USNAF Slab FRAUD

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

My last topic about this was very quickly removed and not sure why. I would contact a MOD to ask but not sure how to do that either.

I am not going to post a link (I didn't in my first post) to the CoinCommunity thread but its there and very long. The fraud by this guy starts to get exposed about page 2. He is now acting like a cornered rat after he tried to change his name. He is active on Facebook as well.

These are (for now) removed from Ebay but he will probably try and list them again.

JBK

I was wondering where that thread went. I don't recall - did you name names? That might have been the issue.

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@JBK said:
I was wondering where that thread went. I don't recall - did you name names? That might have been the issue.

Define name names. I can't see it but I think I listed the names he was using on Facebook but those are public and he uses multiple names. I even mentioned his uses multiple names.

Gluggo

Got a link I don't use facebook.

JBK

@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:

@JBK said:
I was wondering where that thread went. I don't recall - did you name names? That might have been the issue.

Define name names. I can't see it but I think I listed the names he was using on Facebook but those are public and he uses multiple names. I even mentioned his uses multiple names.

Well, pending or potential legal action, discussing the crime and guilty party by name..... A big service to collectors but potential liability to our host, but I am just guessing.

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@Gluggo said:
Got a link I don't use facebook.

Am I allowed to post it?

BStrauss3

Especially as the thread at CCF petered out with - at best - inconsistent results, let's not feed the troll...

Timbuk3

Interesting !!!

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

...thanks for getting me over to CC...apparently I’ve been giving them $3 a month for 5 years now...wish I had one of those USNAF slabs to at least show for it though

astrorat

The USNAF slabs are not an invention of 2018. I have known of these slabs for several years and have even purchased one from Mike Kittle. Not sure what 'scam' our new member (Sheldon Overton Baby ... did you know your initials are SOB?) is 'outing,' but I did notice the listings on eBay with a claim by the seller of having over 40 of these. I was really surprised to see the several USNAF sample slabs (but did not bid on them).

Here is one style (there are a few different certificate and seal styles) of the USNAF slabs:

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@astrorat said:
The USNAF slabs are not an invention of 2018. I have known of these slabs for several years and have even purchased one from Mike Kittle. Not sure what 'scam' our new member (Sheldon Overton Baby ... did you know your initials are SOB?) is 'outing,' but I did notice the listings on eBay with a claim by the seller of having over 40 of these. I was really surprised to see the several USNAF sample slabs (but did not bid on them).

Here is one style (there are a few different certificate and seal styles) of the USNAF slabs:

Yes and sadly this is all a very well orchestrated scam. These are being made by a guy.

It was a little sketchy when I realized it seemed to be the same guy selling these for years. What caught my eye was he was on Facebook acting like he just recently stumbled on these but that was not the same story he had used years ago.

Why would somebody lie about where they acquiring these?

He started posting these on Ebay and they were removed and he had another make shift account ready to go to sell them on there.

I was 99% sure this was fraud. I can't find any evidence this USNAF made slabs. Somebody said they may have made cases but I see no evidence it made any actual holders.

So if you read the forum I posed as a dealer on Facebook and message this guy. I said I thought idiots at coin shows would gobble these up. Dumb suckers.

He agreed.

So I then went and began negotiating with him because he only sells online but I could sell these at shows. He saw a new avenue to sell. **So he began negotiating with me about me providing coins and he would put them in USNAF slabs. **We discussed quantity and timelines for him to do it. When we got down to numbers he wanted me to make first move.

So on the forum he didn't know it was me. He originally said in that forum that I was lying and that he never did that. I told him that I had turned the chat logs over Postal Inspectors he changed his story that he was just goofing around and role-playing. As I said before he got caught and changed to the To-Catch-A-Predator defense: "Well yeah I had those explicit chats but I was just joking around. It wasn't real."

He then changed his name from Bryan Watkins to Garrett Conner after the thread exposed him which is funny considering I had posted earlier that Postal Inspectors said they did't think Bryan Watkins was his real name.

Sorry this is a scam and a good one. Even Kittle feel for it.

Imagine I make up my own slab. I get an artificially toned Franklin and put it in my make-believe slab. Nobody but an idiot buys it.

