I am wondering if the graders are thumbing their nose at CAC these days? CAC is really telling them they are either right or wrong, and those guys don't like to be told they are wrong!
CAC would not be the only ones telling them that they are wrong. When someone is told that they are wrong long enough, hopefully an epiphany will stimulate a change.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
I am wondering if the graders are thumbing their nose at CAC these days? CAC is really telling them they are either right or wrong, and those guys don't like to be told they are wrong!
It’s similar to crossing a NGC/CAC coin. The graders subconsciously don’t like to told what the coin should grade.
I am seeing many in Rattlers & Fatty's with much better eye appeal. Is it better to take a chance on CAC so the slabs are preserved?
@Wabbit2313 said
In conclusion: It is a bad time to crack and send right now. It is also time to stop believing Rattlers and Fatty's are under graded. By today's standards, they are not, and OGH coins are generally over-graded by the same standards. Coins graded from two to five years ago? Many will be an automatic downgrade if cracked.
So many opinions here are from those who never send coins in. You here them say, "by today's standards" all the time. That comment is such foolishness. From a dude (me) who sends in hundreds of coins, and at the expensive grading tiers, today's standards are equivalent to the old Rattler days.
@ianrussell said:
We submitted a few hundred coins for clients at Long Beach - and grading was about as expected. Nice coins got good grades. Borderline didn't.
Ian
When submitting a few hundred coins at a single show, you better be thrown a bone once in a while.
@Paradisefound said:
I am seeing many in Rattlers & Fatty's with much better eye appeal. Is it better to take a chance on CAC so the slabs are preserved?
@Wabbit2313 said
In conclusion: It is a bad time to crack and send right now. It is also time to stop believing Rattlers and Fatty's are under graded. By today's standards, they are not, and OGH coins are generally over-graded by the same standards. Coins graded from two to five years ago? Many will be an automatic downgrade if cracked.
So many opinions here are from those who never send coins in. You here them say, "by today's standards" all the time. That comment is such foolishness. From a dude (me) who sends in hundreds of coins, and at the expensive grading tiers, today's standards are equivalent to the old Rattler days.
God help the Sotheby's buyers.
Oh, I own my fair share of old holders, including the largest Redfield collection known to mankind!
In the end, it does not matter if you think you know how to grade-its what the grading services feel like that day or team is working together. For a while (years ago) PCGS was more friendly at LB since it was their show. Now the door is just closed.
I don't have a problem grading, but if a coin was a 67, 3 years ago, a 66, 3 months ago, and a 65 today, I have a problem, and so do many others
for most collectors PCGS is simply ranking a specific coin vs. all other same date/mm coins while also assigning a market price to it. what happens is twofold: when they are "tight" collectors feel as though they have lost money, when they are loose collectors feel like coins are too expensive. further, when collectors send a coin in during the loose period they never complain about their grades they get, only the ones everyone else gets. when they send a coin during the tight period they complain about their grades and buy everyone else's cheaper coins.
it's maddening.
I tend to not play the crack-out game, the CAC game and the complain about the loose and tight grading game. however, I do complain when "Show Grading" takes precedence over my "Factory" submission. human nature seems to dictate that we are uneasy about what we can't control.
FWIW, I viewed the Sotheby’s sale and didn’t see anywhere near as much upgrade potential as other bidders obviously did. So I have to wonder if the problem is that the bidders were loose, not that pcgs is tight. I’m not saying that PCGS doesn’t have their loose and tight days, just that they’re not the only ones.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
FWIW, I viewed the Sotheby’s sale and didn’t see anywhere near as much upgrade potential as other bidders obviously did. So I have to wonder if the problem is that the bidders were loose, not that pcgs is tight. I’m not saying that PCGS doesn’t have their loose and tight days, just that they’re not the only ones.
I didn't send My Sotheby's coins in, these were a mix of everything but. I do have a Sotheby's Fatty GOLD CAC, and am thinking of cracking it just to see what happens. I am not sure I could handle the pain if it came back the same grade, or worse. (Which is certainly a possibility!!!)
