@CaptHenway said:
As one of many an Authenticator who has certified these in the past, I welcome the new research.
One big question: why so many different dies? I know one shows nice internal cuds. Did the dies keep failing, or was there a market for varieties?
If they were struck over a period of many years, die rust could have created the need for new dies.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I've never seen anything I'd consider die rust on one, but looking at the edges, a variety of castaing machines (or dies in those machines) were used, and they don't always match by variety. I think this suggests a bunch of different batches over time - it's certainly not consistent with one small experimental mint.
This would seem to be another argument for the medal hypothesis.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Are collectors paying big bucks for a Good Samaritan Shilling today? Eric Newman exposed this once-sought-after colonial piece as a nineteenth-century fantasy item.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@Regulated said:
I've never seen anything I'd consider die rust on one, but looking at the edges, a variety of castaing machines (or dies in those machines) were used, and they don't always match by variety. I think this suggests a bunch of different batches over time - it's certainly not consistent with one small experimental mint.
This would seem to be another argument for the medal hypothesis.
If a die sits on a shelf for years, it can go from zero rust to rusted beyond repair. In that case, you won't see evidence of the die rust on any coins.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
Are collectors paying big bucks for a Good Samaritan Shilling today? Eric Newman exposed this once-sought-after colonial piece as a nineteenth-century fantasy item.
They're quite salable, particularly since the services began grading them. I used to buy them for $1,500 or so and the last one I sold brought $4 - $5,000.
It's worth noting that nobody is saying that the Continental Dollar was struck as a monetary fantasy - the 18th century medal explication found in Sarah Sophia Banks's notebook doesn't suggest that the pieces were anything but exonumia, and SSB and Du Simitiere certainly seem to have understood them as non-monetary souvenir items.
Also, when I had the German almanac from 1784 translated by a PhD in German literature of the 18th/19th Century, she read it as "The second, which appears in the shape of a coin, is actually a copy of the paper money of Pennsylvania..."
While the book has been mentioned many, many times, the sense of the statement is generally ignored.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I never for a minute presumed that the Good Samaritan Shillings aren't marketable today (I even have an expertly made electrotype), but $5K is a far cry from what I view as 'big bucks'. The Good Samaritan Shilling is no longer in the Red Book, so will the Continental Dollar be reclassified too? I think that it will need to be moved to the Post-Colonial Issues section of the Red Book.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I think that it should be moved there, and eventually will, but the coin business is inherently conservative, and I wouldn't expect anything right away.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Steel coinage dies can develop rust within days if not protected. But, properly protected, they can sit on a shelf for decades and be in perfect condition.
Hypothetically speaking, would die rust seriously affect the desirability of a souvenir medal?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@mustangmanbob said:
So if some of these started coming in from China, would they need to be stamped Copy, as the "originals" are not United States Coins, therefore, it would seem the Chinese stuff would fall under English Law, as the So Called Dollars are English.
My 1 cent, as it is not worth 2 cents, these will always command a "high" price, because too many people with $$ paid a lot for them, and are too invested in them, to admit these are just some novelty toy, or fake, like the 1913 Nickle or others like it.
Crow is not on the menu at that level of $$.
You're right. These are a classic of US numismatics.
Early on, Montroville Dickeson, author of the “The American Numismatic Manual” (the first exhaustive work published on US Coins in 1859) wrote, "By whomever designed, this coin or medal unburdened the patriotic genius of some one, and it was eminently worthy of the glorious period whose date it bears."
Collectors are going to continue to love them - as a kid, the Continental Dollar was the one coin in The Red Book that I was desperate to own: it's design and the date fired my imagination.
The current research isn't about money, it's about knowing the truth, so that we can understand their place in history.
Hush up. I’m looking to drive the price down
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Regulated said:
I've never seen anything I'd consider die rust on one, but looking at the edges, a variety of castaing machines (or dies in those machines) were used, and they don't always match by variety. I think this suggests a bunch of different batches over time - it's certainly not consistent with one small experimental mint.
This would seem to be another argument for the medal hypothesis.
