public really is. It is sad when you need to open your mail in front of USPS employees.
Actually, the point of this thread is that eBay is doing things that aren't in the best interest of sellers. But that is simply not true. All of the things you are worried about can be done by any buyer with low enough scruples to try it, with or without eBay. Which is, again, why it is NOT an eBay problem. eBay's 30 day returns aren't even real given that every buyer on eBay has 90 to 180 days of free returns courtesy of SNAD or chargebacks. That is the thing that keeps getting ignored in the design to impugn eBay.
That is a nice political punch line, but let's get back to the discussion. As this is a PCGS forum, many here sell professionally graded coins from PCGS as well as NGC. With the exception or Errorsoncoins who has cornered the market on fast cash, this is a very low margin business. As the higher fees chip away at the remaining profit, the more relaxed terms add an additional level of risk to the serious seller. Neiman Marcus offers customers a boatload of perks which their triple keystone (or higher) markup affords. Not so easy to do when you pay $825 for a CC Morgan and offer it at $1000.
And, again, the discussion entirely misses the point. If you sell anything anywhere for anything other than cash, you are offering 90 to 180 day returns no matter what your stated policy is. If you want to complain about eBay, you can mock them for pretending that you can even offer no returns or 30 day returns.
The only way you can have a 7 day return policy or a restocking fee or no returns is if you only deal with cash. And, as a buyer, I would never deal with someone sight unseen on those terms. And neither would you.
@jmlanzaf said:
Actually, the point of this thread is that eBay is doing things that aren't in the best interest of sellers. But that is simply not true.
It is true. Your argument is really that there are still ways to screw sellers. Fine. Why should eBay make it easier to take advantage of sellers? Would you rather play Russian Roulette with one round/full chamber or multiple? With each round, your odds of "winning" or doing well decrease and the odds of catastrophe increase.
Your argument in this thread is also short sighted and wrong. PayPal will not allow you to do an infinite number of SNAD claims. See https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-Buyer-Abuse-FAQ1651. You can however, do an infinite number of day 29 or 30 returns. Credit card companies will also cancel the credit cards of buyers who repeatedly abuse the charge back process. Of course there are other ways of dealing with the issue too for the more creative, but I won't divert this thread anymore.
@cameonut2011 said:
For all of those that constantly defend eBay and its policies, how much stock do you own in it and/or are you or a family member eBay employees?
To be fair, one could similarly ask whether you have sold eBay stock short.
@cameonut2011 said:
For all of those that constantly defend eBay and its policies, how much stock do you own in it and/or are you or a family member eBay employees?
To be fair, one could similarly ask whether you have sold eBay stock short.
I have not. I do not have any financial entanglement with eBay. I do like your idea though. Perhaps I should start shorting the stock if it continues down this path. The Supreme Court's Wayfair ruling could also have some interesting effects.
@jmlanzaf said:
Actually, the point of this thread is that eBay is doing things that aren't in the best interest of sellers. But that is simply not true.
It is true. Your argument is really that there are still ways to screw sellers. Fine. Why should eBay make it easier to take advantage of sellers? Would you rather play Russian Roulette with one round/full chamber or multiple? With each round, your odds of "winning" or doing well decrease and the odds of catastrophe increase.
Your argument in this thread is also short sighted and wrong. PayPal will not allow you to do an infinite number of SNAD claims. See https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-Buyer-Abuse-FAQ1651. You can however, do an infinite number of day 29 or 30 returns. Credit card companies will also cancel the credit cards of buyers who repeatedly abuse the charge back process. Of course there are other ways of dealing with the issue too for the more creative, but I won't divert this thread anymore
Show me where in eBay policies it says you can do an infinite number of returns. They allow you to report abuse by buyers and, presumably, they suspend or ban people.
SNAD would be filed on eBay not on PayPal. If you don't trust eBay to block these people, claiming a limit to SNAD is flawed.
