@insider2 - I enjoyed the discussion, but I think I will bow out at this point as the thread is becoming an exchange between us on the evolution of coin grading and hyper-technical aspects that do not relate to the future of CAC and its effects on the hobby.
Ditto. I enjoy talking about grading theory & actual practice.
I just got a PM from a member to look at a Proof Barber coin on ebay in an old rattler. He asked me if it was "damaged." The coin only had some greenish and whitish stains but no damage and rather attractive. After I told him what I thought he said that CAC would not sticker it due to PVC.
@Insider2 said:
Ditto. I enjoy talking about grading theory & actual practice.
I just got a PM from a member to look at a Proof Barber coin on ebay in an old rattler. He asked me if it was "damaged." The coin only had some greenish and whitish stains but no damage and rather attractive. After I told him what I thought he said that CAC would not sticker it due to PVC.
PVC has always been a problem, and JA is great at finding every little speck of even inactive PVC. I think he can smell it from across the room. Anyway, that's why I rinse most of my stuff in acetone before submitting for grading anymore.
I'm still buying great coins that haven't been blessed by JA and CAC but I know what I'm doing and I know my series, as I've been at this game a long time. That being said, I hope that CAC continues, as I've always felt confident buying CAC coins and have agreed with the sticker most of the time. I think that, if JA finds a worthy successor, then they will continue, otherwise CAC coins will be a relic of the past and will be coveted just like gold-foiled NGC soap bars and PCGS Rattlers.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
I was originally against CAC. My mentor still is. However, the good has far outweighed the price fall out of unstickered coins in my opinion. One has to still make informed decisions as always. Every coin is basically unique and needs to be evaluated that way. Personally I rest a little easier knowing that John has seen and detected more monkied with coins then anyone I’m aware of. That is a huge reason why I’m pro CAC. Other experts go to him if they have a question. JA has seen it all, all day, everyday. If one doesn’t believe that then so be it.
Mark
Yup, what he said......... Keypoints - informed decisions, basically unique, rest a little easier
@cameonut2011 said:
It would be neat if DLRC would step up with Mr. Hansen's backing. They could create a competitor sticker which might make pricing even more competitive/higher for PQ coins and would create a group that could be logical successors. I'm not sure they would be interested though.
I still would not trust their images online even if they put their own sticker on the slab, that is the point with CAC, if you are viewing images of a coin online and it has a CAC sticker, there is a pretty good chance that the coin is what it should be for the grade with no hidden problems - well mostly....
@cameonut2011 said:
It would be neat if DLRC would step up with Mr. Hansen's backing. They could create a competitor sticker which might make pricing even more competitive/higher for PQ coins and would create a group that could be logical successors. I'm not sure they would be interested though.
I still would not trust their images online even if they put their own sticker on the slab, that is the point with CAC, if you are viewing images of a coin online and it has a CAC sticker, there is a pretty good chance that the coin is what it should be for the grade with no hidden problems - well mostly....
Best, SH
No disrespect to DLRC but I think he tried a coin grading service once. While I don't know the man, I've seen his "work." It was OK; however, no slight on him or his skills but IMHO, he would probably not be in the top 12 U.S. coin graders. I guess that JA has proven he is.
That said, if DLRC started a sticker service and paid fair prices to buy them back, I'm sure it would work IF CAC WAS NOT AROUND. Heck, if backed by deep pockets, I believe anyone who could grade commercially that BACKED THEIR OPINION with cash would find a place. It's like a dealer placing coins with folks only to be able to buy them back down the road. Isn't that what many do now w/o a sticker?
It seems the ability to detect ALL "monkeying" .....correctly and comprehensively... would need to have seen actual evidence and both "before" and "after."
And lots of times.