I respect Wabbit as a collector and believe him when he says he knows how to grade.
I believe that PCGS only hires competent graders and uses very experienced finalizers.
I tend to not put much credence in Conspiracy Theories.
I believe that Morgan Dollars are one of the easiest coins to accurately grade.
I believe that PCGS graders have examined and graded multiples of coins compared to what Wabbit has seen.
I believe the two graders and finalizer at PCGS more accurately grade Morgan Dollars than Wabbit.
I DO NOT believe that there are times when PCGS intentionally grades either more/less strict intentionally.
I believe that if you want to send a coin to PCGS with a CAC sticker to influence their grading that you are mistaken.
I believe that as the pool of coins seen by PCGS increases that the assessment of them becomes more focused.
I believe that John Albanese is a good grader.
I believe that John Albanese makes mistakes when grading coins.
I believe that it is possible to more accurately grade a coin when it is raw vs. when it is encapsulated.
@fiftysevener said:
Just curious is show grading usually more strict ? With grading sets not accessible would the tough ones grade well or fall short ? Is there a chance of contamination in the holder ? Are they the same graders and verifiers as normally used ? I would be careful with my proof coppers wouldn't you !
LOL on Grading Sets! These guys are pros, and their best are at the shows. That is where the easy/real money is made for PCGS. Especially this show!
I think I have made one Show submission, it was to NGC and I joined as a member at the same time back around 2003 at Baltimore. I also think it is a good thing for PCGS, does it work well for submitters??
If PCGS began to feel challenged by CAC because they felt CAC was diluting the brand value of PCGS then there are a number of efforts that could be undertaken to address this. PCGS has enjoyed and benefited from the perception that their product is better than NGC. If PCGS is suddenly second to CAC, then non CAC PCGS coins can become de facto second tier coins.
To mitigate this approach, you could begin a program where by you made a conscious decision to conservatively grade coins so that almost all would CAC if submitted. This does not mean that there would be notably more gold CAC stickers awarded, because that would have the same negative impact to PCGS as many of their coins not stickering at all. But having the large majority of your freshly graded coins receiving green stickers,over time, would create the perception among collectors that there was either no need to seek a CAC sticker (because PCGS coins regularly sticker) or would increase the selling price of coins that you graded because stickerseekers would see them as more of a lock.
Maybe I imagined it but about a year and a half ago I thought I noticed a huge line n the sand on gold coins from PCGS at 64+ with many getting green beans. It seemed like PCGS had upped their standard on what a gold coinhadtobeto hit 65.
Just my thoughts and observations. If your observations are different, thatsuitsmejust fine.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I don't have a problem grading, but if a coin was a 67, 3 years ago, a 66, 3 months ago, and a 65 today, I have a problem, and so do many others!
@keets said:
panex, PCGS IS better than NGC and CAC doesn't grade coins, they evaluate a coin in a capsule with a stated grade on the insert.
also, and it is a trivial point which highlights America's sloppy decline, but PCGS didn't "up" anything, they raised or increased it.
Trivial point returned: Sentences are begun with capital letters. Sloppy.
Trivial point #2: Contractions are frowned upon.
Trivial point #3: Per JA, a gold stickered coin would exceed CAC standards for the grade assigned, a fact that could not be determined unless CAC grades the coin and compares their evaluation to the TPG assigned grade.
Save your trivial corrections for those who are interested. Oh, and be correct next time. Thanks
sentences by me aren't started with capital letters and I love contractions, I just don't like lazy English. tell me, what flavor is the CAC Koolaide??
I agree with Ian. The grading was average...nothing great. Grading has certainly been tighter for a while, but I haven't experienced coins that I would grade 67 coming back 65. I did buy some lots from Sotheby's and they were tight but not ridiculous. I think I can give a good representative opinion. I submit a huge range of coins in different denominations and metals in various grade ranges and spend over five figures every month with our hosts. The people who can truly grade consistently will weather the "storm", and make enough coins to offset the coins that don't work right away.