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that someone could somehow monetize this fraud such that it was worth repeating numerous times. How? The idea of buying bullion is horribly flawed: gold doesn't jump $50-$75 in 30 days very often and at less than that, you're making zero money. You could buy a coin, shop it around a show and then return it. Sure. How many times are you going to do that? And if you are a coin dealer, why are you risking your reputation by trying it more than once?
And even if the scam exists in some profitable way, EBAY HASN'T MADE IT ANY EASIER THAN IT EVER WAS. SNAD has been around for years.
@cameonut2011 said:
For all of those that constantly defend eBay and its policies, how much stock do you own in it and/or are you or a family member eBay employees?
I do not own stock in ebay.
Ebay has allowed me to build a business that I am proud of, that is profitable, and is growing very fast.
@cameonut2011 said:
For all of those that constantly defend eBay and its policies, how much stock do you own in it and/or are you or a family member eBay employees?
For those of you that level constant criticism, did an eBay employee bed your wife? Shoot your mother?
In this instance, you are simply refusing to see that eBay [and many seller's] policy is actually LAGGING the industry not leading it. And, for the 80th time, we've always been at the mercy of the CC policies.
A friend of mine who sells used vintage toys had a chargeback filed MORE THAN 30 days after receipt claiming SNAD since the toy didn't work. Presumably, the bozo played with it, broke it and wanted his money back. My buddy had to take return of the now broken toy and refund his money. AND THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH EBAY.
I had my first chargeback on eBay almost 15 years ago, as soon as PayPal started processing payments. I don't remember how long after sale it was, but I was forced to take return and refund the money.
Those of you that think eBay's return policy matters for anything but cash purchases simply don't know anything about retail sales. It is always the CC policies that matter not Walmart's or Target's or Coins R' Us.
Further, your whole objection has become predicated on the possibility of someone doing this hundreds of times as a scam rather than just SOMEONE LIKE YOU not liking the coin in hand and returning it. 99% of ALL RETURNS are going to fall into the buyer's remorse category not the "scam" category. And I find it laughable that a bunch of coin collectors object to having an avenue for LEGITIMATELY returning a coin.
And so 30 day returns are simply not an eBay issue.
LOL. C'mon I wanna see the rant. It is the Credit Card companies that cause me the most problems. On a chargeback, they immediately freeze the funds while they sort it out. I once had a customer in India file a chargeback after I had already refunded him. Because it was past the PAYPAL 30 DAY AUTOMATIC REFUND LIMIT, I PayPal-ed the money to the guy separate from the original payment. So the guy filed a chargeback also!
It took several weeks to sort it out. During that whole time, the cash was frozen and I couldn't access it. eBay was NOT INVOLVED. PayPal was BARELY INVOLVED other than in turning it over to the CC company.
In the end, they ruled in my favor but mostly because of all the emails I had from the guy. Some of them weird. It was, in retrospect, some kind of weird scam. At one point, he wanted me to refund him a second time and then have his boss send me a refund from a different account - supposedly something about card bonus or something.
@cameonut2011 said:
For all of those that constantly defend eBay and its policies, how much stock do you own in it and/or are you or a family member eBay employees?
eBay stocks performance hasn’t been exactly stellar.
52 week high 46.99
52 week low 32.85
Current price 34.06
@jmlanzaf said:
Show me where in eBay policies it says you can do an infinite number of returns. They allow you to report abuse by buyers and, presumably, they suspend or ban people.
SNAD would be filed on eBay not on PayPal. If you don't trust eBay to block these people, claiming a limit to SNAD is flawed.
You're not thinking through this because your post makes no sense. If you offer a 30 day return privilege without condition (as far as I can tell there is no way to limit the reason for the return during the 30 days), then you are bound to honor it. EBay is not going to punish someone who is performing in accordance with its contract. After all you "agreed" to it. I use agree in quotes because you will hurt your business if you don't offer returns, and your option is no return or a minimum 30 days per eBay. Your argument is a non-starter.