DLRC's grading service was DGS (Dominion Grading Service since they are in Virginia which is known as the Dominion State}. Many of the coins he slabbed were owned by his coin company but he guaranteed to buy his coins back at the slabbed grade. He bought out the slabbing equipment of PCI and his slabs only had new labels. From the reviews I've seen his coins were properly graded using then current industry standards. For some reason he got out of the grading business and sold all the slabbing equipment to someone else.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@topstuf said:
It seems the ability to detect ALL "monkeying" .....correctly and comprehensively... would need to have seen actual evidence and both "before" and "after."
And lots of times.
Not at all. While ALL "monkeying" means perfection and no human is perfect, you need to know what an original coin looks like. That, and the right equipment will leave only a few cases where you'll know the coin is not "original" but...
Trust me when I tell you there are numismatists around (some are probably skilled coin doctors) who can detect surface alterations that are virtually undetectable and others that are WWwwwaaayyy beyond what is "market acceptable."
LOL, you don't need to designate something most either don't see or don't care about.
@PerryHall said: "DLRC's grading service was DGS (Dominion Grading Service since they are in Virginia which is known as the Dominion State}... For some reason he got out of the grading business and sold all the slabbing equipment to someone else."
It's called stiff competition.
Decades ago I joked that we needed to start a spin off of the TPGS I worked for at the time. I called it the "You Slab It" grading company . Dealers send in their coins and say what grade they want. We would put it in a slab with the company name and the company grade. LOL. Back in the 80's, I felt something similar may be going on already.
@Insider2 said:
Stupid question out of ignorance...Do you need to be a CAC Club member to submit coins? What does the club offer? Perhaps CAC tries to weed out coins w/no chance of stickering. The answer may be on their website. Color me lazy and requesting help.
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
But that presumes he maintains control of the company. If he sells it or passes away, I'm not sure the successor would want to be hamstrung with a different sticker.
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
But that presumes he maintains control of the company. If he sells it or passes away, I'm not sure the successor would want to be hamstrung with a different sticker.
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
I took that as a joke from him. He will probably put a disagree on this like he does so often.
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
I took that as a joke from him. He will probably put a disagree on this like he does so often.
I took the designs as a joke, but I thought he was serious as to a new sticker. It would be the only logical solution for a transition plan IMHO. I hope he chimes in to clarify.
@Insider2 said:
Stupid question out of ignorance...Do you need to be a CAC Club member to submit coins? What does the club offer? Perhaps CAC tries to weed out coins w/no chance of stickering. The answer may be on their website. Color me lazy and requesting help.
You can't submit directly.
There has been a wait list for awhile but once you clear it you can submit directly ( assuming it does again). Many collectors submit directly.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Insider2 said:
Stupid question out of ignorance...Do you need to be a CAC Club member to submit coins? What does the club offer? Perhaps CAC tries to weed out coins w/no chance of stickering. The answer may be on their website. Color me lazy and requesting help.
You can't submit directly.
There has been a wait list for awhile but once you clear it you can submit directly ( assuming it does again). Many collectors submit directly.
m
I've been on the wait list for years. But "clearing the wait list" is what he's referring to as becoming a "member".
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
But that presumes he maintains control of the company. If he sells it or passes away, I'm not sure the successor would want to be hamstrung with a different sticker.
I believe to have more enjoyment in this hobby
one needs to learn to grade oneself and the general maxim of buying the coin not the holder is true.
That said the market bears or assigns a value to CAC stickered coins different that non CAC stickered coins.
If JA , who I met personally and I greatly admire
passes away, or retires , I think he should have
in place to close CAC down.
While I believe there are graders capable at his caliber they don't carry the same aura or have the same numismatic history as JA.
CAC would lose value under anyone else.
Closing down CAC with the JA legacy will only bolster existing CAC stickers coins in the marketplace.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@bidask said: "If JA , who I met personally and I greatly admire
passes away, or retires , I think he should have in place to close CAC down."
I disagree. If he retires he can draw a check and look in or not on the company. Recently, I heard that Burt of "Burt's Bees" died. The company is still rolling along and expanding. Why close down a good thing? If CAC were not doing a good job - one that folks think is necessary - someone else will come along and fill the need.
