@shish said:
I hope we can agree that CAC buys and sells coins, this has been public information since the inception of CAC.
I'm not sure why you think their opinions are not independent "CAC is a coin retailer, not an independent opinion." I'm convinced CAC opinions are independent from the grading services. If as you assert JA's options are not independent then please explain who or what his decision to approve or disapprove coins is dependent on.
We all understand that JA approves coins that meet his standards and that he is comfortable selling. Independent is defined as "free from outside control; not depending on another's authority" or "not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence."
It is independent of the grading service - maybe. Although it isn't clear to me how evolving standards at PCGS would effect evaluation at CAC. An MS65 today is not an MS65 in 1985. If an MS65 in 2025 is not the same as today, will CAC adjust accordingly or just refuse to sticker anything if the standard is more lenient?
More to the point, independent did not refer to PCGS but to CAC itself. If you hire a financial advisor and pay them $150 an hour, they give you an "independent" opinion because they are not selling you anything. If you consult a financial products seller, they may not charge you but they also don't give you an "independent" opinion because they are selling you a product.
In theory, PCGS opinion is independent as to grade as they aren't buying or selling the resulting product. You are only paying them for their "independent" opinion of grade. CAC's opinion is not independent as they are buying or selling the resulting product.
[Yes, yes, PCGS may have some conflicts of their own, but one entity at a time. ]
@Coinstartled said: @Coinstartled said:
I bought a coin this evening that JA deemed to be improperly graded by PCGS. In hand I wonder if I will be able to see if and where PCGS erred.
@tradedollarnut said:
Quit your **** stirring - you know darn well JA doesn’t deem any such thing
>
You seem to only focus on the overgraded.....my new coin
I doubt they erred at the time. Hard to make that assertion what with constantly changing standards.
But CAC is supposed to be the standard bearer of consistent grading. If PCGS got the 65 right in 1991 or so, should a green bean have not of been appropriate. Maybe you are correct in this case....PCGS got it right and CAC blew it.
We need a new CAC thread. Who wants to start it? LOL
It is an interesting question or really questions.
Suppose PCGS tightens up its standards such that a current MS65 becomes an MS64. What does CAC do?
Suppose PCGS loosens its standards such that a current MS65 becomes an MS66. What does CAC do?
If CAC standards are unchanging, then in Case #1, it will suddenly have to start stickering all the MS64 coins because they all used to be MS65. But, in that case, you'd have to know when the sticker was applied or you'd have MS64 CACs which were current MS64 Grade A and MS64 CACS which were old standard Grade A.
If CAC standards change with time also, you have a similar problem only probably worse. They would be stickering fewer coins, but you still have the problem of MS64 CAC meaning different things.
If PCGS loosens its standards such that an MS65 becomes an MS66, will CAC refuse to sticker any of the new coins? Will they sticker them under the new standard?
If CAC really intends their bean to mean an A or B coin for the assigned grade, that implies an evolving standard for the grading, doesn't it?
Depending on which way the standard evolves, doesn't the CAC either become more meaningful or completely irrelevant?
@derryb said:
Is it the standards that are changing or is it the opinion of those applying the standards that is changing?
What do you think? Informed folks who watch these things know the grading standards have changed! The longer they have been paying attention, and the more "conservative" their personal standards were, the bigger the change as time passed.
What follows? Well, you can either fight the obvious trend - usually with unwanted consequences (lose money, go out of business). OR, you can change continuously to stay current with the prevailing standards.
So to answer your question, BOTH the standards and those who apply them CHANGE over time.
I doubt they erred at the time. Hard to make that assertion what with constantly changing standards.
But CAC is supposed to be the standard bearer of consistent grading. If PCGS got the 65 right in 1991 or so, should a green bean have not of been appropriate. Maybe you are correct in this case....PCGS got it right and CAC blew it.
Of course, here is where the "conflict" plays out. CAC is only the standard bearer if they are an independent voice for grading. If they are a retailer, CAC is the standard bearer for their own profits and there is a difference.