As for SNAD, maybe I am using the wrong terminology. PayPal and credit card companies will not let you continually do charge backs/disputes as you claim. That is my point. Maybe a couple, but if you serially file disputes, PayPal will act and your credit card company would cancel your card. There is no reason to believe that eBay will punish those that do what the listing now plainly allows (even though it was forced by eBay's stupid policy).
As for your argument that you could always force a prolonged return, if true, then why does eBay need to even force a 30 day return privilege? If the item is garbage, a SNAD or PayPal dispute could always be filed during that period per you. The whole thing stinks.
@jmlanzaf said:
Show me where in eBay policies it says you can do an infinite number of returns. They allow you to report abuse by buyers and, presumably, they suspend or ban people.
SNAD would be filed on eBay not on PayPal. If you don't trust eBay to block these people, claiming a limit to SNAD is flawed.
You're not thinking through this because your post makes no sense. If you offer a 30 day return privilege without condition (as far as I can tell there is no way to limit the reason for the return during the 30 days), then you are bound to honor it. EBay is not going to punish someone who is performing in accordance with its contract. After all you "agreed" to it. I use agree in quotes because you will hurt your business if you don't offer returns, and your option is no return or a minimum 30 days per eBay. Your argument is a non-starter.
As for SNAD, maybe I am using the wrong terminology. PayPal and credit card companies will not let you continually do charge backs/disputes as you claim. That is my point. Maybe a couple, but if you serially file disputes, PayPal will act and your credit card company would cancel your card. There is no reason to believe that eBay will punish those that do what the listing now plainly allows (even though it was forced by eBay's stupid policy).
As for your argument that you could always force a prolonged return, if true, then why does eBay need to even force a 30 day return privilege? If the item is garbage, a SNAD or PayPal dispute could always be filed during that period per you. The whole thing stinks.
Simply NOT true. Most retailers ban anyone who abuses their privileges. It has little to do with their stated policy being violated. That includes Amazon, Walmart, and eBay though none of them specify X returns in X time. ABUSE of returns, by eBay, has nothing to do with whether or not you obeyed the specified terms. Go ahead and google it, lots of stories on message boards about people being suspended or blocked for excessive returns.
Your last paragraph is exactly my point. It is NOT an eBay issue. The 30 day return privilege is moot since the return privileges of all the payers are more generous.
You're not thinking through this because your post makes no sense. If you offer a 30 day return privilege without condition (as far as I can tell there is no way to limit the reason for the return during the 30 days), then you are bound to honor it. EBay is not going to punish someone who is performing in accordance with its contract. After all you "agreed" to it. I use agree in quotes because you will hurt your business if you don't offer returns, and your option is no return or a minimum 30 days per eBay. Your argument is a non-starter.
You're not thinking through this because your post makes no sense. If you offer a 30 day return privilege without condition (as far as I can tell there is no way to limit the reason for the return during the 30 days), then you are bound to honor it. EBay is not going to punish someone who is performing in accordance with its contract. After all you "agreed" to it. I use agree in quotes because you will hurt your business if you don't offer returns, and your option is no return or a minimum 30 days per eBay. Your argument is a non-starter.
The only one relating to eBay includes this: " My account has been suspended because of too many returns outside seller's return policies."
Of course the others will ban you because (1) they own and/or are on the hook for the goods and (2) for amazon, it has money invested in warehouses and fulfillment centers. EBay mostly provides software to merely connect buyers and sellers. That's a HUGE difference. EBay couldn't care less about you unless you are funneling mega bucks their way.
@topstuf said:
And to think eBay was started to sell PEZ dispensers!
Yes and it was called "Auction Web" and you could actually send an email to Pierre Omidyar and he would reply. ebay is no longer an Auction like it used to be no returns paid with a check or M.O. When 1st started it was like a regular auction, bid on something and take it home. The auctioneer did not give you ANY kind of refund you bought it you own it. ebay is just like a big store now if you don't like it you return it and get your money back no matter what. Going to Auctions used to be fun and relaxing for me anyhow, you knew what you wanted and bid your limit "sometimes a little more" and it was yours. Myself I liked the box lots you never knew what you had until you got home, sometimes you may find really good stuff in a box you only paid a few dollars for. Now it's hard to find auctions, in my area they just call them TAG sales. Ah yes the good old days before there became so much Greed.......
