PCGS Certifies 1st known 1878-S Specimen Morgan Dollar

StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭
edited August 6, 2018 9:09AM in U.S. Coin Forum
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Comments

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 9:14AM

    @messydesk Beware of everyone rushing to the 1878-S VAM-58 page ... Here they come!

    What a wonderful discovery (and discovery piece)!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 15,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just saw this on Facebook. Very exciting coin! Perhaps this was made upon request for someone who heard of the special coins struck and engraved on April 17 using the VAM 60 die pair, but didn't get one. Bonus is that from the pictures, it looks like a really nice coin.

  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 3,965 ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 9:37AM

    This is a very exciting discovery, and I would love to hear the details behind its finding.

    If it goes to auction, I think it will fetch a quarter million dollars or more.

    23 years old. Lurking and learning since 2010.
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought they had done one years ago in a regency holder? Now I need to look for that one.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a 1878-S in a regency holder with no grade but noted presentation strike, it is also a long knock and DMPL in appearance. It has the April 17th engraving. I guess the making makes it a presentation. Would love to see the SP one in the OP. That is a WOW coin for me.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 10:17AM

    That is a beautiful coin! Incredible strike AND color! I think that a "65" grade is very conservative...possibly by a full grade or two. Is the S/N known? TrueView? CAC candidate? What it went for at auction last?

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11...



    PCGS DANSCO 7070 Modified Set
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/142105
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What a great find!

  • ilikemonstersilikemonsters Posts: 700 ✭✭✭✭

    @blu62vette said:
    There is a 1878-S in a regency holder with no grade but noted presentation strike, it is also a long knock and DMPL in appearance. It has the April 17th engraving. I guess the making makes it a presentation. Would love to see the SP one in the OP. That is a WOW coin for me.

    Please share a photo either here, or in my PM.

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭

    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Given those Doyle images...not so much of a show stopper.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11...



    PCGS DANSCO 7070 Modified Set
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/142105
  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 3,965 ✭✭✭

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    23 years old. Lurking and learning since 2010.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 10:36AM

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    They are the same coin though. The graded piece today's articles refer to and the pictures I linked to in the OP traces the pedigree back to that auction. The pics are subpar by today's standards, but they do blow up a tiny bit, but they are the same coin.

    Doyle Auction Catalog Pic:

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 4,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 11:07AM

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    Wow. Someone missed out on that one, or everyone. In 2006.

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think so...the obverse lines on the cheek are very similar...however...

    • The obverse has "drool" marks in front of Liberty's face on the OP Image which are not on the Doyle.
    • The reverse has different spot markers; below the arrow heads, below the second A in AMERICA, and the reverse lines on the Doyle image are not present in the OP images.
    • Of course lighting definitely plays a factor between the two...just my observations.
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11...



    PCGS DANSCO 7070 Modified Set
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/142105
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭

    The pedigree further traces this back to the 2nd coin produced with production dies, given to Governor Frederick Low.

    April 18th 1878 Newspaper article describing these events. From here:
    https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DAC18780418.2.66

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 21,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super cool dollar!

    bob :)

    BST deals: Dozens of buys/sells. Will provide a list upon request.
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 15,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 11:33AM

    Here's a picture of the Eliasberg engraved 1878-S, which is VAM 60. VAM 60 is one of the stoppers of the 78-S Long Nock set (VAM 72 is the other). The newspaper report of the die breaking after less than 1000 strikings corroborates this. VAM 58 is more common, but not as common as VAM 27, which, while still scarce, I've seen more often than the others. It makes me think that if this coin is traceable to Gov. Low, perhaps he came back the next day for another dip into the cookie jar. It could also be that the engraving is complete balderdash.

    The picture isn't the greatest, but unless someone brings it by next week for a new shot, I probably won't be able to find a better one.

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 11:34AM

    @oih82w8 said:
    I don't think so...the obverse lines on the cheek are very similar...however...

    • The obverse has "drool" marks in front of Liberty's face on the OP Image which are not on the Doyle.
    • The reverse has different spot markers; below the arrow heads, below the second A in AMERICA, and the reverse lines on the Doyle image are not present in the OP images.
    • Of course lighting definitely plays a factor between the two...just my observations.