For example, you can continue to hold the unchanging EAC grades for copper. And you can insist on not paying more than AU50 money for a coin that is now in an MS62 holder [see the grey sheet discussion on this]. But if you do so, you will not buy any coins and therefore not make any money. To make money, you need to be buying and selling into the current market.
Now, if you are CAC, you can certainly get a premium by only stickering EAC 60 or 61 coins that are in MS62 holders. But if the standards change, you need to adjust your buy/sell prices relative to the current market, not the unchanging EAC standards. If MS62 (EAC MS60) coins suddenly become MS63 (EAC MS60), then you either sticker fewer coins - and buy/sell less as a result - or you start stickering to the new standard so that you are still buying/selling the best available coins in the current market grade.
As a retailer - market grading rules. Which is FINE. But that also means that, contrary to what the JA enthusiasts are telling us on this thread, CAC is not upholding some ancient strict standard. It is simply pre-selecting coins it is willing to purchase, which is pretty much what any coin dealer does.
@derryb said:
Is it the standards that are changing or is it the opinion of those applying the standards that is changing?
What do you think? Informed folks who watch these things know the grading standards have changed! The longer they have been paying attention, and the more "conservative" their personal standards were, the bigger the change as time passed.
What follows? Well, you can either fight the obvious trend - usually with unwanted consequences (lose money, go out of business). OR, you can change continuously to stay current with the prevailing standards.
So to answer your question, BOTH the standards and those who apply them CHANGE over time.
Wanna buy my now obsolete PCGS "Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection," second edition, so that I can purchase a copy of the latest grading standards?
@derryb said:
Is it the standards that are changing or is it the opinion of those applying the standards that is changing?
What do you think? Informed folks who watch these things know the grading standards have changed! The longer they have been paying attention, and the more "conservative" their personal standards were, the bigger the change as time passed.
What follows? Well, you can either fight the obvious trend - usually with unwanted consequences (lose money, go out of business). OR, you can change continuously to stay current with the prevailing standards.
So to answer your question, BOTH the standards and those who apply them CHANGE over time.
I agree with this. But, where does that put CAC on grading standards? See my other posts.
@derryb said:
Is it the standards that are changing or is it the opinion of those applying the standards that is changing?
What do you think? Informed folks who watch these things know the grading standards have changed! The longer they have been paying attention, and the more "conservative" their personal standards were, the bigger the change as time passed.
What follows? Well, you can either fight the obvious trend - usually with unwanted consequences (lose money, go out of business). OR, you can change continuously to stay current with the prevailing standards.
So to answer your question, BOTH the standards and those who apply them CHANGE over time.
Wanna buy my now obsolete PCGS "Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection," second edition, so that I can purchase a copy of the latest grading standards?
LOL, I already have two copies of the first and second editions. While I take issue with some of the content they are great books and I highly recommend them for both dealers and collectors.
PS I don't think there is a book that reflects the "latest" grading standards completely. I recommend you buy the latest editions of the ANA Guide and Grading Coins by Photographs. The PCGS grading images are good too. Unfortunately, with a little time spent grading coins and actual study of coins already graded by the top two services you will discover that all the guides and Internet images just provide a jumping off point to help you refine your own subjective and personal standards.
PS If you know of a recently published grading guide, please let me know as I don't know of any book published that deals with grading that I don't already have. Wait, I don't have all the Whitman books on each coin series - yet.
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
CAC is a wholesaler, created to establish a trading network for CAC coins. That is a FACT.
That is only ONE service of CAC. First and foremost it is a GRADING COMPANY. The dealer aspect is a by-product of the grading. John has been a dealer for decades.
@saintguru said:
That is only ONE service of CAC. First and foremost it is a GRADING COMPANY. The dealer aspect is a by-product of the grading. John has been a dealer for decades.