@panexpoguy said:
If PCGS began to feel challenged by CAC because they felt CAC was diluting the brand value of PCGS then there are a number of efforts that could be undertaken to address this.
@cnncoins said:
I did buy some lots from Sotheby's and they were tight but not ridiculous.
Please elaborate. Were these submitted at this show?
-Did you crack them?
-Reconsider?
-Clean them up a bit?
The only real way to tell how you did on the Sotheby's coins is to know which coins you bought, and what they regraded to, which I imagine we will not find out.
CAC doesn't care if a coin is NGC or PCGS. Only cares if the coin is A or B for the grade and not C. Once the graee> @cameonut2011 said:
@panexpoguy said:
If PCGS began to feel challenged by CAC because they felt CAC was diluting the brand value of PCGS then there are a number of efforts that could be undertaken to address this.
Isn't this why PCGS introduced plus grades?
Plus grades are meaningless to those who understand that grading companies are 'for profit' entities and CAC does not recognize plus or star grades (at least that was their view when plus grades first started).
Wabbit2313,
Stop by at a major show and look me up. I will be happy to talk to you about my opinion of grading. I would be silly to share my grading on the message boards for many reasons. Education is a long term and hard fought battle in the coin business.
Comments
CAC would not be the only ones telling them that they are wrong. When someone is told that they are wrong long enough, hopefully an epiphany will stimulate a change.
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It’s similar to crossing a NGC/CAC coin. The graders subconsciously don’t like to told what the coin should grade.
I am seeing many in Rattlers & Fatty's with much better eye appeal. Is it better to take a chance on CAC so the slabs are preserved?
When submitting a few hundred coins at a single show, you better be thrown a bone once in a while.
Oh, I own my fair share of old holders, including the largest Redfield collection known to mankind!
In the end, it does not matter if you think you know how to grade-its what the grading services feel like that day or team is working together. For a while (years ago) PCGS was more friendly at LB since it was their show. Now the door is just closed.
I don't have a problem grading, but if a coin was a 67, 3 years ago, a 66, 3 months ago, and a 65 today, I have a problem, and so do many others
for most collectors PCGS is simply ranking a specific coin vs. all other same date/mm coins while also assigning a market price to it. what happens is twofold: when they are "tight" collectors feel as though they have lost money, when they are loose collectors feel like coins are too expensive. further, when collectors send a coin in during the loose period they never complain about their grades they get, only the ones everyone else gets. when they send a coin during the tight period they complain about their grades and buy everyone else's cheaper coins.
it's maddening.
I tend to not play the crack-out game, the CAC game and the complain about the loose and tight grading game. however, I do complain when "Show Grading" takes precedence over my "Factory" submission. human nature seems to dictate that we are uneasy about what we can't control.
FWIW, I viewed the Sotheby’s sale and didn’t see anywhere near as much upgrade potential as other bidders obviously did. So I have to wonder if the problem is that the bidders were loose, not that pcgs is tight. I’m not saying that PCGS doesn’t have their loose and tight days, just that they’re not the only ones.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I didn't send My Sotheby's coins in, these were a mix of everything but. I do have a Sotheby's Fatty GOLD CAC, and am thinking of cracking it just to see what happens. I am not sure I could handle the pain if it came back the same grade, or worse. (Which is certainly a possibility!!!)
I respect Wabbit as a collector and believe him when he says he knows how to grade.
I believe that PCGS only hires competent graders and uses very experienced finalizers.
I tend to not put much credence in Conspiracy Theories.
I believe that Morgan Dollars are one of the easiest coins to accurately grade.
I believe that PCGS graders have examined and graded multiples of coins compared to what Wabbit has seen.
I believe the two graders and finalizer at PCGS more accurately grade Morgan Dollars than Wabbit.
I DO NOT believe that there are times when PCGS intentionally grades either more/less strict intentionally.
I believe that if you want to send a coin to PCGS with a CAC sticker to influence their grading that you are mistaken.