    I see many markers to say yes, and also recognize your observations as spot on as well. The obverse is convincing, the reverse has some differences in the 2 pictures - but as you said, lighting is so different, that I expect some differences.

    In the news article"

    The collector purchased the coin at an auction in 2006 and recalled that during the lot viewing “it looked like a zebra among horses. Just too well made, it was struck like a Philadelphia Mint proof, and had obviously been handled with kid gloves.”

    But the auction catalog/website shows this lot as unsold. Anyone have contacts at Doyle to check this? Maybe it was bought after the auction, or is a type-o on that auction lot?

    And of course, if Mr. Willis can sate this - there must be some proof of the coin coming from the Doyle Auction.

    "PCGS President Don Willis stated: “When this coin was submitted to us at the June Long Beach Expo we instantly knew it was something special. After careful analysis we are pleased to designate it as a Specimen!”

    It is the earliest known specially-struck branch mint Morgan dollar.

    The unbroken pedigree of this coin dates back to the 1880s when it was the property of Bishop & Co. Bank in Honolulu, Hawaii and then acquired by Samuel Mills Damon of Honolulu, a partner in Bishop’s Bank."

    Since the collector wishes to remain anonymous, maybe someone from PCGS can state how they verified the pedigree.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk said:
    Here's a picture of the Eliasberg engraved 1878-S, which is VAM 60. VAM 60 is one of the stoppers of the 78-S Long Nock set (VAM 72 is the other). The newspaper report of the die breaking after less than 1000 strikings corroborates this. VAM 58 is more common, but not as common as VAM 27, which, while still scarce, I've seen more often than the others. It makes me think that if this coin is traceable to Gov. Low, perhaps he came back the next day for another dip into the cookie jar. It could also be that the engraving is complete balderdash.

    The picture isn't the greatest, but unless someone brings it by next week for a new shot, I probably won't be able to find a better one.

    What I don't get is assuming all the stories are correct, that the pictured VAM58 was the 2nd coin - and it ran approximately 1000 pieces before a die broke.... How could Eliasberg have one of the 1st 10 (as engraved) and it be a different VAM?

    Maybe once they changed the dies he got one of the 1st 10 from that run?

    http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=9029
    Another rare engraved dollar was part of the Louis Eliasberg collection, a souvenir of the day the first Morgan dollars were struck at San Francisco. Unlike the 1921 Denver dollars, this coin is a specimen striking, showing beautiful mirror-like surfaces and a strong strike; a case can be made that the coin is actually a branch-mint proof. The coin was graded Proof-63 in the Eliasberg Collection catalog.

    I had a chance to examine this coin at a major convention years ago. It’s a beauty that could hold its own with proof dollars. (I also recall that the price was not outrageous.) The coin was housed in a special green holder, and would have made a wonderful exhibit all by itself.

    A first strike ceremony was held at the San Francisco Mint on April 17, 1878, which included Mint Superintendent Henry Dodge and former governor, F.F. Low. The Eliasberg coin was engraved, “One of the first ten coined April 17th from J.Gus.Burt.” This coin is the only known engraved piece, although another specimen strike was sold as part of the Samuel Mills Damon Collection in March 2006.

    and:
    http://neilsberman.com/pdf/news_MorganProofsandSpecimens_7_07.pdf

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 19,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i like

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, uncertified by a major authority it goes unsold; certified by PCGS now worth hundreds of thousands...

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 15,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 6:48PM

    >

    What I don't get is assuming all the stories are correct, that the pictured VAM58 was the 2nd coin - and it ran approximately 1000 pieces before a die broke.... How could Eliasberg have one of the 1st 10 (as engraved) and it be a different VAM?

    Maybe once they changed the dies he got one of the 1st 10 from that run?

    I think the assumption that all the stories are correct is not a good one. VAM 60 shares an obverse with VAM 26 and VAM 57. VAM 58 has a unique obverse and reverse. The article only mentions "the die" cracked, not "the dies," implying only one die needed replacing, assuming the reporters accounting of the events was precise (not a safe assumption). If @RogerB were some day able to turn up the coinage logs for April 1878, we could probably solve this riddle.