You and the others can drink the Kool-Aid if you wish, but all of the chest thumping in the world from CAC fans does not change the reality of what the company is. It is NOT a grading company. In fact, it "certifies" less than half of the coins submitted to it, and by its own admission this includes tens of thousands of rejected coins that are wholesome and accurately graded pieces that are market acceptable. It does not consider raw coins; it only verifies coins that are graded by third party grading companies. CAC even uses the term third party grading services to refer to PCGS and NGC on its site, but refuses to apply that term to itself. There is no guarantee. Calling this a "grading company" fundamentally butchers the meaning of that term as it has been applied to the rare coin market. It is no more a grading company than any dealer who stickers his inventory or coins for others for that matter. Is Rick Snow now a grading service (i.e. Eagle Eye Sticker)? How about Rick Tomaska (i.e. Everest Sticker)? How about the guy on eBay that stickers his coins as "cheap" or "PQ?"
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
P.S. In addition to my other points, did you know that CAC actually loses money on stickering and by its own admission makes most of its money from trading CAC verified coins? That is bizarre coming from a purported "grading company." It also destroys the myth you repeat that "CAC doe not act primarily as a dealer." Money talks, and it is speaking loudly about the true nature of the company (not that there is anything wrong with it).
@Insider2 said: "BTY, the fact that there are no SPECIFIC grading standards expressed in books, newsprint, coin seminars and all over the different coin forums!"
@cameonut2011 said: "I'm pretty sure both NGC and PCGS published books containing standards PURPORTING to be those used by the grading services."
LOL Both of us have just proved we don't have a grasp of the English language. I should have written that there ARE PURPORTED grading standards all over and you should have used the word "SPECIFIC" in your reply. Nevertheless, you have correctly described the NGC and PCGS grading standards as being "purported." The word means to profess or claim something, often falsely!
If this starts to happen I would think that it would become apparent. I like when collectors/Investors take interest and also buy the product. To me it says they put the money where the mouth is. Anything can get out of hand and some folks get greedy, but we tend to see those folks in the headlines like Tampa Guy so I am not worried about it.
Simply put, if collectors are willing to pay more for a sticker, a label, a toning or whatever floats the boat good for them. It also helps out the rest of us. Keep the industry flushed with Cash.
I think that so many of these arguments would be avoided if CAC would just update their website. Seriously that thing looks like it came straight out of the early 2000's. They have not yet even updated the copyright at the bottom from 2017 and we are halfway through 2018.
What's worse is I am actually unable to find what a GOLD sticker means on their site. It's as if they are just relying on word-of-mouth spread of (mis)information. If someone can find it on their site, please link it here.
If CAC would just put MORE INFORMATION on their website and make it easy to find so many of these arguments would be avoided by just going to caccoin.com. It is so lacking right now that even going through it leaves users with questions.
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
I have to disagree- I was a shareholder at the formation of CAC. It was always stated that it was primarily a coin wholesaler and that the stickers were a means to an end... with the not so secondary goal of fighting gradeflation and coin doctoring.
Certainly, with its acceptance in the marketplace now, it could significantly raise rates on the stickering aspect and make more money if that was indeed the goal
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood.
Your 90% estimate may be correct and that is the problem. After more than a decade, this dominant player in the mid to upper tier of the market still leaves too many questions unanswered.
This forum is occupied by many veteran and certainly serious hobbyists and dealers. The same questions though come up often and rather than being addressed, we get boiler plate insults by a couple of the early investors in the venture.
TDN has teased us that perhaps JA has a floating criteria for assessing whether PCGS/NGC coins are appropriately graded. Rather than a follow up, we get cricket sounds.
Rather than riding the back of PCGS and NGC for another decade or two, JA ought to step up along with his moneyed mouthpieces and create a full service grading concern. His fans could have their raw coins graded on a one stop basis, eliminating the idiocy of shipping coins cross country more than once.
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
I have to disagree- I was a shareholder at the formation of CAC. It was always stated that it was primarily a coin wholesaler and that the stickers were a means to an end... with the not so secondary goal of fighting gradeflation and coin doctoring.