I believe that as the pool of coins seen by PCGS increases that the assessment of them becomes more focused.
I believe that John Albanese is a good grader.
I believe that John Albanese makes mistakes when grading coins.
I believe that it is possible to more accurately grade a coin when it is raw vs. when it is encapsulated.
I drink Koolaide but right now I'm not thirsty.
LOL on Grading Sets! These guys are pros, and their best are at the shows. That is where the easy/real money is made for PCGS. Especially this show!
I think I have made one Show submission, it was to NGC and I joined as a member at the same time back around 2003 at Baltimore. I also think it is a good thing for PCGS, does it work well for submitters??
If PCGS began to feel challenged by CAC because they felt CAC was diluting the brand value of PCGS then there are a number of efforts that could be undertaken to address this. PCGS has enjoyed and benefited from the perception that their product is better than NGC. If PCGS is suddenly second to CAC, then non CAC PCGS coins can become de facto second tier coins.
To mitigate this approach, you could begin a program where by you made a conscious decision to conservatively grade coins so that almost all would CAC if submitted. This does not mean that there would be notably more gold CAC stickers awarded, because that would have the same negative impact to PCGS as many of their coins not stickering at all. But having the large majority of your freshly graded coins receiving green stickers,over time, would create the perception among collectors that there was either no need to seek a CAC sticker (because PCGS coins regularly sticker) or would increase the selling price of coins that you graded because stickerseekers would see them as more of a lock.
Maybe I imagined it but about a year and a half ago I thought I noticed a huge line n the sand on gold coins from PCGS at 64+ with many getting green beans. It seemed like PCGS had upped their standard on what a gold coinhadtobeto hit 65.
Just my thoughts and observations. If your observations are different, thatsuitsmejust fine.
In what series have you observed this pattern?
panex, PCGS IS better than NGC and CAC doesn't grade coins, they evaluate a coin in a capsule with a stated grade on the insert.
also, and it is a trivial point which highlights America's sloppy decline, but PCGS didn't "up" anything, they raised or increased it.
Trivial point returned: Sentences are begun with capital letters. Sloppy.
Trivial point #2: Contractions are frowned upon.
Trivial point #3: Per JA, a gold stickered coin would exceed CAC standards for the grade assigned, a fact that could not be determined unless CAC grades the coin and compares their evaluation to the TPG assigned grade.
Save your trivial corrections for those who are interested. Oh, and be correct next time. Thanks
50 years ago Archie Bell and the Drells advised this to happen!
sentences by me aren't started with capital letters and I love contractions, I just don't like lazy English. tell me, what flavor is the CAC Koolaide??
I agree with Ian. The grading was average...nothing great. Grading has certainly been tighter for a while, but I haven't experienced coins that I would grade 67 coming back 65. I did buy some lots from Sotheby's and they were tight but not ridiculous. I think I can give a good representative opinion. I submit a huge range of coins in different denominations and metals in various grade ranges and spend over five figures every month with our hosts. The people who can truly grade consistently will weather the "storm", and make enough coins to offset the coins that don't work right away.
Isn't this why PCGS introduced plus grades?
Soooo...... getting hard to sell coins, huh?
Well then, tighten the grading.
Please elaborate. Were these submitted at this show?
-Did you crack them?
-Reconsider?
-Clean them up a bit?
The only real way to tell how you did on the Sotheby's coins is to know which coins you bought, and what they regraded to, which I imagine we will not find out.
CAC doesn't care if a coin is NGC or PCGS. Only cares if the coin is A or B for the grade and not C. Once the graee> @cameonut2011 said:
Plus grades are meaningless to those who understand that grading companies are 'for profit' entities and CAC does not recognize plus or star grades (at least that was their view when plus grades first started).
Wabbit2313,
Stop by at a major show and look me up. I will be happy to talk to you about my opinion of grading. I would be silly to share my grading on the message boards for many reasons. Education is a long term and hard fought battle in the coin business.