I cannot speak for JA but many of us really enjoy what we do. It is not work! I get paid to have fun, enjoy the challenge of sparing with folks trying to trick us, and the learning never stops. Coins I can never own are "mine" for the few days they are in the office and I get to see each one TWICE! I'm at the office over ten hours a day because I would rather be there than any place.
And something to think about... JA could do what he does until the day he dies because it takes less time to look at a coin in a slab that is graded by PCGS or NGC and say to yourself, I like it, I'd buy it than to start the evaluation from scratch. He has become the final, "finalizer" for many folks.
@Insider2 said: @bidask said: "If JA , who I met personally and I greatly admire
passes away, or retires , I think he should have in place to close CAC down."
I disagree. If he retires he can draw a check and look in or not on the company. Recently, I heard that Burt of "Burt's Bees" died. The company is still rolling along and expanding. Why close down a good thing? If CAC were not doing a good job - one that folks think is necessary - someone else will come along and fill the need.
I cannot speak for JA but many of us really enjoy what we do. It is not work! I get paid to have fun, enjoy the challenge of sparing with folks trying to trick us, and the learning never stops. Coins I can never own are "mine" for the few days they are in the office and I get to see each one TWICE! I'm at the office over ten hours a day because I would rather be there than any place.
And something to think about... JA could do what he does until the day he dies because it takes less time to look at a coin in a slab that is graded by PCGS or NGC and say to yourself, I like it, I'd buy it than to start the evaluation from scratch. He has become the final, "finalizer" for many folks.
That's my point. He is the final "finalizer".
Anyone else would not carry the same aura.
I do agree he could draw a check.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@jmlanzaf said:
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
But that presumes he maintains control of the company. If he sells it or passes away, I'm not sure the successor would want to be hamstrung with a different sticker.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
For some buyers it might be. Others may have planned on doing it anyway so it would not matter. Who knows the new buyer may even be stricter and his new sticker would even be more coveted. My only point is that there are ways to ensure certain standards upon a sale if the selling party insists.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
Half the people in here would immediately resubmit to get the new sticker . They would think that if they had an original green sticker with the new guy they might get a gold. Or if they acquired some new stickers their nuclear OCD would not allow them to place the different kinds near one another.
If he was going to either sell or quit, it seems to me that soon would be a terrific advantage.
For him.
I am amazed that a "consortium" hasn't been either started or in preliminary formation.
There are a few other experts who are capable and well financed.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
Half the people in here would immediately resubmit to get the new sticker . They would think that if they had an original green sticker with the new guy they might get a gold. Or if they acquired some new stickers their nuclear OCD would not allow them to place the different kinds near one another.
It would be the OGH, rattler game.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
Half the people in here would immediately resubmit to get the new sticker . They would think that if they had an original green sticker with the new guy they might get a gold. Or if they acquired some new stickers their nuclear OCD would not allow them to place the different kinds near one another.
@bidask said: "That's my point. He is the final "finalizer". Anyone else would not carry the same aura."
My point is that AT THIS POINT IN TIME he is the final finalizer. My claim is that there are many numismatists who could start a sticker company to police the market. They could start tomorrow and if they have the $$$$ to back it up, some MAY succeed even with CAC still in business. Example: Sorry Mr. Halperin. Mr. Halperin starts a sticker service and he ONLY stickers (complete with an offer to buy) coins that are "A" for the grade. The pays 2% or whatever over what JA would. Bingo, a very successful company crossing CAC coins + raw coins leading to further splintering of the market and further displeasure with the TPGS's. IMO, this star and plus "stuff" started as a result of CAC pressure on their product. This should be easy to prove by the date they were put in place.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
As the potential buyer, I should insist on retiring the green bean as my standards would be more strict. I should also make the color of my sticker GOLD with no need for a "higher" color.
@TheDukeK said:
Who's to say he hasn't retired.
He is not the only person that puts stickers on CAC coins.