BUTTT if I can make one that you believe is from some organization in 1987 suddenly that becomes a collectible defunct slab. Bam I can sell it all day for $250 or more (which is what he has been doing).

A brilliant scam.

jmlanzaf

It is not, in my opinion, much of a scam to put your own seal of approval on a coin. Now, if the dates are being faked, that's a bit of dishonesty. You may be right that the whole point is to get someone to think that they've stumbled across an old slab from a defunct grading service that applied the "old standard". But, it's a pretty low level fraud.

There are all kinds of "slabs" out there and I think "scam" overstates the fraud. The only thing separating the "fake" slabs from NGC/PCGS is the guarantee that the latter provides. There's SEGS, NNC, Littleton and all kinds of other independent folks assigning numerical grades to coins with an official but worthless seal on them. Is a Littleton 65 the same as a PCGS 65? I know it may be close, definitely much closer than most SEGS and NNC 65s. [Although a dealer I know just got a SEGS XF45 into a PCGS AU50 holder.] Would you accuse Littleton of a scam because they seal a coin in plastic with MS-65 on it?

I've also seen private coin dealers with their own slabs that have their own grades on them. Is that a scam?

So, we are down to the dates?

astrorat

You claim this is a scam and this person has been doing it for years, correct? What proof do you have that USNAF never certified coins and put them into slabs (which are not slabs, but Capital Plastics style holders with edge seals)?

If it's a scam, then that is important to know for those of us who collect 'classic' slabs.

How do you account for the newspaper ad placed in the May 14, 1987 issue of The Orange County Register for 'Sunken Treasure' coins? The ad states, "Each coin is accompanied by a serialized certificate of authenticity and appraisal from the diving supervisor and the United States Numismatic Arts Foundation. Each is packaged individually in a classic crystal acrylic container to protect it's history and your investment." This is the ad posted to the thread on the CCF.

This description certainly sounds like the USNAF style slabs being offered.

koynekwest

I personally think a 1-100 point grading scale, similar to what's done with stamps, makes more sense than the Sheldon scale. I would structure it differently than what the subject of the thread has done, for one thing in five point increments. But I'm sure it would be abused and it would eventually turn into 100 different grades.

thefinn

Scam? No. Not anymore than any other TPG.

U1chicago

@astrorat or @BStrauss3 do either of you know why these slabs were being bid up over $200?
Scam or no scam, I found the whole episode odd. The person had three listed on ebay and in the description it said the guy had 40+ in his collection. That doesn't seem to be the type of slab that would bring such high premiums?

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@astrorat said:
You claim this is a scam and this person has been doing it for years, correct? What proof do you have that USNAF never certified coins and put them into slabs (which are not slabs, but Capital Plastics style holders with edge seals)?

If it's a scam, then that is important to know for those of us who collect 'classic' slabs.

How do you account for the newspaper ad placed in the May 14, 1987 issue of The Orange County Register for 'Sunken Treasure' coins? The ad states, "Each coin is accompanied by a serialized certificate of authenticity and appraisal from the diving supervisor and the United States Numismatic Arts Foundation. Each is packaged individually in a classic crystal acrylic container to protect it's history and your investment." This is the ad posted to the thread on the CCF.

This description certainly sounds like the USNAF style slabs being offered.

Yet after all these years they only appeared recently by a person who has multiple ebay accounts, uses multiple names, creates multiple stories where he got the slabs, oh and here is the kicker......discussed a plan to place coins a dealer (or what he thought was a dealer) inside USNAF slabs.

You think he has a time machine maybe?

astrorat

@U1chicago said:
@astrorat or @BStrauss3 do either of you know why these slabs were being bid up over $200?
Scam or no scam, I found the whole episode odd. The person had three listed on ebay and in the description it said the guy had 40+ in his collection. That doesn't seem to be the type of slab that would bring such high premiums?

If I remember correctly, earlier eBay listings did not have the "40 slabs" comment. It is feasible that a collector may see one of these as a 'buy it now since I hardly see them' type of purchase. That may, in the collector's mind, warrant a high price. The 'samples' sold for strong money, but it was surprising to see a few.

astrorat

@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:

@astrorat said:
You claim this is a scam and this person has been doing it for years, correct? What proof do you have that USNAF never certified coins and put them into slabs (which are not slabs, but Capital Plastics style holders with edge seals)?