Is anything published on the edge varieties?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If there's anything meaningful, it's by Hodder, and I haven't seen it. I've collected every edge image I can and they're varied, without much rhyme or reason. I've found similar edges on European coins from a particular area, although I haven't hit a perfect match yet.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I always regarded the 1793 half cent and the Chain Cent the first American coinage, with the others being precursors (albeit important ones) ... but hey I'm a copper weenie so what do you expect?
It's always troubling to me when the story changes on a coin, medal or token. This has to have immediate consequences on the price of a Continental Cur(r)ency coin. Like @Regulated, I looked at that as the holy grail in the Red Book when I was a kid, and now that has definitely changed. I never obtained the great wealth necessary to purchase one, and thank God for that.
It also makes me weary about going after other pieces with cloudy pasts.
How do we all feel about the USA Bar Cent? I believe that also has been implied to have been struck overseas.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I have always liked these "Continental Dollars" since I first saw or heard about them. however, they are just too pricey, mainly because of demand. when I started collecting Exonumia I discovered I could own a legitimate COPY of the design which is nicely replicated, much rarer and has a documented history. thank you to Prof. Montroville Dickeson and Thomas Elder for issuing them and for the good Captains research on their origins. even that is still on-going thanks to the digital age, and it will only get better.
I wonder how much the current "Information Era" that we're in helped this new discovery?
@keets said:
I have always liked these "Continental Dollars" since I first saw or heard about them. however, they are just too pricey, mainly because of demand. when I started collecting Exonumia I discovered I could own a legitimate COPY of the design which is nicely replicated, much rarer and has a documented history. thank you to Prof. Montroville Dickeson and Thomas Elder for issuing them and for the good Captains research on their origins. even that is still on-going thanks to the digital age, and it will only get better.
I wonder how much the current "Information Era" that we're in helped this new discovery?
The digital age is largely responsible for this discovery - ready access to information previously only available at archives is astounding. Resources like the Newman Numismatic Portal are literally changing what it is to do research. Add to this the ability to communicate instantaneously with other researchers, and you have something very special brewing.
When Newman was writing his articles in the 1950s, in order to access some information, a researcher might have to take a train or airplane hundreds or thousands of miles from home, then dig through stacks of papers for hours to find a crumb. Today, I can sit in bed on a Saturday morning with a cup of coffee and access much of the same information in a matter of hours.
Add to that the benefit of high quality digital images (and developing technology in that area), and it's reasonable to predict that our understanding of coins and their history is going to undergo a revolutionary change in the next couple of decades.
On Saturday, new digital technology allowed me to compare the topology of three coins and measure minute, but significant differences between them. The result? Conclusive proof that the mint produced a special, experimental die midway through the production of one of the most popularly collected series in US numismatics. We are going to see big discoveries in the coming years, and that might make coins more interesting for people outside of our hobby, if we play our cards right.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
On Saturday, new digital technology allowed me to..........................
I know that 10-15 years ago when PhillyJoe was really active here he would make regular visits to look through the Mint archives. what he could uncover was very fascinating and I'm sure he pioneered a lot of what we're seeing brought to light today. I can't recall the time involved, but I remember in one post he talked about how difficult it was for him when he first started researching, sort of the proverbial needle in a haystack if he was looking for something specific. the Mint was disorderly in their record keeping or had a filing system that didn't make sense to him.
he said that after a period of really time consuming searching he figured out some shortcuts that really reduced his time.
think about it --- if all that information gets digitized, not only will it be easier for the average person to read but it'll be made soooooooooooo easy to search, word specific, almost a researchers dream come true. it makes me wonder, with all the speculation in another thread about computer grading is there the ability to scan a written document, translate/decipher it, spell check and digitize??? or am I dreaming??
It had better stories behind it in those days. I've not had any of them or the Fugios (due to restrikes) nor any of the unproven mint issues.
Same on the later date California fractional golds.
I live in the Greater Cleveland area and have seen a lot of counterfeit Bar Cents and Fractional Gold which were all locally made many years ago. the Bar Cents have all been too crude and easy to detect, the Fractionals are so abundant that we don't really even suspect they are real, don't pay much attention to them and have probably passed on a few genuine issues.
