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Thread Title: Need Japanese date help
Created On Monday February 27, 2006 7:49 AM


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ajaan
A Fungus Among Us

Posts: 15688
Joined: Sep 2001

Monday February 27, 2006 7:49 AM

What is the date on this coin? Thanks.

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my eBay

DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls"

CU #3245 B.N.A. #428

Don

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mayor1
Senior Member

Posts: 291
Joined: Apr 2004

Monday February 27, 2006 8:28 AM

Taisho year 12 (1923). Bill.

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USAF RET. 1963-1984

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ajaan
A Fungus Among Us

Posts: 15688
Joined: Sep 2001

Monday February 27, 2006 8:28 AM

Thanks.

-------------------------
my eBay

DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls"

CU #3245 B.N.A. #428

Don

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Stork
Expert Collector

Posts: 2779
Joined: Apr 2003

Monday February 27, 2006 2:50 PM

It's a shame NGC doesn't put the regnal year on the slabs like PCGS does. Right now that Digo character is your high bidder...I'm pretty sure he can read the year

.

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satootoko
Expert Collector

Posts: 3945
Joined: Feb 2003

Monday February 27, 2006 3:45 PM

Too bad the label isn't correct. Year 5 is the only Taisho sen missing from my collection.

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Roy

Posts: 802
Joined: Dec 2005

Monday February 27, 2006 4:42 PM

That reads from right to left, as they did in those days -- I remember them well -- Dia Nippon.
And at the bottom, again right to left, Taisho Juni -- Taisho 12, or 1923, as stated.

It's an "issen" coin.

Dai Nippon was the old militaristic way of referring to Japan. "Dai" is a definite no-no now, and Nippon is now referred to as Nihon except in some commercial names, for example Dai Nippon Printing Company.

Hope I got that all correct.

.

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Never figure without figures to figure.

Edited: Monday February 27, 2006 at 4:43 PM by ManyQs

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SYRACUSIAN
Master Collector

Posts: 6401
Joined: May 2003

Monday February 27, 2006 4:48 PM

Let's say that digo has no clue about Japanese numbers. He also tends to confuse the 5 rins with the sens of this period.

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Dimitri

DPOTD3

Posts: 802
Joined: Dec 2005

Monday February 27, 2006 4:54 PM

ichimon, ichibu, ichirin -- talking about a long, long time back. Not sure if I've got that order correct. I have heard use of same on some jidaigeki dramas. Wow, some of you guys really know your stuff.

.

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Never figure without figures to figure.

Posts: 802
Joined: Dec 2005

Monday February 27, 2006 5:05 PM

Okey-dokey, I just dug into some of my Japanese reference books: "bu" is 1/4 of "ryo". "rin" is 1/10 of "bu". And from what I can tell "mon" seems to be another term for "sen", and also used for weight measurements. Old stuff there. Even older than me.

.

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Never figure without figures to figure.

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satootoko
Expert Collector

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Joined: Feb 2003

Monday February 27, 2006 6:35 PM

<< Okey-dokey, I just dug into some of my Japanese reference books: "bu" is 1/4 of "ryo". "rin" is 1/10 of "bu". And from what I can tell "mon" seems to be another term for "sen" >>

Not quite.

By the early Meiji law which abolished the Tokugawa Shogunate's monetary system and created the rin/sen/yen, the rin was defined as being 1/10th of a sen, which was itself 1/100th of a yen, the new standard denomination.

Without going into the detail which you can read at your public library in Modern Japanese Coinage by Cummings, suffice it to say that the equivalent values were specified as 1 rin being worth one mon, and 1 yen being worth 1 ryo. 1 bu, of course, then was replaced by its equivalent 250 sen or 1/4 yen.

<< Nippon is now referred to as Nihon except in some commercial names, for example Dai Nippon Printing Company.

Hope I got that all correct.
>>

Almost.

The kana character "ho" becomes "po" when a small circle is added at the upper right. Kanji characters beginning with the sound represented by that character are sometimes pronounced with an initial "H" sound, and sometimes with an initial "P" sound. I'm sure there is some rationale for which sound is used, but other than "it sounds better that way", my Beautiful Bride hasn't been able to fully explain it to me in English. The characters for the country name can be pronounced "Ni Hon" or "Ni Pon" in different contexts.

The "Dai" (or "Tai") character standing alone can have the meaning "Great", and that's the way it was used in the country name prior to the American post-WW II occupation. (That same character is the first character of "Taisho".)

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Roy

Edited: Monday February 27, 2006 at 6:48 PM by satootoko

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Stork
Expert Collector

Posts: 2779
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Monday February 27, 2006 6:37 PM

Hey, I thought Mr. Digo had a nice old JNDA catalog with scrawled and barely legible notes about reading the numbers and the years

.

<< Old stuff there. Even older than me >>

If it's pre-Meiji I am absolutely clueless. After that I am barely less so.

BTW that is a nice looking coin Ajaan!

Cathy

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shirohniichan
Numismaticus Rex Dei Gratia

Posts: 33824
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Monday February 27, 2006 6:43 PM

<< Okey-dokey, I just dug into some of my Japanese reference books: "bu" is 1/4 of "ryo". "rin" is 1/10 of "bu". And from what I can tell "mon" seems to be another term for "sen", and also used for weight measurements. Old stuff there. Even older than me.

. >>

"Momme" is used for weights, though the only things still weighed that way (that I know of) are pearls. The later pre-modern coinage was so debased that ichi-ryou wasn't worth nearly what it used to be. There are also rectaungular "shu" denominations along with the "bu." If you look in the reference books you'll see how the fineness of the gold coins dropped dramatically as time went on.