There is a group of 2 or 3 that help with putting on CAC and always have been from my understanding.
John still finalizes every singje coin to my knowledge. He always did
m
This is what CAC told me themselves not a week ago. "John looks at every coin."
I'll add this thought. JA and the folks he employs should be grateful for the respect their product get's from many collectors/dealers and for all the free advertising including what the haters generate. LOL.
@Insider2 said:
I'll add this thought. JA and the folks he employs should be grateful for the respect their product get's from many collectors/dealers and for all the free advertising including what the haters generate. LOL.
In this country haters generate more revenue than the lovers.....
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
For some buyers it might be. Others may have planned on doing it anyway so it would not matter. Who knows the new buyer may even be stricter and his new sticker would even be more coveted. My only point is that there are ways to ensure certain standards upon a sale if the selling party insists.
For ALL buyers it would be - or at least should be. If it is mandatory that the sticker is new, it would be based on the premise that the quality/value of the sticker would be changing. Since the old stickers would provide zero revenue to the new owner, and a new sticker is all but a sign saying "don't submit here", you've seriously impaired the value of the brand.
I also think, pursuant to the original question, this is really one of the things to contemplate. The scenarios presented in the OP both end up being positive to the brand. It is at least worth considering the possibility that post-JA, the brand/sticker becomes all but worthless due to continued stickering with lower standards.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
As the potential buyer, I should insist on retiring the green bean as my standards would be more strict. I should also make the color of my sticker GOLD with no need for a "higher" color.
Then you are wasting your money. There is no value in saddling yourself with the inferior CAC brand. The only value in buying CAC is because you think the brand has value. If your standards are higher, you are saddling yourself with a lower standard brand.
It would be equivalent to PCGS buying ANACS and then only using PCGS slabs. Why would they need ANACS? For warehouse space? It would effectively value the brand at zero.
Comments
@insider2 - I enjoyed the discussion, but I think I will bow out at this point as the thread is becoming an exchange between us on the evolution of coin grading and hyper-technical aspects that do not relate to the future of CAC and its effects on the hobby.
Ditto. I enjoy talking about grading theory & actual practice.
I just got a PM from a member to look at a Proof Barber coin on ebay in an old rattler. He asked me if it was "damaged." The coin only had some greenish and whitish stains but no damage and rather attractive. After I told him what I thought he said that CAC would not sticker it due to PVC.
PVC has always been a problem, and JA is great at finding every little speck of even inactive PVC. I think he can smell it from across the room.
Anyway, that's why I rinse most of my stuff in acetone before submitting for grading anymore.
@ColonelJessup
Was the sticker you posted real or something photo-shopped as a joke?
Via JA's smart-phone. They've had them as a contingency since 2012
Thorny CAC threads..
Are no aberration..
Certain to continue..
Through the 4th of July vacation!
Burma Shave!
I'm still buying great coins that haven't been blessed by JA and CAC but I know what I'm doing and I know my series, as I've been at this game a long time. That being said, I hope that CAC continues, as I've always felt confident buying CAC coins and have agreed with the sticker most of the time. I think that, if JA finds a worthy successor, then they will continue, otherwise CAC coins will be a relic of the past and will be coveted just like gold-foiled NGC soap bars and PCGS Rattlers.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Yup, what he said......... Keypoints - informed decisions, basically unique, rest a little easier
I still would not trust their images online even if they put their own sticker on the slab, that is the point with CAC, if you are viewing images of a coin online and it has a CAC sticker, there is a pretty good chance that the coin is what it should be for the grade with no hidden problems - well mostly....
Best, SH
No disrespect to DLRC but I think he tried a coin grading service once. While I don't know the man, I've seen his "work." It was OK; however, no slight on him or his skills but IMHO, he would probably not be in the top 12 U.S. coin graders. I guess that JA has proven he is.