If it's a scam, then that is important to know for those of us who collect 'classic' slabs.

How do you account for the newspaper ad placed in the May 14, 1987 issue of The Orange County Register for 'Sunken Treasure' coins? The ad states, "Each coin is accompanied by a serialized certificate of authenticity and appraisal from the diving supervisor and the United States Numismatic Arts Foundation. Each is packaged individually in a classic crystal acrylic container to protect it's history and your investment." This is the ad posted to the thread on the CCF.

This description certainly sounds like the USNAF style slabs being offered.

Yet after all these years they only appeared recently by a person who has multiple ebay accounts, uses multiple names, creates multiple stories where he got the slabs, oh and here is the kicker......discussed a plan to place coins a dealer (or what he thought was a dealer) inside USNAF slabs.

You think he has a time machine maybe?

You still didn't answer the questions. First, what proof do you have he is running a scam, other than his 'evasive' behavior? Second, how do you account for the ad from the 1987 newspaper that offered coins in USNAF slabs?

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@astrorat said:

@U1chicago said:
@astrorat or @BStrauss3 do either of you know why these slabs were being bid up over $200?
Scam or no scam, I found the whole episode odd. The person had three listed on ebay and in the description it said the guy had 40+ in his collection. That doesn't seem to be the type of slab that would bring such high premiums?

If I remember correctly, earlier eBay listings did not have the "40 slabs" comment. It is feasible that a collector may see one of these as a 'buy it now since I hardly see them' type of purchase. That may, in the collector's mind, warrant a high price. The 'samples' sold for strong money, but it was surprising to see a few.

Because he sells a few at a time and then goes quite and stats up again.

This time he got caught. Ebay removed them so he had to use other accounts. Now its blown. Now that I am after him his entire fraud is blowing up and he is getting antsy. It was a very desperate move to change his name and location after the thread on CC came out but he knew that he had to do something.

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@astrorat said:

@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:

@astrorat said:
You claim this is a scam and this person has been doing it for years, correct? What proof do you have that USNAF never certified coins and put them into slabs (which are not slabs, but Capital Plastics style holders with edge seals)?

If it's a scam, then that is important to know for those of us who collect 'classic' slabs.

How do you account for the newspaper ad placed in the May 14, 1987 issue of The Orange County Register for 'Sunken Treasure' coins? The ad states, "Each coin is accompanied by a serialized certificate of authenticity and appraisal from the diving supervisor and the United States Numismatic Arts Foundation. Each is packaged individually in a classic crystal acrylic container to protect it's history and your investment." This is the ad posted to the thread on the CCF.

This description certainly sounds like the USNAF style slabs being offered.

Yet after all these years they only appeared recently by a person who has multiple ebay accounts, uses multiple names, creates multiple stories where he got the slabs, oh and here is the kicker......discussed a plan to place coins a dealer (or what he thought was a dealer) inside USNAF slabs.

You think he has a time machine maybe?

You still didn't answer the questions. First, what proof do you have he is running a scam, other than his 'evasive' behavior? Second, how do you account for the ad from the 1987 newspaper that offered coins in USNAF slabs?

Sir or ma'am are you reading?

He got caught.

1) He was using multiple Ebay accounts

2) He uses multiple names

**3) As was detailed on the CC thread and paraphrased on me on this very thread you are responding to: I posed as a dealer on Facebook. (At that time he was using the name Bryan Watkins). I told him I was a dealer and I thought his little scheme was clever and I negotiated with him that I could sell these at shows. He then discussed with me about how I could provide coins and he could PUT THEM INSIDE UNSAF slabs. We negotiated price (got to $160) and even how long it would take him.

When he started getting flak he found the CC thread and didn't realize I was the person posing as a dealer on Facebook. He originally said that I was lying but then he admitted the conversation did happen but he was just goofing around because we all know that negotiating in a conspiracy to commit fraud is just standard goofing around.**

He THEN got nervous and changed his name and info from Bryan Watkins to Garrett Connor. Even though he has changed it the Facebook link (hilariously) still has his name in the link to his profile. Link here:

https://facebook.com/bryan.watkins.9655

U1chicago

@astrorat said:

@U1chicago said:
@astrorat or @BStrauss3 do either of you know why these slabs were being bid up over $200?
Scam or no scam, I found the whole episode odd. The person had three listed on ebay and in the description it said the guy had 40+ in his collection. That doesn't seem to be the type of slab that would bring such high premiums?