One auction obviously won't definitively prove a trend for prices, but there will be 4 new data points in a little less than a month in Stack's ANA auction. Here's a link to one of the lots where the "recent research" is even referenced in the lot description...https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-BIQZH
Way outside my numismatic budget, but it will be interesting to see what these lots bring and speculate on whether or not the "recent research" had any impact on the prices realized.
This may have been brought up above and likely elsewhere, but the obvious question that should have been asked from day one: if these were issued as or intended to be coins (i.e. patterns), why no denomination? Paper continental currency was denominated in dollars or fractions . Who decided these were "dollars" to begin with? Just saying, or what am I missing?
As a history buff and coin nut, I really WANTED these to be historically significant. Seems I was not alone.
@oldabeintx said:
This may have been brought up above and likely elsewhere, but the obvious question that should have been asked from day one: if these were issued as or intended to be coins (i.e. patterns), why no denomination? Paper continental currency was denominated in dollars or fractions . Who decided these were "dollars" to begin with? Just saying, or what am I missing?
As a history buff and coin nut, I really WANTED these to be historically significant. Seems I was not alone.
Early US silver and gold coins didn't show denominations. The coins were to be valued based on size, weight, and metal type based on the European style of coinage design.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Early US silver and gold coins didn't show denominations. The coins were to be valued based on size, weight, and metal type based on the European style of coinage design.
They will be like the Condor tokens with American subjects that are priced much higher, like the Kentucky piece. Price will come down, no doubt, but they will always be popular - just not as much.
The Continental Dollar narrative that seems to be passing out of vogue is that the base metal "coin" was fiat money. In order for fiat money to work, the denomination needs to be explicit - this is the very definition of fiat money: it derives its value by government decree. And in this case, there is no evidence anywhere of that decree, nor is there a stated value on the object in question.
Early US silver and gold coins didn't show denominations. The coins were to be valued based on size, weight, and metal type based on the European style of coinage design.
Coins of this era were essentially bullion items, and as such wouldn't really need denominations. A mixture of tin, lead, and antimony wouldn't be seen as an equivalent to silver, gold, or even copper, and would require an obvious explanation as to its worth. The only pewter currency-substitute that I can think of from this era in British North America would be the American Plantations Token which literally stated "VAL.24.PART.REAL".
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Values for late eighteenth-century medals pertaining to the American Revolution will always be substantial.
The tone of the articles was rather odd..... paternalistic and accusatory. I was wondering the whole time if the author had some personal ax to grind. True research should be offered up as unbiased factual information. Appropriate judgement will follow on its own.
I thought the articles in The Numismatist were objective and written assertively, the weakness of previous theories was explained, and contemporary evidence that had been suppressed for years was discussed in detail.
When the Sarah Sophia Banks information and article was discussed on the E-Sylum, and when someone re-surfaced the du Simitiere comment on the Continental pieces here and on the E-Sylum, there were several attempts to discredit these. Therefore some boldness by the authors was needed IMO to counter those attempts to put a spin on objective research.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
I think the advertisement from the period has shifted my thinking too. I hear more information is extant. I still think they are wonderful examples of early Americana nonetheless. The set Rob put together is really, really beyond amazing. How did the issue hold upat the ANA. My impression was they did ok.
@GoBust said:
I think the advertisement from the period has shifted my thinking too. I hear more information is extant. I still think they are wonderful examples of early Americana nonetheless. The set Rob put together is really, really beyond amazing. How did the issue hold upat the ANA. My impression was they did ok.
Rob's set is incredible. I had a great talk with him at the show, and he's genuinely interested in seeing where the research goes, and says that his only interest is in finding out what the truth is. If you know him, he's enthusiastic about research, and is doing some of the most interesting work that I know of where the 1792 patterns are concerned.