Certainly, with its acceptance in the marketplace now, it could significantly raise rates on the stickering aspect and make more money if that was indeed the goal
@Coinstartled said:
TDN has teased us that perhaps JA has a floating criteria for assessing whether PCGS/NGC coins are appropriately graded. Rather than a follow up, we get cricket sounds.
Where and when? I would like to see CAC start a full service company too.
I'd have some concerns if they bought previously certified coins behind Greysheet that their internal notes showed were shot significant upgrades, as their gold stickers are rare, and rarer still on coins that matter. I'm curious who is buying the coins they are selling and what the profit levels are both with them and the dealers who buy from them. Most numismatic companies are very confidential, for obvious reasons; honesty in business is furthered by transparency.
@Coinstartled said:
TDN has teased us that perhaps JA has a floating criteria for assessing whether PCGS/NGC coins are appropriately graded. Rather than a follow up, we get cricket sounds.
Where and when? I would like to see CAC start a full service company too.
Not a fan of CAC. I can honestly say I pay no attention to stickers on slabs, so it doesn't bother me at all. If I like the coin, and the price is right, I'll pull the trigger.
Good luck,
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
@Dave99B said:
Not a fan of CAC. I can honestly say I pay no attention to stickers on slabs, so it doesn't bother me at all. If I like the coin, and the price is right, I'll pull the trigger.
@Dave99B said:
Not a fan of CAC. I can honestly say I pay no attention to stickers on slabs, so it doesn't bother me at all. If I like the coin, and the price is right, I'll pull the trigger.
@Dave99B said:
Not a fan of CAC. I can honestly say I pay no attention to stickers on slabs, so it doesn't bother me at all. If I like the coin, and the price is right, I'll pull the trigger.
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
Simply not true. They make $15 million or so on stickers and $100 million on buying/selling coins and you call them primarily a "grading company"? Any way you slice it, they are primarily a coin dealer/market maker NOT a grading company.
I guess we should put your comment in the totally false category then?
@Dave99B said:
Not a fan of CAC. I can honestly say I pay no attention to stickers on slabs, so it doesn't bother me at all. If I like the coin, and the price is right, I'll pull the trigger.
Good luck,
Dave
The problem with this is that it's rather hard to determine the right market price without paying attention to the market. And the market does care about slabbing and stickering. You certainly can make up your own set of prices, but what do you base them on?
I stopped at a gold buyer's shop last week who had recently done a deal buying a lot of better date coins, some cac below Bluesheet then quickly sold them for cash for around Bluesheet. One of the coins was an MS66 better date Saint that Greysheets around $6500, another was a gem $10 Indian, MS65cac. The dealer didn't realize there was a huge spread between cac and non-cac with those. I told him he left a lot of money on the table. If dealers don't realize the premiums that cac coins are worth, they are undermining their own business.
I agree with everything said here. But I do think it is an important thing to note: CAC is a coin retailer, not an independent opinion. As such, as you say, they have no conflict of interest.
CAC is a coin wholesaler - selling to dealers and their networks, they do not sell retail to collectors they are not a coin retailer in how most in this buisness uses such a term.
Edited to add: I see this been stated since multiple times, I just did not read the billions of posts to find out......
I agree with everything said here. But I do think it is an important thing to note: CAC is a coin retailer, not an independent opinion. As such, as you say, they have no conflict of interest.
CAC is a coin wholesaler - selling to dealers and their networks, they do not sell retail to collectors they are not a coin retailer in how most in this buisness uses such a term.
Edited to add: I see this been stated since multiple times, I just did not read the billions of posts to find out......
Best, SH
Yes, that is true. They are primarily a wholesaler, although the distinction in the coin market is often blurred. However you want to phrase it, they are a coin seller not a grading company or certification company.