Yes. Look at the other link. Just 10 returns of all kinds out of 57 purchases.
The point is that eBay will crack down. Personally, I block buyers after 1 return. But, that's just me.
...and the unscrupulous buyer will merely buy from you with an alternate account. The bad players are few, but we don't need Ebay to help them.
eBay is NOT helping them. That's the point. PayPal and your credit card company are helping them. That's the point. eBay 30 day free returns is an advertising gimmick. It does NOT change the playing field. You NEVER had 7 day returns or no returns. NEVER.
I used to have 14 day returns. But during that time, I've had returns as long as 90 days (NINETY DAYS!!!) going back years because of charge backs. In fact, you are really effed when that happens because you won't even get your eBay fees back because it is past 90 days.
And during my whole "14 day return" period, it was "buyer pays". And 90% of the time I HAD TO PAY.
The only one relating to eBay includes this: " My account has been suspended because of too many returns outside seller's return policies."
Of course the others will ban you because (1) they own and/or are on the hook for the goods and (2) for amazon, it has money invested in warehouses and fulfillment centers. EBay mostly provides software to merely connect buyers and sellers. That's a HUGE difference. EBay couldn't care less about you unless you are funneling mega bucks their way.
That's not true. eBay cares less, but they do ban people for excessive returns.
And again, eBay is not the problem. I'm tired of this conversation, but I could tell you stories going back 15 years where I, or colleagues, were forced to take returns as long as 4 months after the sale by the credit card companies.
eBay 30 day returns is an advertising gimmick. Every eBay shopper already has 90 to 180 day returns unless they are idiots. Every retailer faces this.
Your eBay bias blinds you to the reality of commerce today.
Comments
GEEEEZ,
How about this for the sellers who hate ebay.
Sell Coins that Collectors Want which are Accurately Described with Excellent photography.
you do this and your returns will be close to ZERO!
I do not accept returns, but of course, ebay forces you to now, and that ok, as my return rate is less than 1% which is probably better than retail. Some people (customers) are impossible to please, but that is human nature and you have to accept that fact.
IMO, the problem is definitely Feebay ( and the odd crook).
They drown everyone, especially sellers, in convoluted rules and regulations. However, they do not have competent employees to deal with any possible issues in a proper and efficient way. i do not believe that any of Ebays standard answers are written by anyone who knows what they are in fact writing about.
Ebay COULD put a stop to all the BS going on in seconds. All they have to do is eliminating their unreasonable rules and come up with solid rules and requirements.... AND, enforce these to the letter.
This example picked at random: enforce a minimum of 2 images posted of the item being sold.
these images must be a minimum of a certain High Definition size, reduced, so they can be enlarged to a minimum blown up size so even minute details can bee seen. Hence eliminating any:"I did not see that scratch" claims. AND every buyer, by bidding, must acknowledge that the images and descriptions have been seen and understood.
it would eliminate most "not as described" claims.
By bidding the buyer also states that the bidder is acting in good faith when bidding. I believe that industry has certain federal "good faith laws".
But all this and more is NOT in Feebays monetary interest.
Amongst other advantages in their favor, presently they get to keep any "money in limbo "escrow" until the matter is solved. It is used as quasi free operating capital, guaranteed by an insurance / bond company. otherwise they could not legally touch / or use escrow money.
I do not know what the laws are in the USA with respect to a "right to return items" for made up reasons.
however, if I, or most normal and honest buyers, buy an item and I have a solid reason to complain, I should have to do this within 7 days and not more. ( there may be verifiable circumstances allowing for exceptions.
another contention is Global shipping which in many cases does simply NOT make sense. But... I will not "go there" today.
Sorry guys if my rant got a bit too long.
You have no choice. That's the point. The buyer can ALWAYS SNAD or do a charge back. That's the point.