    Producing 10 VAM 58s, then removing the dies, and then later putting them back in the press without mating either with another die seems very unlikely to me, although technically not impossible.

    Edit: VAM 58 does not have a unique reverse. It is shared with VAM 56.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,551 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 1:42PM

    @oih82w8 said:
    I don't think so...the obverse lines on the cheek are very similar...however...

    • The obverse has "drool" marks in front of Liberty's face on the OP Image which are not on the Doyle.
    • The reverse has different spot markers; below the arrow heads, below the second A in AMERICA, and the reverse lines on the Doyle image are not present in the OP images.
    • Of course lighting definitely plays a factor between the two...just my observations.

    I agree w/strikeout. It looks like the same coin. It has probably been "improved" (conserved) since it was first auctioned. :)

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Wow, uncertified by a major authority it goes unsold; certified by PCGS now worth hundreds of thousands...

    Strange since he said he bought it at auction in 2006, when the auction was. There were some 1878 Trade dollars in that auction, also showing unsold.

  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,249 ✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    Wow, uncertified by a major authority it goes unsold; certified by PCGS now worth hundreds of thousands...

    The VAM 58 was sold in the 2006 auction . The remark in prices realized is an error.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • pbjpbj Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    Could someone please explain how it could be graded only 65 if it was the second coin minted and handed directly to the Governor of California and has an unbroken pedigree. Why not SP70? Do the planchet defects (striations) and die defects (polish lines) detract from the eye appeal and from a perfect grade? Strike is beautiful. I can see no marks. Perhaps luster issues from dipping?... But why would it have been cleaned in its lifetime? Plus with toning being "in", why not SP70+?

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 963 ✭✭✭✭✭

    go find the old Wayne Miller coin. That should be called a specimen too

  • pbjpbj Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    @StrikeOutXXX said:

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    They are the same coin though. The graded piece today's articles refer to and the pictures I linked to in the OP traces the pedigree back to that auction. The pics are subpar by today's standards, but they do blow up a tiny bit, but they are the same coin.

    Doyle Auction Catalog Pic:

    @Insider2 I disagree with you and @StrikeOutXXX and agree with @oih82w8 and @BustHalfBrian. Discounting the obvious differences in toning (assuming it has been cleaned and retoned), there are other significant differences between the two coins. I put the two coin images side by side on a large high resolution monitor and noted the following differences that most likely cannot be attributed to the poor focus and lighting of the Doyle image:
    1) The lines on the obverse of the PCGS graded coin while at a similar angle to the Doyle auction image, are more closely spaced and only on the cheek. On the Doyle, they are more widely spaced and extend the length of the coin from 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock - in the field, face, neck and hair.
    2) The 7s are different.
    3) Top lips look different.
    Reverse:
    1) Same type of lines as on obverse are visible on Doyle reverse, not seen on PCGS graded coin - running the length of the coin across field and devices from 11 o'clock to 5 o'clock.
    2) Serif on U in UNITED missing on Doyle, damaged on PCGS.
    3) Rim marks at 12 o'clock on PCGS not visible on Doyle. (possible lightning/focus)
    4) Polish lines in field through "In God we trust" on PCGS not visible on Doyle.
    5) Eye on eagle appears different.

    Just a few of my observations. What are your thoughts?

  • pbjpbj Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said: " It has probably been "improved" (conserved) since it was first auctioned."
    Just realized... the toning patterns on the two coins are obviously different. So starting with the premise "assuming it has been cleaned and retoned" --- cleaning - "market acceptable", toning within the last 12 years - isn't that a problem?

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 6:22PM

    Here is the best I can do bringing the new pictures down to size with the old pictures. I don't think the Doyle auction photos are clear enough and it's washed out as all can be and out of focus. Just look at the lack of details on the eagle's chest. The obverse Doyle pictures are so washed out you can't even make out the fold in her neck.

    If PCGS says the lineage traces back to the Doyle Auction - they must have had some proof besides an older subpar auction catalog picture.