If I remember correctly, earlier eBay listings did not have the "40 slabs" comment. It is feasible that a collector may see one of these as a 'buy it now since I hardly see them' type of purchase. That may, in the collector's mind, warrant a high price. The 'samples' sold for strong money, but it was surprising to see a few.

I can definitely understand the buy it now or never see it again mentality, but there were also 3 concurrent auctions (before they were taken down) and all were well above $100. They were all different coins, so bidders may have wanted a few examples and were bidding on all.

This whole thing is too strange. I see how someone could fake the slabs. It's actually quite a clever business model (find some obscure company that did exist but little is known and create some modern "replica" certificates/holders). I don't see clear evidence either confirming or denying the authenticity of these slabs. So we'll just have to watch what happens and see how the market handles the pricing.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

...after reading all the various threads and opinions for the last 12 hours...I can confidently say that I’m going with the Time Machine theory brought up by the OP...it just makes the most cents

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

It is a very clever model.

BStrauss3

Interestingly you write much more coherently and maturely here than ATS. Over there I had you pegged as a 13 year old who forgot to take his adderall.

In for more popcorn

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@BStrauss3 said:
Interestingly you write much more coherently and maturely here than ATS. Over there I had you pegged as a 13 year old who forgot to take his adderall.

In for more popcorn

Is ATS CoinCommunity?

I assume so but on there I was on mobile and that guy's crap caught me at a high stress time of day.

JBK

I cans sympathize. My cell phone spellcheck must be set for another language. It is constantly "correcting" my small mistakes with gibberish and non-existant words.

Sonorandesertrat

@JBK said:
I cans sympathize. My cell phone spellcheck must be set for another language. It is constantly "correcting" my small mistakes with gibberish and non-existant words.

This is one of my pet peeves about spell checkers baked into computer/cell phone software.

BStrauss3

@JBK said:
I cans sympathize. My cell phone spellcheck must be set for another language. It is constantly "correcting" my small mistakes with gibberish and non-existant words.

She who must be obeyed calls it AutoCorrupt

Gluggo

@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:
>
He got caught.

1) He was using multiple Ebay accounts

2) He uses multiple names

>

https://facebook.com/bryan.watkins.9655

If this guy has one of these I would be interested in buying one. Your Facebook link does not work or he split?

This page isn't available
The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed

Is this the guy? His history of Ebay is only 4 But he holds a 100% feedback rating.

Seller information
lsco-0 (4 )

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAMPLE-SLAB-INCLUDED-FREE-2-for-1-offer-Unbelievably-RARE-sample-FREE/253797594914?hash=item3b1783f722:g:jU0AAOSw2vdbZjQR&_sacat=0&_nkw=USNAF+sample+slabs&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

Washingtoniana

when I return to this thread tomorrow morning, I expect nothing less than glorious coin forum drama

jmlanzaf

Hmmm....do you have any information about the Omega coins?

ECHOES

Namvet69

And this is why sobs story got yanked. Have a good day. Peace Roy

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

I think this guys desperate ramblings says it all.

Sonorandesertrat

This thread needs to be closed.

slider23

@Lspscoins said:
Why was that listing removed Overton baby? (Emphasis on baby!!) Must kill you to see someone interested in coins not in ngc or pcgs slabs? Maybe you can't afford one and that is what this is!!? Someone will provide answers and until then at least I know who the liar is!!! This story will be revealed

Your eBay listing was removed because you posted the grades on the slabs. eBay has a rule that only the grades on eBay approved slabs can be posted in the listing. Unless eBay closed your account, you should be able to list your slabs without grades.

How did you acquire the USNAF slabs? How many of the USNAF slabs do you have? Do you have any supporting documentation that the slabs are genuine?

Gluggo

@Lspscoins said:
All this information is being copied and made available at the page united states numismatic arts foundation on facebook. There is where I will cover all I can and be as transparent as possible. This has been stressful because there was quite a bit of interest yet my listing keep being removed by eBay. I suspect Overton baby! No proof so that is that but then again he does claim to set me up and I made this alleged deal with him...Lmfao! but he offers no record of our communication! Why? We did all communication by Facebook messenger. Let's please set the record straight!!!