IT IS NOT AN EBAY PROBLEM, it's a 21st century commerce problem. Back in the old days, when I handed you $1300 cash and you handed me a MS63 Saint, it was HARD for you to get your money back. You had to either rely on my kindness or sue me, which is difficult. That is NOT the modern world. Almost no one uses cash for anything. Chargebacks exist on credit cards and people LOVE the security of it. Buy a vacuum cleaner from Walmart.com It doesn't work, send it back for free! Buy a dress, it doesn't fit, send it back for free. Buy a dress, want to send it back, seller says they don't accept returns, file a chargeback. IT IS NOT AN EBAY PROBLEM.
Free 30 day returns on eBay are simply the STANDARD for 21st century commerce. And anyone with a 9th grade education and a credit card knows they essentially have up to 180 days in return privileges via the chargeback.
I have considered everything I sell on the internet - IN ANY VENUE - to have at least 90 day return privileges ever since PayPal arose. In the early days (late 90s), most of my payments came via money orders. Those it was easy to have strict return policies. Ever since virtually all payments were by PayPal/credit card, unless you are "special", you have to know that you had 90 day returns thrust upon you by the PAYMENT METHOD.
I disagree as buying from BAD photos is a very good business on ebay.
Plus, most people have no idea (the skill required) of how to take a good picture of a coin.
Everything I sell on BST has 90 day return privileges. Why? Because I get paid via PayPal. Why do I get paid via PayPal? Because I want to give my buyers, who don't know me, confidence in the transaction. If I saw a coin on BST advertised with money order only from someone I don't know, I wouldn't buy it. So I don't expect anyone else to. PayPal comes with up to 180 days chargeback privileges depending on the method of funding. THAT IS THE REALITY OF 21ST CENTURY COMMERCE.
You wanna be a dealer...that's the cost of doing business.
[Anyone want to resurrect the Hunter Smith thread?]
You are incorrect, not just in the USA but globally.
The "right to return" is really the "right to refund" and that is determined NOT by the sales venue in most cases but by the payment method. If you charge anything, anywhere in the world, you essentially have 90 to 180 day return/refund privileges because of the terms of the credit card.
This is true. But there are also people that have tremendous skill in taking coin pictures that HIDE THE FLAWS.
It is somewhat shocking to me that a bunch of coin collectors are arguing against return privileges.
I wish I had time to pull up all the threads where someone said: just got this coin, what do you think of this...[spot, contact mark, rim nick...]? And invariably, 90% of the responses are: return it!
And, if someone bought a coin, submitted it and it came back "questionable color" or "tooled", how many people would WANT RETURN PRIVILEGES?
And I bet just about everyone on this board has either returned (or had their wife do it) a Christmas gift that had been bought a month or more before because it was the wrong color, or the wrong size, or the wrong style.
Funny how people's perspective changes when they are on the other side of the counter.
You are probably correct.
However, IMO a return policy is a privilege granted under the "good faith" transaction.
If someone has a solid ground for returning a coin, then that is ok. However, Feebay does absolutely nothing to stop frivolous returns with very questionable reasons. As said before, all they have to do is change their policy and ENFORCE it. As long as a seller can not give negative feedback, things will not change!
I was invited to meet with some eBay reps at the ANA show next week. Whatever their plans are to tell me about the features they have to get me to sell more, my sole focus is to discuss how their policies are killing coin sellers and point out some of the customer-unfriendly things I've done just to work within the policies.
I've had plenty of SNADs opened--the vast majority with no legitimacy (the legitimate ones being an honest error on my part where I'd cover the full cost of the return even without a SNAD being opened)--even though I've always had a return policy. Many buyers use it as a way to turn a return where they're out shipping costs into a totally free return.
It's true that the ultimate authority is PP/credit card policy. The difference is that's not advertised. I've had buyers open returns at the end of the window (14 days for a long time until that was deemed too short), then wait another week to ship, and by the time it gets to me, it's 30 days. I've had buyers ask to return items well past the return policy expiration just because. If someone really wants to be shady, yes, they have the trump card with their payment method. But if they're just clueless or lazy to some degree and want to return an item late, giving them the option to do so means they can take you up on it. For that reason I won't give them that option.