Looking at CoinFacts, there are no records for the coins sold at ANA, but the Stacks-Bowers archives show the MS63 selling at $93K and the MS62 at $75K, which seems like around a 30% drop. I expect that regardless of how these pieces are understood, they'll continue to bring relatively strong money just based upon their status as a classics.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Q. David Bowers wrote:
It seems that electronic treasure detectorists have found countless metal buttons, coins, and the like in various places in the United States from that era, but not a single metal Continental dollar. However, such coins were for sale as medals in London before 1790!
Is there a list of known sellers of these in the 1780s?
The earliest recorded seller in London was Matthew Young, who is perhaps best known for restriking the American Plantations Tokens sometime around 1828. If I am not mistaken, his father was dealing in coins in the 1780s, and he was by the 1790s, although the report of him selling Continental Dollars that I have read was in the 1830s.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated said:
The earliest recorded seller in London was Matthew Young, who is perhaps best known for restriking the American Plantations Tokens sometime around 1828. If I am not mistaken, his father was dealing in coins in the 1780s, and he was by the 1790s, although the report of him selling Continental Dollars that I have read was in the 1830s.
Good to know. The numismatic link to restrikes is interesting as it entails an association with a mint. Are these generally considered to originate from Young now?
It's interesting to imagine that some may have been struck by Young (especially because the American Plantations Tokens were struck in the same metal as Continental Dollars), but there's no evidence that's turned up yet for it.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated said:
It's interesting to imagine that some may have been struck by Young (especially because the American Plantations Tokens were struck in the same metal as Continental Dollars), but there's no evidence that's turned up yet for it.
If there's evidence that he was in possession of both and struck one, it seems at least plausible that he also had the other struck, absent any information to the contrary.
True, although I'd have expected him to have a bunch when he died, had that been the case. I predict that interesting bits of information about Continental Dollars will be popping up for years to come.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated said:
True, although I'd have expected him to have a bunch when he died, had that been the case. I predict that interesting bits of information about Continental Dollars will be popping up for years to come.
Did the holdings include any American Plantation Tokens or the dies?
I'll have to dig the catalogue out and look, although I'm not sure whether the coins would have ended up in the same sale (I think there were a total of 34 separate sales when he died).
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
So in the midst of this flurry of research, speculation, and reevaluation, including the aforementioned piece by Q. David Bowers, it's interesting to note that a pretty NGC MS63 pewter example closed at Stacks Bowers a couple of weeks back at $93,000:
@Namvet69 said:
The current research isn't about money, it's about knowing the truth, so that we can understand their place in history. Well said! Peace Roy
Agree. It would be great to know more of the history of these. Tracing these to Matthew Young is already a great accomplishment. It will be interesting to see how much more information can be recovered.
@Namvet69 said:
The current research isn't about money, it's about knowing the truth, so that we can understand their place in history. Well said! Peace Roy
Agree. It would be great to know more of the history of these. Tracing these to Matthew Young is already a great accomplishment. It will be interesting to see how much more information can be recovered.
I'm most interested in learning more about Elias Gervais, the German engraver who signed his dies "EG" and "EG F", and whose engraving style is incredibly similar to what we find on the Continental Dollar. We know that he was working in around Cologne in Germany until 1791, when he passed away. For a while, he worked with one of the Wyons, which could explain a possible link to Great Britain. I've seen coins that he engraved that had leaved edges that aren't dissimilar to the what we see on Continental Dollars. I'm working with German researchers to see what else we can uncover about him.
Here's one of his pieces, for those here who haven't seen his work:
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated said:
It's interesting to imagine that some may have been struck by Young (especially because the American Plantations Tokens were struck in the same metal as Continental Dollars), but there's no evidence that's turned up yet for it.
This calls for some metallurgical testing to look for similar trace elements.
As I suggested earlier, the number of dies known for the Continental "Dollar" may represent multiple strikings many years apart. However, if they were re-struck in the 1820's, I would expect this fact to have been known to collectors of the time.
I know some Washington pieces were struck in the 1820's. Is there any hint of a suggestion that those might have been made upon the occasion of the 50-year anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 1826? That sure would have been a great year to be re-striking 1776-dated American souvenirs!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
If they were struck over a period of many years, die rust could have created the need for new dies.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I've never seen anything I'd consider die rust on one, but looking at the edges, a variety of castaing machines (or dies in those machines) were used, and they don't always match by variety. I think this suggests a bunch of different batches over time - it's certainly not consistent with one small experimental mint.