Just so you know I never judge any body you got something you want to sell PM me I will buy it. Of course I want a good price. Now if your good name is getting trashed then I will help you get it back. Of course I am in Alaska but I am here for you. I like the above holders I think they look neat and I am a " buy the holder " type guy.
I don't care what people think about me I take care of me first! I am for " Make Gluggo Great Again First! "

Ok you have someone on your corner don't feel like your alone. Glug!

Gluggo

@Sonorandesertrat said:
This thread needs to be closed.

illini420

Just to clarify, the 1881-S Morgan Dollar that I bought/sold in the USNAF Slab was purchased by me several years ago from a long-time Southern California coin dealer who has been in the business for 40+ years. He put the coin in one of our local coin club auctions where I purchased it because I thought it was a neat piece of coin grading history and I also thought the coin was pretty nice too.

Not sure about any of the recent slabs and the samples that have popped up, but for what it's worth I'm 100% sure that the slab I sold was not put together in the last few years.

kittlecoins.com/Suf172.htm

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

Gluggo

Lspcoins I am glad your having a positive day. If you get a call from area code 907 that is Alaska that would more than likely be me. I will be calling you today. At the very least to say hello. I am at work right now trying to take care of a Refinery but I took a look at your web site it looks good!

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@Lspscoins said:
By the way my phone number is 6824076572. Message me please. I dont take phone calls from unknown numbers. Sheldon Overton baby believe me no one is running or hiding or getting antsy over your lies sir. I am right here still. Same place just a new day! Take care.

I saw you got mad on a coin group for more lies as you posted ranting and raving and forgot you told somebody else on a FB coin group you graded the USNAF coins with your "years of experience".

Oops!

You are now being removed from coin groups as you can't keep your story straight.

Very sad.

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@illini420 said:
Just to clarify, the 1881-S Morgan Dollar that I bought/sold in the USNAF Slab was purchased by me several years ago from a long-time Southern California coin dealer who has been in the business for 40+ years. He put the coin in one of our local coin club auctions where I purchased it because I thought it was a neat piece of coin grading history and I also thought the coin was pretty nice too.

Not sure about any of the recent slabs and the samples that have popped up, but for what it's worth I'm 100% sure that the slab I sold was not put together in the last few years.

kittlecoins.com/Suf172.htm

Sadly it was. Its not just me this guy admitted to building the sets himself its others. He is being removed from coin groups on Facebook as he is ranting and raving has gotten others to realize he has told conflicting stories.

He makes these himself.

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@Lspscoins said:
I just said "go f!#@ yourself to Richard Fox! You know the guy helping you discredit me. If I am a scammer why then am I providing a phone#?

Anybody can get a phone number.

It is just as easy to get a number as it is to change your name online. Btw you need to tell us who we are speaking to. Is this the personality that goes by Bryan Watkis or the personality that goes by Garrett Paul Connor?

U1chicago

Maybe this all is just an elaborate plan to sell these slabs for max money? The two posters fighting it out seem to be helping sales....very interesting.....

WoodenJefferson

Sheldon_Overton_Baby

@U1chicago said:
Maybe this all is just an elaborate plan to sell these slabs for max money? The two posters fighting it out seem to be helping sales....very interesting.....

No.

U1chicago

@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:

@U1chicago said:
Maybe this all is just an elaborate plan to sell these slabs for max money? The two posters fighting it out seem to be helping sales....very interesting.....

No.

That's what one would say if it was all part of the plan.

But in all seriousness, I'm skeptical of the price of these slabs whether they are real or not. And I'm a slab collector! To me it still appears something unusual is happening. There are some established holders with premiums (doily, regency, NGC Black, NGC white, white rattler, etc). This particular slab doesn't move the needle for me. Others are free to judge it for themselves.

WoodenJefferson

With the combined amount of knowledge here, you'd think someone would eventually step up and say, yes I remember this obscure West Coast company. Surely it had to have been a boiler room investement company flash in the pan.

Mark

I sort of feel like I just entered the twilight zone...