LET US KNOW - DID YOUR NOTE CROSS OVER? PMG PCGS CGA RCGS

Starting a thread to help inform on what grading opinions the agencies have on notes. Personal opinions welcome too as grading is just an opinion, whether performed by an individual collector or professional agency.

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Comments

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:20AM

    There is embossing on this note

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:20AM

    Just back from PMG, the corresponding Mule

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:05AM

    $1 SC, same same

    .

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:19AM

    $5 SC A to Mule Change Over Pair back from PMG 2 months ago

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:12AM

    North Africa Star

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:14AM

    1934B 1934C
    Very light handling mark on the first note

    .

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 7:18AM

    Recent fp 86 back from PMG 2 months ago
    The seal does have that chunk spot on it

    .

  • TookybanditTookybandit Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭

    Very interesting! On these particular examples, I think I would've preferred to buy more notes vs. invest money to cross them. But that's what makes the hobby fun, there are so many avenues for us to travel on our journey. Thanks for sharing.

  • Each company has a slightly different way of grading. Not surprised at these results but in my experience notes from PMG usually drop lower once submitted to PCGS. You seem to have the opposite happen here.

  • Also let me know when you're ready to sell the $2 28D BA non mule.

  • @redsealusn said:
    Each company has a slightly different way of grading. Not surprised at these results but in my experience notes from PMG usually drop lower once submitted to PCGS. You seem to have the opposite happen here.

    I totally agree. Are you going to post the notes that came back with higher PMG grades? Thanks.

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018 12:31PM

    @redsealusn said:
    Each company has a slightly different way of grading. Not surprised at these results but in my experience notes from PMG usually drop lower once submitted to PCGS. You seem to have the opposite happen here.

    Agreed. 3 to 5 years ago I observed this exact same thing but since then have noticed an inverted trend.
    I Cross submitted these because I thought they would INCREASE in grade.

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭

    @teddysmith1952 said:

    @redsealusn said:
    Each company has a slightly different way of grading. Not surprised at these results but in my experience notes from PMG usually drop lower once submitted to PCGS. You seem to have the opposite happen here.

    I totally agree. Are you going to post the notes that came back with higher PMG grades? Thanks.

    Please feel free to post your cross over notes, more data is better

    @redsealusn said:
    Also let me know when you're ready to sell the $2 28D BA non mule.

    I have 7, what are you paying ?

  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 6,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice, thank you for sharing !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • @teddysmith1952 said:

    @redsealusn said:
    Each company has a slightly different way of grading. Not surprised at these results but in my experience notes from PMG usually drop lower once submitted to PCGS. You seem to have the opposite happen here.

    I totally agree. Are you going to post the notes that came back with higher PMG grades? Thanks.

    I sold some and didn't save the labels to show the difference.

  • @synchr said:

    @teddysmith1952 said:

    @redsealusn said:
    Each company has a slightly different way of grading. Not surprised at these results but in my experience notes from PMG usually drop lower once submitted to PCGS. You seem to have the opposite happen here.

    I totally agree. Are you going to post the notes that came back with higher PMG grades? Thanks.

    Please feel free to post your cross over notes, more data is better

    @redsealusn said:
    Also let me know when you're ready to sell the $2 28D BA non mule.

    I have 7, what are you paying ?

    For the VF 35 $1750. I currently have a PCGS 25 so looking for an upgrade.

  • mbwizkidmbwizkid Posts: 280 ✭✭✭

    I don’t have a lot of experience crossing notes, maybe a dozen or so.
    It’s been my experience that most notes cross equally from PCGS to PMG, or vise versa if in higher grades, but have found that PMG is a little stricter on mid-grade and lower grade notes.

    Three years back, I sent PMG four notes in CGA (new) holders, and every one of them came back with identical grades.

    AKA Steve in Tampa

  • gnatgnat Posts: 536 ✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2018 3:59PM

    I've crossed close to 200 PMG notes to PCGS (and some the other way or back) and own a lot more PMG notes that I haven't crossed. While this is a tiny sample, relative to the number of notes each service has graded, my observations are somewhat at variance with the examples mentioned above.

    Most, but certainly not all, notes were "CU" of some stripe. For most notes I buy, I try to get ones with good eye appeal or rarity.

    1. Bump Ups! For a few notes, I got a bump up in grade from PCGS - generally small bump (e.g., 55EPQ to a 58PPQ; 64 to 66PPQ (the best); 66EPQ to 67PPQ).

    2. Straight Crossed. Most notes crossed at the same grade. This is what you would both hope for and expect.

    3. Downgrades. Many more notes (but certainly not more than 15+/-%) got knocked down in grade rather than up. Typical of the downgrades were 66EPQ to 65PPQ or 65EPQ to 64PPQ. Variations that are to be expected.