This would seem to be another argument for the medal hypothesis.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Are collectors paying big bucks for a Good Samaritan Shilling today? Eric Newman exposed this once-sought-after colonial piece as a nineteenth-century fantasy item.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If a die sits on a shelf for years, it can go from zero rust to rusted beyond repair. In that case, you won't see evidence of the die rust on any coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
They're quite salable, particularly since the services began grading them. I used to buy them for $1,500 or so and the last one I sold brought $4 - $5,000.
It's worth noting that nobody is saying that the Continental Dollar was struck as a monetary fantasy - the 18th century medal explication found in Sarah Sophia Banks's notebook doesn't suggest that the pieces were anything but exonumia, and SSB and Du Simitiere certainly seem to have understood them as non-monetary souvenir items.
Also, when I had the German almanac from 1784 translated by a PhD in German literature of the 18th/19th Century, she read it as "The second, which appears in the shape of a coin, is actually a copy of the paper money of Pennsylvania..."
While the book has been mentioned many, many times, the sense of the statement is generally ignored.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I never for a minute presumed that the Good Samaritan Shillings aren't marketable today (I even have an expertly made electrotype), but $5K is a far cry from what I view as 'big bucks'. The Good Samaritan Shilling is no longer in the Red Book, so will the Continental Dollar be reclassified too? I think that it will need to be moved to the Post-Colonial Issues section of the Red Book.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I think that it should be moved there, and eventually will, but the coin business is inherently conservative, and I wouldn't expect anything right away.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Steel coinage dies can develop rust within days if not protected. But, properly protected, they can sit on a shelf for decades and be in perfect condition.
Hypothetically speaking, would die rust seriously affect the desirability of a souvenir medal?
I'd rather have one struck from fresh dies, myself, but I'm not sure whether I'm a decent bellwether for much of anything...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Hush up. I’m looking to drive the price down
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It would depend on the amount of rust.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Is anything published on the edge varieties?
If there's anything meaningful, it's by Hodder, and I haven't seen it. I've collected every edge image I can and they're varied, without much rhyme or reason. I've found similar edges on European coins from a particular area, although I haven't hit a perfect match yet.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Thanks.
I always regarded the 1793 half cent and the Chain Cent the first American coinage, with the others being precursors (albeit important ones) ... but hey I'm a copper weenie so what do you expect?
It's always troubling to me when the story changes on a coin, medal or token. This has to have immediate consequences on the price of a Continental Cur(r)ency coin. Like @Regulated, I looked at that as the holy grail in the Red Book when I was a kid, and now that has definitely changed. I never obtained the great wealth necessary to purchase one, and thank God for that.
It also makes me weary about going after other pieces with cloudy pasts.
How do we all feel about the USA Bar Cent? I believe that also has been implied to have been struck overseas.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I have always liked these "Continental Dollars" since I first saw or heard about them. however, they are just too pricey, mainly because of demand. when I started collecting Exonumia I discovered I could own a legitimate COPY of the design which is nicely replicated, much rarer and has a documented history. thank you to Prof. Montroville Dickeson and Thomas Elder for issuing them and for the good Captains research on their origins. even that is still on-going thanks to the digital age, and it will only get better.
I wonder how much the current "Information Era" that we're in helped this new discovery?
The digital age is largely responsible for this discovery - ready access to information previously only available at archives is astounding. Resources like the Newman Numismatic Portal are literally changing what it is to do research. Add to this the ability to communicate instantaneously with other researchers, and you have something very special brewing.
When Newman was writing his articles in the 1950s, in order to access some information, a researcher might have to take a train or airplane hundreds or thousands of miles from home, then dig through stacks of papers for hours to find a crumb. Today, I can sit in bed on a Saturday morning with a cup of coffee and access much of the same information in a matter of hours.