So your thesis is that the ANA should help dealers by fighting a policy that protects buyers/collectors?
Duh. Again, my problem is not with legitimate cases but for frivolous SNAD claims. There are many buyers that will file a SNAD just to avoid paying postage or for other abusive reasons. The design is poorly structured and is very one sided IMHO.
You better cross your fingers and hope that gold spot prices don't fall within 30 days after you sell generic gold. This is exactly what I am griping about. What if you are selling thousands of dollars of generic gold? Can you afford to tie up your inventory money for 30 days?
We are on the same page. Common gold has mostly become a moot point as Ebay fees have made melting the yellow metal a more economical option. One could lose their shirt (and trousers) in a sharp decline on the returns alone.
Assumes facts not in evidence... Look at @Coinstartled 's post. Say you are selling vast quantities of generic classic gold that trade for a few dollars over spot. This new policy allows buyers to return items for 30 days if the spot market declines significantly. How fair is that?
And so would the CC company... You are focussing on the 0.1% of people who will try and scam you rather than the 99.9% of people who don't.
If you want to play that game, your problem isn't 30 day free returns. Your bigger problem is someone shipping back an empty envelope within your 7 day window - even if you charged a restocking fee.
You can live in fear or you can LIVE!
You keep making my point for me. There are so many traps waiting for those who have an unrealistic view of how cut throat the vast majority of the public really is. It is sad when you need to open your mail in front of USPS employees.
That is a nice political punch line, but let's get back to the discussion. As this is a PCGS forum, many here sell professionally graded coins from PCGS as well as NGC. With the exception or Errorsoncoins who has cornered the market on fast cash, this is a very low margin business. As the higher fees chip away at the remaining profit, the more relaxed terms add an additional level of risk to the serious seller. Neiman Marcus offers customers a boatload of perks which their triple keystone (or higher) markup affords. Not so easy to do when you pay $825 for a CC Morgan and offer it at $1000.
Actually, the point of this thread is that eBay is doing things that aren't in the best interest of sellers. But that is simply not true. All of the things you are worried about can be done by any buyer with low enough scruples to try it, with or without eBay. Which is, again, why it is NOT an eBay problem. eBay's 30 day returns aren't even real given that every buyer on eBay has 90 to 180 days of free returns courtesy of SNAD or chargebacks. That is the thing that keeps getting ignored in the design to impugn eBay.
And, again, the discussion entirely misses the point. If you sell anything anywhere for anything other than cash, you are offering 90 to 180 day returns no matter what your stated policy is. If you want to complain about eBay, you can mock them for pretending that you can even offer no returns or 30 day returns.
The only way you can have a 7 day return policy or a restocking fee or no returns is if you only deal with cash. And, as a buyer, I would never deal with someone sight unseen on those terms. And neither would you.
It is true. Your argument is really that there are still ways to screw sellers. Fine. Why should eBay make it easier to take advantage of sellers? Would you rather play Russian Roulette with one round/full chamber or multiple? With each round, your odds of "winning" or doing well decrease and the odds of catastrophe increase.
Your argument in this thread is also short sighted and wrong. PayPal will not allow you to do an infinite number of SNAD claims. See https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/What-is-Buyer-Abuse-FAQ1651. You can however, do an infinite number of day 29 or 30 returns. Credit card companies will also cancel the credit cards of buyers who repeatedly abuse the charge back process. Of course there are other ways of dealing with the issue too for the more creative, but I won't divert this thread anymore.
For all of those that constantly defend eBay and its policies, how much stock do you own in it and/or are you or a family member eBay employees?
To be fair, one could similarly ask whether you have sold eBay stock short.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I have not. I do not have any financial entanglement with eBay. I do like your idea though. Perhaps I should start shorting the stock if it continues down this path. The Supreme Court's Wayfair ruling could also have some interesting effects.