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Obscurum per obscurius

Posts: 802
Joined: Dec 2005

Monday February 27, 2006 6:51 PM

<<

<< Okey-dokey, I just dug into some of my Japanese reference books: "bu" is 1/4 of "ryo". "rin" is 1/10 of "bu". And from what I can tell "mon" seems to be another term for "sen" >>

Not quite.

By the early Meiji law which abolished the Tokugawa Shogunate's monetary system and created the rin/sen/yen, the rin was defined as being 1/10th of a sen, which was itself 1/100th of a yen, the new standard denomination.

Without going into the detail which you can read at your public library in Modern Japanese Coinage by Cummings, suffice it to say that the equivalent values were specified as 1 rin being worth one mon, and 1 yen being worth 1 ryo. 1 bu, of course, then was replaced by its equivalent 250 sen or 1/4 yen. >>

With all due respect I think Modern Japanese Coinage has simplified too much. Or has not provided proper historical reference. For one thing, a "ryo" is extremely difficult to equate with one "yen" as we're dealing with quite a different age. Let's start with this, I seem to recall in my studies, admittedly a long time ago, that one ryo was equal to a certain quantity of rice. I may be wrong but I thought it was the quantity one could eat in one year.

Oh man, this is giving me a headache. I think I'd better do like the politicians do and check into the hospital for exhaustion from stress. Sorry, Mr. Nagata.

Let me see what my other books tell me, but it may take a bit.

.

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Never figure without figures to figure.

Posts: 802
Joined: Dec 2005

Monday February 27, 2006 6:58 PM

<<

<< Okey-dokey, I just dug into some of my Japanese reference books: "bu" is 1/4 of "ryo". "rin" is 1/10 of "bu". And from what I can tell "mon" seems to be another term for "sen", and also used for weight measurements. Old stuff there. Even older than me.

. >>

"Momme" is used for weights, though the only things still weighed that way (that I know of) are pearls. The later pre-modern coinage was so debased that ichi-ryou wasn't worth nearly what it used to be. There are also rectaungular "shu" denominations along with the "bu." If you look in the reference books you'll see how the fineness of the gold coins dropped dramatically as time went on. >>

And that I forgot to cover in my response -- stress again -- the gold content. So true. It dropped and dropped to the point of being so little it became a problem. But that is further "historical reference" that book should be adding to its info, if it hasn't.

On the use of "P" or "H" one point is significant: in pre-war/war days in Japan all military orders and many unit reports etc. were written in katakana only, for the benefit of the so many troopers who couldn't read all that well, and the "P" was used.

Still, we are clearly taught that "Nippon" is a reference to a "nationalistic" view and shouldn't be used anymore. Not sure if GHQ was involved in that interpretation, but that's the way I learned it.

.

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Never figure without figures to figure.

Edited: Monday February 27, 2006 at 7:01 PM by ManyQs

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Aethelred
Eald Deathlic Cyning

Posts: 23145
Joined: Dec 2001

Monday February 27, 2006 7:04 PM

<< Need Japanese date help >>

-Be yourself.

-Smile.

-Show interest in what she has to say.

-Pay for at least some of the date yourself!

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eBay

WNCCOINS.COM

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sumnom
Choose Your Title

Posts: 28291
Joined: Feb 2001

Tuesday February 28, 2006 12:14 AM

I thought I cancelled this post but it showed up anyway...

Edited: Tuesday February 28, 2006 at 12:51 AM by sumnom

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sumnom
Choose Your Title

Posts: 28291
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Tuesday February 28, 2006 2:00 AM

OK, I'm back.

I looked up some of these terms in Kojien, the standard Japanese-Japanese dictionary, and Nelson's Japanese-English Character Dictionary for some definitions of these things.

First and foremost, we need to keep in mind that these units are not exclusively monetary. They are units of account which can be used for weight, currency, or just enumerating objects. They have different values in different fields and time periods. The ryo, for example, can be a unit of weight which is divided into sub-units differently depending on whether one is measuring gereral weight, the weight of medicinal materials, gold and silver, or denominating currency.

So here is the stuff that concerns us:

In the Edo period,

one ryo of gold = 4 bu = 16 shu

one ryo of gold = 60 momme of silver

60 momme of silver = 4000 mon (copper coin)

The momme here is a unit of weight equivalent to 1/1000 of a kan (1 kan = 8.72 lbs, 3.75kg)

I am sure that the exchange rates between gold, silver, and copper were in constant flux. The Kojien simply said "in the Edo period" but that is not especially useful given how frequently these units were revalued and the varying fineness of the metals concerned.

Other things of interest:

In reference to copper cash, mon and momme are interchangable. In this case a momme is not a unit of weight but a copper coin.

From the Meiji period, yen and ryo came to have the same meaning in common parlance (not in legislation).

How does this look? I am going to look in some other sources and get back to y'all.

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sumnom
Choose Your Title

Posts: 28291
Joined: Feb 2001

Tuesday February 28, 2006 2:24 AM

I just looked at p. 60 of the 2004 edition of The Catalogue of Japanese Coins and Bank Notes (Nihon kahei katarogu) and found a nice little table:

1 ryo = 4 bu = 16 shu = 4,000 mon

1 bu = 4 shu = 1,000 mon

1 shu = 250 mon

Thanks to a special someone who sent me their old JNDA catalogue

Edited: Tuesday February 28, 2006 at 2:36 AM by sumnom

Posts: 802
Joined: Dec 2005

Tuesday February 28, 2006 2:31 AM

Thank you, sumnom. I got sidetracked and haven't been able to dig into my library, but I dare say you've covered the subject quite well now.

.

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Never figure without figures to figure.

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sumnom
Choose Your Title

Posts: 28291
Joined: Feb 2001

Tuesday February 28, 2006 2:33 AM

Now, if you really want to get confusing, try figuring out how these same units were used in China and Korea in different regions and time periods!

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