Add to that the benefit of high quality digital images (and developing technology in that area), and it's reasonable to predict that our understanding of coins and their history is going to undergo a revolutionary change in the next couple of decades.
On Saturday, new digital technology allowed me to compare the topology of three coins and measure minute, but significant differences between them. The result? Conclusive proof that the mint produced a special, experimental die midway through the production of one of the most popularly collected series in US numismatics. We are going to see big discoveries in the coming years, and that might make coins more interesting for people outside of our hobby, if we play our cards right.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
On Saturday, new digital technology allowed me to..........................
I know that 10-15 years ago when PhillyJoe was really active here he would make regular visits to look through the Mint archives. what he could uncover was very fascinating and I'm sure he pioneered a lot of what we're seeing brought to light today. I can't recall the time involved, but I remember in one post he talked about how difficult it was for him when he first started researching, sort of the proverbial needle in a haystack if he was looking for something specific. the Mint was disorderly in their record keeping or had a filing system that didn't make sense to him.
he said that after a period of really time consuming searching he figured out some shortcuts that really reduced his time.
think about it --- if all that information gets digitized, not only will it be easier for the average person to read but it'll be made soooooooooooo easy to search, word specific, almost a researchers dream come true. it makes me wonder, with all the speculation in another thread about computer grading is there the ability to scan a written document, translate/decipher it, spell check and digitize??? or am I dreaming??
The "Bar" Cent was also one of my "kid grails."
It had better stories behind it in those days. I've not had any of them or the Fugios (due to restrikes) nor any of the unproven mint issues.
Same on the later date California fractional golds.
Gettin' cautious in my dotage.
I live in the Greater Cleveland area and have seen a lot of counterfeit Bar Cents and Fractional Gold which were all locally made many years ago. the Bar Cents have all been too crude and easy to detect, the Fractionals are so abundant that we don't really even suspect they are real, don't pay much attention to them and have probably passed on a few genuine issues.
better safe than sorry.
One auction obviously won't definitively prove a trend for prices, but there will be 4 new data points in a little less than a month in Stack's ANA auction. Here's a link to one of the lots where the "recent research" is even referenced in the lot description...https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-BIQZH
Way outside my numismatic budget, but it will be interesting to see what these lots bring and speculate on whether or not the "recent research" had any impact on the prices realized.
^ The original green back ^
--Severian the Lame
This may have been brought up above and likely elsewhere, but the obvious question that should have been asked from day one: if these were issued as or intended to be coins (i.e. patterns), why no denomination? Paper continental currency was denominated in dollars or fractions . Who decided these were "dollars" to begin with? Just saying, or what am I missing?
As a history buff and coin nut, I really WANTED these to be historically significant. Seems I was not alone.
Early US silver and gold coins didn't show denominations. The coins were to be valued based on size, weight, and metal type based on the European style of coinage design.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When did the expression, "it's not worth a Continental" come into vogue? It may be that contemporary folks already knew that it wasn't currency.
I knew it would happen.
Aha, thanks. Senior moment.
They will be like the Condor tokens with American subjects that are priced much higher, like the Kentucky piece. Price will come down, no doubt, but they will always be popular - just not as much.
"Not worth a Continental" strikes again!
The Continental Dollar narrative that seems to be passing out of vogue is that the base metal "coin" was fiat money. In order for fiat money to work, the denomination needs to be explicit - this is the very definition of fiat money: it derives its value by government decree. And in this case, there is no evidence anywhere of that decree, nor is there a stated value on the object in question.
Coins of this era were essentially bullion items, and as such wouldn't really need denominations. A mixture of tin, lead, and antimony wouldn't be seen as an equivalent to silver, gold, or even copper, and would require an obvious explanation as to its worth. The only pewter currency-substitute that I can think of from this era in British North America would be the American Plantations Token which literally stated "VAL.24.PART.REAL".
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Values for late eighteenth-century medals pertaining to the American Revolution will always be substantial.
I thought the articles in The Numismatist were objective and written assertively, the weakness of previous theories was explained, and contemporary evidence that had been suppressed for years was discussed in detail.