    On the obverse, I can see:

    • The dot in the fields directly in line with Star #7 and the nose tip
    • Rim ding adjacent star #5
    • The dot inside the "U" of "PLURIBUS"
    • The toning pattern around star #8 after the "M" as well as most of the highs/lows of toning (old pics don't show colors at all, new ones at least match the shading) look between the cap and the "UM"
    • On reverse - Dots inside the "O" of "ONE"
    • Rim nick @ 10:00 (Thanks Ron)


    I mean - I see what the others are seeing too, for everything I can find that matches, I can find stuff that doesn't, but... I'm betting the Doyle auction pictures suck much more than PCGS didn't do their homework before certifying this and stating it is pedigreed as such that would make this the Doyle auction coin.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • halfhunterhalfhunter Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭

    "In other words, it is not some random “S” mint coin from the pocket of a sailor on shore leave."
    LMAO!

    Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set:
    1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
    Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
  • I see the exact same planchet mark on the reverse rim by the E of United on both photos.

  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 10,590 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Absolutely gorgeous, auction pictures shows no justice !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • goldengolden Posts: 5,605 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,551 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 8:38PM

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    Here is the best I can do bringing the new pictures down to size with the old pictures. I don't think the Doyle auction photos are clear enough and it's washed out as all can be and out of focus. Just look at the lack of details on the eagle's chest. The obverse Doyle pictures are so washed out you can't even make out the fold in her neck.

    If PCGS says the lineage traces back to the Doyle Auction - they must have had some proof besides an older subpar auction catalog picture.

    On the obverse, I can see:

    • The dot in the fields directly in line with Star #7 and the nose tip
    • Rim ding adjacent star #5
    • The dot inside the "U" of "PLURIBUS"
    • The toning pattern around star #8 after the "M" as well as most of the highs/lows of toning (old pics don't show colors at all, new ones at least match the shading) look between the cap and the "UM"
    • On reverse - Dots inside the "O" of "ONE"
    • Rim nick @ 10:00 (Thanks Ron)


    I mean - I see what the others are seeing too, for everything I can find that matches, I can find stuff that doesn't, but... I'm betting the Doyle auction pictures suck much more than PCGS didn't do their homework before certifying this and stating it is pedigreed as such that would make this the Doyle auction coin.

    LOOK AT THE RIM NICKS ON THE REVERSE. Easiest to see is over the "ED." Case closed!

  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Though the Doyle picture/scan/kodak instamatic image is purely awful it is pretty easy to tell these are the same coin. The strike is just amazing, though that is not a tell they are the same coin. The strike is far better than the previously shown presentation coin (John Roberts has good pics of this coin and maybe someday he will update what messy desk posted). The die line pattern is obvious in both pics, there are a few markers that are obvious and the toning is the same in both pics. This is not new color, and plain as day the patterns are the same, just inverted in the PCGS pic due to how they shoot the coin, so what is dark in one turns lighter in the other and vice versa.

    The specimen strike is just amazing. I blows the presentation coin out of the water. I really hope it gets put on display at some show in the future as I would love to see the coin in hand.

    Congrats to the owner, you have a beast. PCGS does not hand out SP grades, so I am sure there was a lot behind the scenes to make this coin happen.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you have owned any proof Morgans, this is what they look like. It is a special strike to my eye. Had to be struck twice.

  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 3,965 ✭✭✭

    @StrikeOutXXX said:

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    They are the same coin though. The graded piece today's articles refer to and the pictures I linked to in the OP traces the pedigree back to that auction. The pics are subpar by today's standards, but they do blow up a tiny bit, but they are the same coin.

    Doyle Auction Catalog Pic:

    I am 99% sure they are not the same coin.

    23 years old. Lurking and learning since 2010.
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    They are the same coin though. The graded piece today's articles refer to and the pictures I linked to in the OP traces the pedigree back to that auction. The pics are subpar by today's standards, but they do blow up a tiny bit, but they are the same coin.

    Doyle Auction Catalog Pic:

    I am 99% sure they are not the same coin.