Comments
It is independent of the grading service - maybe. Although it isn't clear to me how evolving standards at PCGS would effect evaluation at CAC. An MS65 today is not an MS65 in 1985. If an MS65 in 2025 is not the same as today, will CAC adjust accordingly or just refuse to sticker anything if the standard is more lenient?
More to the point, independent did not refer to PCGS but to CAC itself. If you hire a financial advisor and pay them $150 an hour, they give you an "independent" opinion because they are not selling you anything. If you consult a financial products seller, they may not charge you but they also don't give you an "independent" opinion because they are selling you a product.
In theory, PCGS opinion is independent as to grade as they aren't buying or selling the resulting product. You are only paying them for their "independent" opinion of grade. CAC's opinion is not independent as they are buying or selling the resulting product.
[Yes, yes, PCGS may have some conflicts of their own, but one entity at a time.
]
You outbid me on that one! LOL
We need a new CAC thread. Who wants to start it? LOL
It is an interesting question or really questions.
If CAC standards are unchanging, then in Case #1, it will suddenly have to start stickering all the MS64 coins because they all used to be MS65. But, in that case, you'd have to know when the sticker was applied or you'd have MS64 CACs which were current MS64 Grade A and MS64 CACS which were old standard Grade A.
If CAC standards change with time also, you have a similar problem only probably worse. They would be stickering fewer coins, but you still have the problem of MS64 CAC meaning different things.
If PCGS loosens its standards such that an MS65 becomes an MS66, will CAC refuse to sticker any of the new coins? Will they sticker them under the new standard?
If CAC really intends their bean to mean an A or B coin for the assigned grade, that implies an evolving standard for the grading, doesn't it?
Depending on which way the standard evolves, doesn't the CAC either become more meaningful or completely irrelevant?
What do you think? Informed folks who watch these things know the grading standards have changed! The longer they have been paying attention, and the more "conservative" their personal standards were, the bigger the change as time passed.
What follows? Well, you can either fight the obvious trend - usually with unwanted consequences (lose money, go out of business). OR, you can change continuously to stay current with the prevailing standards.
So to answer your question, BOTH the standards and those who apply them CHANGE over time.
Of course, here is where the "conflict" plays out. CAC is only the standard bearer if they are an independent voice for grading. If they are a retailer, CAC is the standard bearer for their own profits and there is a difference.
For example, you can continue to hold the unchanging EAC grades for copper. And you can insist on not paying more than AU50 money for a coin that is now in an MS62 holder [see the grey sheet discussion on this]. But if you do so, you will not buy any coins and therefore not make any money. To make money, you need to be buying and selling into the current market.
Now, if you are CAC, you can certainly get a premium by only stickering EAC 60 or 61 coins that are in MS62 holders. But if the standards change, you need to adjust your buy/sell prices relative to the current market, not the unchanging EAC standards. If MS62 (EAC MS60) coins suddenly become MS63 (EAC MS60), then you either sticker fewer coins - and buy/sell less as a result - or you start stickering to the new standard so that you are still buying/selling the best available coins in the current market grade.
As a retailer - market grading rules. Which is FINE. But that also means that, contrary to what the JA enthusiasts are telling us on this thread, CAC is not upholding some ancient strict standard. It is simply pre-selecting coins it is willing to purchase, which is pretty much what any coin dealer does.
Wanna buy my now obsolete PCGS "Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection," second edition, so that I can purchase a copy of the latest grading standards?
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
I agree with this. But, where does that put CAC on grading standards? See my other posts.
LOL, I already have two copies of the first and second editions. While I take issue with some of the content they are great books and I highly recommend them for both dealers and collectors.
PS I don't think there is a book that reflects the "latest" grading standards completely. I recommend you buy the latest editions of the ANA Guide and Grading Coins by Photographs. The PCGS grading images are good too. Unfortunately, with a little time spent grading coins and actual study of coins already graded by the top two services you will discover that all the guides and Internet images just provide a jumping off point to help you refine your own subjective and personal standards.
PS If you know of a recently published grading guide, please let me know as I don't know of any book published that deals with grading that I don't already have. Wait, I don't have all the Whitman books on each coin series - yet.