When the Sarah Sophia Banks information and article was discussed on the E-Sylum, and when someone re-surfaced the du Simitiere comment on the Continental pieces here and on the E-Sylum, there were several attempts to discredit these. Therefore some boldness by the authors was needed IMO to counter those attempts to put a spin on objective research.
QDB is now writing about the changing narrative:
http://mintnewsblog.com/bowers-on-collecting-the-1776-continental-currency-dollar-revisited/
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I think the advertisement from the period has shifted my thinking too. I hear more information is extant. I still think they are wonderful examples of early Americana nonetheless. The set Rob put together is really, really beyond amazing. How did the issue hold upat the ANA. My impression was they did ok.
Rob's set is incredible. I had a great talk with him at the show, and he's genuinely interested in seeing where the research goes, and says that his only interest is in finding out what the truth is. If you know him, he's enthusiastic about research, and is doing some of the most interesting work that I know of where the 1792 patterns are concerned.
Looking at CoinFacts, there are no records for the coins sold at ANA, but the Stacks-Bowers archives show the MS63 selling at $93K and the MS62 at $75K, which seems like around a 30% drop. I expect that regardless of how these pieces are understood, they'll continue to bring relatively strong money just based upon their status as a classics.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Is there a list of known sellers of these in the 1780s?
The earliest recorded seller in London was Matthew Young, who is perhaps best known for restriking the American Plantations Tokens sometime around 1828. If I am not mistaken, his father was dealing in coins in the 1780s, and he was by the 1790s, although the report of him selling Continental Dollars that I have read was in the 1830s.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Good to know. The numismatic link to restrikes is interesting as it entails an association with a mint. Are these generally considered to originate from Young now?
It's interesting to imagine that some may have been struck by Young (especially because the American Plantations Tokens were struck in the same metal as Continental Dollars), but there's no evidence that's turned up yet for it.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
As an aside, I bought a facsimile of the catalogue for the Sotheby's sale of his holdings, and didn't find any Continental Dollars.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
If there's evidence that he was in possession of both and struck one, it seems at least plausible that he also had the other struck, absent any information to the contrary.
True, although I'd have expected him to have a bunch when he died, had that been the case. I predict that interesting bits of information about Continental Dollars will be popping up for years to come.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Did the holdings include any American Plantation Tokens or the dies?
I'll have to dig the catalogue out and look, although I'm not sure whether the coins would have ended up in the same sale (I think there were a total of 34 separate sales when he died).
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The current research isn't about money, it's about knowing the truth, so that we can understand their place in history. Well said! Peace Roy
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So in the midst of this flurry of research, speculation, and reevaluation, including the aforementioned piece by Q. David Bowers, it's interesting to note that a pretty NGC MS63 pewter example closed at Stacks Bowers a couple of weeks back at $93,000:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-BIQZH
--Severian the Lame
PCGS Pop shows 267 graded Continental Dollars with a Price Guide value of $22,000,000.00
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Agree. It would be great to know more of the history of these. Tracing these to Matthew Young is already a great accomplishment. It will be interesting to see how much more information can be recovered.
I'm most interested in learning more about Elias Gervais, the German engraver who signed his dies "EG" and "EG F", and whose engraving style is incredibly similar to what we find on the Continental Dollar. We know that he was working in around Cologne in Germany until 1791, when he passed away. For a while, he worked with one of the Wyons, which could explain a possible link to Great Britain. I've seen coins that he engraved that had leaved edges that aren't dissimilar to the what we see on Continental Dollars. I'm working with German researchers to see what else we can uncover about him.
Here's one of his pieces, for those here who haven't seen his work:
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
This calls for some metallurgical testing to look for similar trace elements.
As I suggested earlier, the number of dies known for the Continental "Dollar" may represent multiple strikings many years apart. However, if they were re-struck in the 1820's, I would expect this fact to have been known to collectors of the time.
I know some Washington pieces were struck in the 1820's. Is there any hint of a suggestion that those might have been made upon the occasion of the 50-year anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 1826? That sure would have been a great year to be re-striking 1776-dated American souvenirs!