    However, I got burned on several high grade (and in a couple cases higher dollar) notes that were significantly hit. The worst hits were a 64 that went to a 53 (ouch) and a 66EPQ that went to 53 (double ouch) - since re-crossed back to 66EPQ (Yeah).

    More typical were 66EPQ going to 58PPQ. This is to be expected for a certain percentage as one service may see (or think they see) something the other didn't. A slight fold or crimp may be the only difference between such grades.

    With all this said, I find both PMG and PCGS to be good, honest companies who offer a valuable service. They overwhelmingly get it right.

    The one comment that did not comport with my experience is that contrary to what was said, I find that PMG has often overgraded notes in the F15 to VF30 range. This may have changed in more recent times.

  • Thanks gnat. I've always valued your honest comments and experience in the hobby. I'm no longer active (sold my collection off several years ago) but still enjoy "lurking" around!

  • mbwizkidmbwizkid Posts: 280 ✭✭✭

    “With all this said, I find both PMG and PCGS to be good, honest companies who offer a valuable service. They overwhelmingly get it right.”

    100% agree !

    AKA Steve in Tampa

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2018 6:08AM

    @mbwizkid said:
    I don’t have a lot of experience crossing notes, maybe a dozen or so.
    It’s been my experience that most notes cross equally from PCGS to PMG, or vise versa if in higher grades, but have found that PMG is a little stricter on mid-grade and lower grade notes.

    Three years back, I sent PMG four notes in CGA (new) holders, and every one of them came back with identical grades.

    Agreed, the purpose of the thread is to show actual data points, examples of what has occurred. More data is better.
    There are a lot of opinions, always favortism with broad strokes, and we are all outspoken :) especially on such a controversial topic.
    But let's cut through that look at actual results without hyperbole.

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭

    It was this controversial post in the "Rooky needing advice" thread that really raised my eyebrow as a broad stroke with no data backing it up.

    @Tookybandit said:
    PMG notes often will not cross over at the same grade to PCGS Currency holders. At an AU range there will not generally be a massive swing from one brand to the other. However, PCGS Currncy tends to be more conservative...

  • mbwizkidmbwizkid Posts: 280 ✭✭✭

    In defense of Robert (Tookybandit), I believe this to be his opinion and he’s entitled to it.

    PCGS and PMG are world respected and regarded as paper money’s top tier grading services. Featured by all major auction houses, including Heritage, Stacks, Lyn Knight and eBay.
    It’s almost a Ford/Chevy or Coke/Pepsi comparison. Many collectors have registry sets at these two grading services, and many others do not or prefer not to have their notes graded at all.

    Buy the note, not the holder.

    AKA Steve in Tampa

  • synchrsynchr Posts: 715 ✭✭✭

    I respect Robert and always enjoy discussions, especially his enthusiasm. In this case he painted a broad stroke... so let's find out more using actual data.
    Surely folks get notes back and decide to submit them elsewhere :) Or is that too revealing, killing any market sales advantage?

  • KT5SilverKT5Silver Posts: 181 ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018 6:21PM

    Previously posted on Paper Money Forum site:
    Steve in Tampa-(mbwizkid on this site) my experience over the last 10 years is definitely at odds with your conclusions. I have sent nearly 100 small size notes to PCGS Currency that were previously in PMG holders. In addition I have viewed thousand of notes from each TPG. My findings are:

    • When it comes to lower grades (15-35) PMG is a mess and very inconsistent. Many of these notes would not cross and a significant number would drop more than one grade.
    • 60-64 graded notes are very similar between the two TPG’s.
    • PMG 64 no Q notes in old holders can be a home run. Until about 18 months any note that would have otherwise graded 64EPQ to 70EPQ that showed a minute as made cut in the bottom margin would grade 64 no Q without exception. Now some of those have been regraded and produced 1-5 point upgrades.
    • Nearly half of all 66EPQ’s will not cross at PCGS.
    • About 20% of all 67EPQ PMG OLD holdered notes would grade 68PPQ at PCGS. If you examine an old PMG pop report they simply would not grade (almost) any note over 67. In fact I would wager to say that over 90% of the notes PMG has graded in 68 plus have been graded in the last three years.
    • If you submit a large run of notes as part of a bulk submission to PMG the grade variance tends to minimize. I have seen 50 $1 SC that in my opinion graded 63EPQ-67EPQ, ALL (yes everyone last note) came back 65EPQ.

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  • Thanks KT5Silver. Seems synchr is yet to cross a PCGS note to PMG that has graded higher. Hummm. Makes a collector ponder........

  • My experience has been very similar to Kraig's (KT5Silver). As a PCGS registry set guy I've had to buy many PMG holdered notes to try and cross to PCGS to fill holes in my sets and it's been very typical for a PMG 65 or 66 to not even make a CU grade once submitted to PCGS. I have had a few PMG notes in the 35 to 50 range move up a few points at PCGS so it can go either way sometimes. PMG is absolutely inconsistent and often times much too generous in the fine 15 to VF 30 range.

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