That said, if DLRC started a sticker service and paid fair prices to buy them back, I'm sure it would work IF CAC WAS NOT AROUND. Heck, if backed by deep pockets, I believe anyone who could grade commercially that BACKED THEIR OPINION with cash would find a place. It's like a dealer placing coins with folks only to be able to buy them back down the road. Isn't that what many do now w/o a sticker?
It seems the ability to detect ALL "monkeying" .....correctly and comprehensively... would need to have seen actual evidence and both "before" and "after."
And lots of times.
DLRC's grading service was DGS (Dominion Grading Service since they are in Virginia which is known as the Dominion State}. Many of the coins he slabbed were owned by his coin company but he guaranteed to buy his coins back at the slabbed grade. He bought out the slabbing equipment of PCI and his slabs only had new labels. From the reviews I've seen his coins were properly graded using then current industry standards. For some reason he got out of the grading business and sold all the slabbing equipment to someone else.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I notice on JA's site he now shows "CAC" and "CAC 2' Any difference other than the hologram?
Not at all. While ALL "monkeying" means perfection and no human is perfect, you need to know what an original coin looks like. That, and the right equipment will leave only a few cases where you'll know the coin is not "original" but...
Trust me when I tell you there are numismatists around (some are probably skilled coin doctors) who can detect surface alterations that are virtually undetectable and others that are WWwwwaaayyy beyond what is "market acceptable."
OH BOY! Some new DESIGNATIONS !!!!
LOL, you don't need to designate something most either don't see or don't care about.
@PerryHall said: "DLRC's grading service was DGS (Dominion Grading Service since they are in Virginia which is known as the Dominion State}... For some reason he got out of the grading business and sold all the slabbing equipment to someone else."
It's called stiff competition.
Decades ago I joked that we needed to start a spin off of the TPGS I worked for at the time. I called it the "You Slab It" grading company . Dealers send in their coins and say what grade they want. We would put it in a slab with the company name and the company grade. LOL. Back in the 80's, I felt something similar may be going on already.
Unintended consequences are especially quite common in the business world.
Think "disruptor".
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/carolinehoward/2013/03/27/you-say-innovator-i-say-disruptor-whats-the-difference/amp/
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
OGH series TWO sticker!
Where? What?
You can't submit directly.
And if JA retires and CAC continues stickering while using the same style stickers....??? Wouldn't CAC crash as you couldn't know who had stickered the coin?
Yes. The post from coloneljessup clarified that JA has a new sticker planned.
But that presumes he maintains control of the company. If he sells it or passes away, I'm not sure the successor would want to be hamstrung with a different sticker.
It will be like game of thrones
sells it or passes away, I'm not sure the successor would want to be hamstrung with a different sticker.
Only with less sex.
nobody wants to see that
I took that as a joke from him. He will probably put a disagree on this like he does so often.
I took the designs as a joke, but I thought he was serious as to a new sticker. It would be the only logical solution for a transition plan IMHO. I hope he chimes in to clarify.
There has been a wait list for awhile but once you clear it you can submit directly ( assuming it does again). Many collectors submit directly.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I've been on the wait list for years. But "clearing the wait list" is what he's referring to as becoming a "member".
1900 $1 Lafayette Commemorative MS64 PCGS/CAC
1936 50C Long Island Commemorative MS67+ PCGS/CAC2
I guess few have noticed this. Above are examples from JA's site...first is "CAC" second is "CAC2"
I believe to have more enjoyment in this hobby
one needs to learn to grade oneself and the general maxim of buying the coin not the holder is true.
That said the market bears or assigns a value to CAC stickered coins different that non CAC stickered coins.
If JA , who I met personally and I greatly admire
passes away, or retires , I think he should have
in place to close CAC down.
While I believe there are graders capable at his caliber they don't carry the same aura or have the same numismatic history as JA.
CAC would lose value under anyone else.
Closing down CAC with the JA legacy will only bolster existing CAC stickers coins in the marketplace.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@bidask said: "If JA , who I met personally and I greatly admire
passes away, or retires , I think he should have in place to close CAC down."