Deleted. Credit card rant.
Show me where in eBay policies it says you can do an infinite number of returns. They allow you to report abuse by buyers and, presumably, they suspend or ban people.
SNAD would be filed on eBay not on PayPal. If you don't trust eBay to block these people, claiming a limit to SNAD is flawed.
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that someone could somehow monetize this fraud such that it was worth repeating numerous times. How? The idea of buying bullion is horribly flawed: gold doesn't jump $50-$75 in 30 days very often and at less than that, you're making zero money. You could buy a coin, shop it around a show and then return it. Sure. How many times are you going to do that? And if you are a coin dealer, why are you risking your reputation by trying it more than once?
And even if the scam exists in some profitable way, EBAY HASN'T MADE IT ANY EASIER THAN IT EVER WAS. SNAD has been around for years.
https://ecommercebytes.com/C/letters/blog.pl?/pl/2012/12/1354472922.html
I do not own stock in ebay.
Ebay has allowed me to build a business that I am proud of, that is profitable, and is growing very fast.
For those of you that level constant criticism, did an eBay employee bed your wife? Shoot your mother?
In this instance, you are simply refusing to see that eBay [and many seller's] policy is actually LAGGING the industry not leading it. And, for the 80th time, we've always been at the mercy of the CC policies.
A friend of mine who sells used vintage toys had a chargeback filed MORE THAN 30 days after receipt claiming SNAD since the toy didn't work. Presumably, the bozo played with it, broke it and wanted his money back. My buddy had to take return of the now broken toy and refund his money. AND THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH EBAY.
I had my first chargeback on eBay almost 15 years ago, as soon as PayPal started processing payments. I don't remember how long after sale it was, but I was forced to take return and refund the money.
Those of you that think eBay's return policy matters for anything but cash purchases simply don't know anything about retail sales. It is always the CC policies that matter not Walmart's or Target's or Coins R' Us.
Further, your whole objection has become predicated on the possibility of someone doing this hundreds of times as a scam rather than just SOMEONE LIKE YOU not liking the coin in hand and returning it. 99% of ALL RETURNS are going to fall into the buyer's remorse category not the "scam" category. And I find it laughable that a bunch of coin collectors object to having an avenue for LEGITIMATELY returning a coin.
And so 30 day returns are simply not an eBay issue.
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Archive-Returns/Ebay-suspended-buying-for-90-ebays-says-toomany-refunds-received/td-p/2715821
LOL. C'mon I wanna see the rant. It is the Credit Card companies that cause me the most problems. On a chargeback, they immediately freeze the funds while they sort it out. I once had a customer in India file a chargeback after I had already refunded him. Because it was past the PAYPAL 30 DAY AUTOMATIC REFUND LIMIT, I PayPal-ed the money to the guy separate from the original payment. So the guy filed a chargeback also!
It took several weeks to sort it out. During that whole time, the cash was frozen and I couldn't access it. eBay was NOT INVOLVED. PayPal was BARELY INVOLVED other than in turning it over to the CC company.
In the end, they ruled in my favor but mostly because of all the emails I had from the guy. Some of them weird. It was, in retrospect, some kind of weird scam. At one point, he wanted me to refund him a second time and then have his boss send me a refund from a different account - supposedly something about card bonus or something.
eBay stocks performance hasn’t been exactly stellar.
52 week high 46.99
52 week low 32.85
Current price 34.06
"My account has been suspended because of too many returns outside seller's return policies."
Yes. Look at the other link. Just 10 returns of all kinds out of 57 purchases.
The point is that eBay will crack down. Personally, I block buyers after 1 return. But, that's just me.
You're not thinking through this because your post makes no sense. If you offer a 30 day return privilege without condition (as far as I can tell there is no way to limit the reason for the return during the 30 days), then you are bound to honor it. EBay is not going to punish someone who is performing in accordance with its contract. After all you "agreed" to it. I use agree in quotes because you will hurt your business if you don't offer returns, and your option is no return or a minimum 30 days per eBay. Your argument is a non-starter.