If the "standards" are constantly changing then there is no standard.
Guidelines.
You ALMOST
got "best Answer!" Too bad you didn't post: "SINCE the "standards" are constantly changing then there is no standard."
BTW, the fact that there are NO SPECIFIC GRADING STANDARDS is expressed in books, newsprint, coin seminars and all over the different coin forums!
I'm pretty sure both NGC and PCGS published books containing standards purporting to be those used by the grading services.
guidelines?
We on CU should have some stickers printed that say, "Nice"
I'd pay big money for a "You Suck" sticker on all of my dreck.
another YAWN.
You people do more guessing that fact finding. 90% of the statements about CAC posted here are either totally false or misunderstood. CAC does not act primarily as a dealer. It's that they stand behind their grading enough to BUY their certified coins back....and often at premium prices.
CAC is a wholesaler, created to establish a trading network for CAC coins. That is a FACT.
That is only ONE service of CAC. First and foremost it is a GRADING COMPANY. The dealer aspect is a by-product of the grading. John has been a dealer for decades.
You and the others can drink the Kool-Aid if you wish, but all of the chest thumping in the world from CAC fans does not change the reality of what the company is. It is NOT a grading company. In fact, it "certifies" less than half of the coins submitted to it, and by its own admission this includes tens of thousands of rejected coins that are wholesome and accurately graded pieces that are market acceptable. It does not consider raw coins; it only verifies coins that are graded by third party grading companies. CAC even uses the term third party grading services to refer to PCGS and NGC on its site, but refuses to apply that term to itself. There is no guarantee. Calling this a "grading company" fundamentally butchers the meaning of that term as it has been applied to the rare coin market. It is no more a grading company than any dealer who stickers his inventory or coins for others for that matter. Is Rick Snow now a grading service (i.e. Eagle Eye Sticker)? How about Rick Tomaska (i.e. Everest Sticker)? How about the guy on eBay that stickers his coins as "cheap" or "PQ?"
P.S. In addition to my other points, did you know that CAC actually loses money on stickering and by its own admission makes most of its money from trading CAC verified coins? That is bizarre coming from a purported "grading company." It also destroys the myth you repeat that "CAC doe not act primarily as a dealer." Money talks, and it is speaking loudly about the true nature of the company (not that there is anything wrong with it).
@Insider2 said: "BTY, the fact that there are no SPECIFIC grading standards expressed in books, newsprint, coin seminars and all over the different coin forums!"
@cameonut2011 said: "I'm pretty sure both NGC and PCGS published books containing standards PURPORTING to be those used by the grading services."
LOL Both of us have just proved we don't have a grasp of the English language. I should have written that there ARE PURPORTED grading standards all over and you should have used the word "SPECIFIC" in your reply. Nevertheless, you have correctly described the NGC and PCGS grading standards as being "purported." The word means to profess or claim something, often falsely!
"Specificity" seems murky in all this.
As long as you buy the coin and not all the other decorations...……...you will be OK.
If this starts to happen I would think that it would become apparent. I like when collectors/Investors take interest and also buy the product. To me it says they put the money where the mouth is. Anything can get out of hand and some folks get greedy, but we tend to see those folks in the headlines like Tampa Guy so I am not worried about it.
Simply put, if collectors are willing to pay more for a sticker, a label, a toning or whatever floats the boat good for them. It also helps out the rest of us. Keep the industry flushed with Cash.
Too many eyes are on the prize.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I think that so many of these arguments would be avoided if CAC would just update their website. Seriously that thing looks like it came straight out of the early 2000's. They have not yet even updated the copyright at the bottom from 2017 and we are halfway through 2018.
What's worse is I am actually unable to find what a GOLD sticker means on their site. It's as if they are just relying on word-of-mouth spread of (mis)information. If someone can find it on their site, please link it here.