I disagree. If he retires he can draw a check and look in or not on the company. Recently, I heard that Burt of "Burt's Bees" died. The company is still rolling along and expanding. Why close down a good thing? If CAC were not doing a good job - one that folks think is necessary - someone else will come along and fill the need.
I cannot speak for JA but many of us really enjoy what we do. It is not work! I get paid to have fun, enjoy the challenge of sparing with folks trying to trick us, and the learning never stops. Coins I can never own are "mine" for the few days they are in the office and I get to see each one TWICE! I'm at the office over ten hours a day because I would rather be there than any place.
And something to think about... JA could do what he does until the day he dies because it takes less time to look at a coin in a slab that is graded by PCGS or NGC and say to yourself, I like it, I'd buy it than to start the evaluation from scratch.
He has become the final, "finalizer" for many folks.
That's my point. He is the final "finalizer".
Anyone else would not carry the same aura.
I do agree he could draw a check.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Any sale agreement could make it an explicit condition that the sticker must be able to be distinguished from the current sticker.
As a potential buyer, that would be a deal killer for me.
For some buyers it might be. Others may have planned on doing it anyway so it would not matter. Who knows the new buyer may even be stricter and his new sticker would even be more coveted. My only point is that there are ways to ensure certain standards upon a sale if the selling party insists.
Half the people in here would immediately resubmit to get the new sticker . They would think that if they had an original green sticker with the new guy they might get a gold. Or if they acquired some new stickers their nuclear OCD would not allow them to place the different kinds near one another.
If he was going to either sell or quit, it seems to me that soon would be a terrific advantage.
For him.
I am amazed that a "consortium" hasn't been either started or in preliminary formation.
There are a few other experts who are capable and well financed.
It would be the OGH, rattler game.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
shear the same sheep over and over again
.
@bidask said: "That's my point. He is the final "finalizer". Anyone else would not carry the same aura."
My point is that AT THIS POINT IN TIME he is the final finalizer. My claim is that there are many numismatists who could start a sticker company to police the market. They could start tomorrow and if they have the $$$$ to back it up, some MAY succeed even with CAC still in business. Example: Sorry Mr. Halperin. Mr. Halperin starts a sticker service and he ONLY stickers (complete with an offer to buy) coins that are "A" for the grade. The pays 2% or whatever over what JA would. Bingo, a very successful company crossing CAC coins + raw coins leading to further splintering of the market and further displeasure with the TPGS's. IMO, this star and plus "stuff" started as a result of CAC pressure on their product. This should be easy to prove by the date they were put in place.
As the potential buyer, I should insist on retiring the green bean as my standards would be more strict. I should also make the color of my sticker GOLD with no need for a "higher" color.
I don't see a difference
This is what CAC told me themselves not a week ago. "John looks at every coin."
Kind regards,
George
I'll add this thought. JA and the folks he employs should be grateful for the respect their product get's from many collectors/dealers and for all the free advertising including what the haters generate. LOL.
In this country haters generate more revenue than the lovers.....
Don't quote me on that.
For ALL buyers it would be - or at least should be. If it is mandatory that the sticker is new, it would be based on the premise that the quality/value of the sticker would be changing. Since the old stickers would provide zero revenue to the new owner, and a new sticker is all but a sign saying "don't submit here", you've seriously impaired the value of the brand.
I also think, pursuant to the original question, this is really one of the things to contemplate. The scenarios presented in the OP both end up being positive to the brand. It is at least worth considering the possibility that post-JA, the brand/sticker becomes all but worthless due to continued stickering with lower standards.
Then you are wasting your money. There is no value in saddling yourself with the inferior CAC brand. The only value in buying CAC is because you think the brand has value. If your standards are higher, you are saddling yourself with a lower standard brand.
It would be equivalent to PCGS buying ANACS and then only using PCGS slabs. Why would they need ANACS? For warehouse space? It would effectively value the brand at zero.