As for SNAD, maybe I am using the wrong terminology. PayPal and credit card companies will not let you continually do charge backs/disputes as you claim. That is my point. Maybe a couple, but if you serially file disputes, PayPal will act and your credit card company would cancel your card. There is no reason to believe that eBay will punish those that do what the listing now plainly allows (even though it was forced by eBay's stupid policy).
As for your argument that you could always force a prolonged return, if true, then why does eBay need to even force a 30 day return privilege? If the item is garbage, a SNAD or PayPal dispute could always be filed during that period per you. The whole thing stinks.
Simply NOT true. Most retailers ban anyone who abuses their privileges. It has little to do with their stated policy being violated. That includes Amazon, Walmart, and eBay though none of them specify X returns in X time. ABUSE of returns, by eBay, has nothing to do with whether or not you obeyed the specified terms. Go ahead and google it, lots of stories on message boards about people being suspended or blocked for excessive returns.
Your last paragraph is exactly my point. It is NOT an eBay issue. The 30 day return privilege is moot since the return privileges of all the payers are more generous.
time.com/money/5288702/amazon-return-policy-ban/
time.com/money/5288702/amazon-return-policy-ban/> @cameonut2011 said:
\
https://moneytalksnews.com/think-twice-before-returning-items-these-5-stores/
@cameonut2011
https://ecommercebytes.com/C/letters/blog.pl?/pl/2012/12/1354472922.html
https://retailwire.com/discussion/should-chronic-returners-be-banned/
https://thestar.com/business/2016/05/14/what-happens-when-online-shoppers-return-too-many-items.html
You tagged the wrong poster.
The only one relating to eBay includes this: " My account has been suspended because of too many returns outside seller's return policies."
Of course the others will ban you because (1) they own and/or are on the hook for the goods and (2) for amazon, it has money invested in warehouses and fulfillment centers. EBay mostly provides software to merely connect buyers and sellers. That's a HUGE difference. EBay couldn't care less about you unless you are funneling mega bucks their way.
...and the unscrupulous buyer will merely buy from you with an alternate account. The bad players are few, but we don't need Ebay to help them.
Yes and it was called "Auction Web" and you could actually send an email to Pierre Omidyar and he would reply. ebay is no longer an Auction like it used to be no returns paid with a check or M.O. When 1st started it was like a regular auction, bid on something and take it home. The auctioneer did not give you ANY kind of refund you bought it you own it. ebay is just like a big store now if you don't like it you return it and get your money back no matter what. Going to Auctions used to be fun and relaxing for me anyhow, you knew what you wanted and bid your limit "sometimes a little more" and it was yours. Myself I liked the box lots you never knew what you had until you got home, sometimes you may find really good stuff in a box you only paid a few dollars for. Now it's hard to find auctions, in my area they just call them TAG sales. Ah yes the good old days before there became so much Greed.......
eBay is NOT helping them. That's the point. PayPal and your credit card company are helping them. That's the point. eBay 30 day free returns is an advertising gimmick. It does NOT change the playing field. You NEVER had 7 day returns or no returns. NEVER.
I used to have 14 day returns. But during that time, I've had returns as long as 90 days (NINETY DAYS!!!) going back years because of charge backs. In fact, you are really effed when that happens because you won't even get your eBay fees back because it is past 90 days.
And during my whole "14 day return" period, it was "buyer pays". And 90% of the time I HAD TO PAY.
That's not true. eBay cares less, but they do ban people for excessive returns.
And again, eBay is not the problem. I'm tired of this conversation, but I could tell you stories going back 15 years where I, or colleagues, were forced to take returns as long as 4 months after the sale by the credit card companies.
eBay 30 day returns is an advertising gimmick. Every eBay shopper already has 90 to 180 day returns unless they are idiots. Every retailer faces this.
Your eBay bias blinds you to the reality of commerce today.
Is everyone forced to take returns or just store owners who want top rated FVF discounts?
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