If CAC would just put MORE INFORMATION on their website and make it easy to find so many of these arguments would be avoided by just going to caccoin.com. It is so lacking right now that even going through it leaves users with questions.
Collector, occasional seller
I have to disagree- I was a shareholder at the formation of CAC. It was always stated that it was primarily a coin wholesaler and that the stickers were a means to an end... with the not so secondary goal of fighting gradeflation and coin doctoring.
Certainly, with its acceptance in the marketplace now, it could significantly raise rates on the stickering aspect and make more money if that was indeed the goal
Your 90% estimate may be correct and that is the problem. After more than a decade, this dominant player in the mid to upper tier of the market still leaves too many questions unanswered.
This forum is occupied by many veteran and certainly serious hobbyists and dealers. The same questions though come up often and rather than being addressed, we get boiler plate insults by a couple of the early investors in the venture.
TDN has teased us that perhaps JA has a floating criteria for assessing whether PCGS/NGC coins are appropriately graded. Rather than a follow up, we get cricket sounds.
Rather than riding the back of PCGS and NGC for another decade or two, JA ought to step up along with his moneyed mouthpieces and create a full service grading concern. His fans could have their raw coins graded on a one stop basis, eliminating the idiocy of shipping coins cross country more than once.
+1
Where and when? I would like to see CAC start a full service company too.
I'd have some concerns if they bought previously certified coins behind Greysheet that their internal notes showed were shot significant upgrades, as their gold stickers are rare, and rarer still on coins that matter. I'm curious who is buying the coins they are selling and what the profit levels are both with them and the dealers who buy from them. Most numismatic companies are very confidential, for obvious reasons; honesty in business is furthered by transparency.
"... honesty in business is furthered by transparency"
In the business sector of numismatics??? Won't happen. Not ever.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Go back a page. 2nd post from the bottom.
A "means to the end" can be a strange bedfellow.
What happened to the cac registry that the voice for legend and cac dangled at the start up by cac and folks loved the idea. 10 years or so wait what?
Not a fan of CAC. I can honestly say I pay no attention to stickers on slabs, so it doesn't bother me at all. If I like the coin, and the price is right, I'll pull the trigger.
Good luck,
Dave
Great post Dave, that's a novel idea. I like it.
This man is a gosh darn genius.
Don't quote me on that.
That has always been my regard towards CAC also.
No. Thanks. Next thread.
Simply not true. They make $15 million or so on stickers and $100 million on buying/selling coins and you call them primarily a "grading company"? Any way you slice it, they are primarily a coin dealer/market maker NOT a grading company.
I guess we should put your comment in the totally false category then?
The problem with this is that it's rather hard to determine the right market price without paying attention to the market. And the market does care about slabbing and stickering. You certainly can make up your own set of prices, but what do you base them on?
Maybe we should get a membership to CDN exchange and then we can see the bid/ask prices straight from CAC.
It may be blasphemy, but I pay little attention to the plastic either. Would I prefer PCGS? Yes. I prefer their holder.
Again, stickers are pretty and neat, but focus should always be on the little round metal disk!
Dave
+1
I stopped at a gold buyer's shop last week who had recently done a deal buying a lot of better date coins, some cac below Bluesheet then quickly sold them for cash for around Bluesheet. One of the coins was an MS66 better date Saint that Greysheets around $6500, another was a gem $10 Indian, MS65cac. The dealer didn't realize there was a huge spread between cac and non-cac with those. I told him he left a lot of money on the table. If dealers don't realize the premiums that cac coins are worth, they are undermining their own business.
They usually start on Thursdays, around the time of happy hour.
CAC is a coin wholesaler - selling to dealers and their networks, they do not sell retail to collectors they are not a coin retailer in how most in this buisness uses such a term.
Edited to add: I see this been stated since multiple times, I just did not read the billions of posts to find out......
Best, SH
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Yes, that is true. They are primarily a wholesaler, although the distinction in the coin market is often blurred. However you want to phrase it, they are a coin seller not a grading company or certification company.