    They are the same coin. Don't let images fool you on this one.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 15,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Teaser post: I have more information from a specialist on the 1878-S Long Nock series that will throw another wrench into this.

  • BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 3,965 ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 10:46PM

    @blu62vette said:

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:

    @BustHalfBrian said:

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    It is remarkable coin.

    With a little of Google's help, found these:

    August 2005 news article about the Damon collection going up for sale (assuming the pedigree in today's article is correct)
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/18/ln/FP508180341.html

    March 23, 2006 Doyle auction catalog:
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue
    Actual lot for this Dollar - estimate $300-$400 - shows unsold though
    https://doyle.com/auctions/06smd01-estate-of-samuel-mills-damon/catalogue/2596-1878-s-morgan-dollar

    If they were examined side by side in hand I think the OP would look substantially more like a Specimen than the coin in your last link. That coin just looks like a nice DMPL to me.

    They are the same coin though. The graded piece today's articles refer to and the pictures I linked to in the OP traces the pedigree back to that auction. The pics are subpar by today's standards, but they do blow up a tiny bit, but they are the same coin.

    Doyle Auction Catalog Pic:

    I am 99% sure they are not the same coin.

    They are the same coin. Don't let images fool you on this one.

    I see some similarities now after looking for 15 min on my big monitor. If you’re right then that’s pretty disappointing.

    23 years old. Lurking and learning since 2010.
  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭✭

    A beautiful thing it is.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Rim nick @ 10:00 (Thanks Ron)"

    Yer quite welcome. It's a fabulous coin!

  • 1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 3,555 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    The engraved piece carry their own credentials. The one pictured, while a very nice coin, is nothign special, and certainly not a "specimen" or any other imaginary creature.

    The assorted verbiage in the articles is entirely speculative -- much like a flamboyant auction description that ends with "No returns permitted...."

    I have not studied engraved coins but this coin looks to have had the details cut in. Makes it look like a fabulous strike but when compared with what they say is the same coin from several years ago its surprising how much stronger it looks and even the color has been enhanced. Are these coins market acceptable? Do you think the graders are being buffaloed ?

    "If you truly love rare coins then you might feel like I do...which is...F the doctors!" homerunhall

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    If you have owned any proof Morgans, this is what they look like. It is a special strike to my eye. Had to be struck twice.

    I'll let @RogerB chime in, but I thought proof Morgans were struck only once but using higher pressure and a medal press.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the image on the right is a glamour shot. The image on the left looks more realistic. Am I the only one who doesn't think this is anything special or deserving of a special designation? It looks like an early strike to be sure, but it looks to be well within the normal range of coinage.

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018 1:44AM

    @RogerB said:
    Bologna.

    This kind of silliness happens in every hobby. Maybe more so in coin collecting since it has been subject to many decades of misrepresentation, falsehood and blatant profiteering.

    About 15 years ago there were grand pronouncements about a "new pattern" for the 1938 five-cent coin being discovered. It was positively asserted by numismatic experts (several of whom are still about) that this was a long-lost design by James Fraser. That the piece had all the characteristics of Fraser's work and was obviously a very, very valuable, and unique piece.

    I suspected the story was complete hokum and that the "experts" had done no meaningful research except to open their mouths and close their minds. A visit to the Smithsonian and check of coin-like materials they had, turned up a model of the identical design -- by Anthony de Francisci. It was his 1938 nickel reverse design that the mighty "numismatic experts" claimed was by Fraser. In addition, the "new pattern" was an electrotype made to show the design a coin-size - not a die struck pattern at all. Little more was heard - except tree frogs and the scuttle of embarrassed numismatic "artistic style experts."

    All that can be done is to suggest - again and again - that the TPGs and their minions do full and complete, factual research before these amazing pronouncements are made public.....and to remind collectors that the US Mints were not in the habit of making special coins - that's why they mad proofs at Philadelphia. (Early coins off new dies will look very nice - but that applies to EVERY change of dies and is completely within a normal range of appearance.)

    Any chance is it your opinion that the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel (The Walton Specimen) that was determined to be authentic by a group of "experts" (and which had previously been deemed not genuine) is among the "grand pronouncements" to which you refer?

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