Should Collectors, Dealers & Auction Houses ...

wondercoin · June 24, 2002 10:22AM

be permitted to list sets in the Registry for the sole purpose of making them available for sale. For example, what if a collector has a ton of undergrade doubles. Should he be allowed to bunch them up, create a registry set and offer all the doubles in set form? Why not? If he sould, then I assume dealers and auction houses should have the same right to market their inventory or consignments that way? If not, why not? What do you think?

Wondercoin.

Spooly · June 24, 2002 10:32AM

Good post Mitch! I would say no! I would hate to see the Registry become a "For Sale" billboard. If you let the ones with 20 coins to list ..... in time people would be listing sets with 2 coins for sale! I would vote for "No direct" selling in the Registry! Keep the Registry clean!

TomB · June 24, 2002 10:39AM

I don't see any problem with listing their inventory, however, if you are talking about consignments added to the dealer-owned inventory then you are no longer talking about coins that are owned by the listers. If, however, you mean that the consigned merchandise be listed in a discrete set then there should be no problem with it.

wondercoin · June 24, 2002 10:46AM

This is a good start - Eric and Tom 180 degrees apart

Eric: You don't mean to suggest the Registry could become "commercial"

GQ · June 24, 2002 11:30AM

My 5 cents worth (gotta be better than 2 cents): There is alot of simularity with concours car/motorcycle shows and coin collecting (i.e. the registry). The owners have a passion with their car; be it a 100 point zillion dollar restoration or a nice classic driver. They are all lined up for people to admire and enjoy. The small shows allow "for sale" signs on the cars...........the big and classy shows absolutely forbid it. I do not want my coins displayed in a used car lot.....

Enjoy your coins.....I do

JJacks · June 24, 2002 11:33AM

I would have to think that this shouldn't be allowed normally, but my question no matter side you are on is how would it be enforced if it isn't allowed? Does PCGS have the people to verify noone is doing this? Do other collectors report anyone who is doing this to PCGS?

I have to think more on this subject.

JJacks

keithdagen · June 24, 2002 12:21PM

As long as the owner of the coins is consigning the coins for sale and consents to the dealer listing the pieces, there should be no problem. As much as I hate to say that.

braddick · June 24, 2002 12:56PM

I'm with Keith on this. Ownership of the coin allows enterance into the Registry. The specific intent of the owner/Dealer/Collector is none of my business. If enough people find a Dealer is using the Registry as a forum to hype his coins then the collecting public will send that Dealer the message via less business.

Spooly · June 24, 2002 1:09PM

Keith, so a dealer listing their inventory in the Registry is Ok with you? Would prices in the comments section be ok too? Humm... I thought the Registry was for listing and ranking collectors sets? Looks like most of you wouldn't care if Dealers and Collectors made "For Sale" sets to sell coins.

I have a bunch of coins to sell.... I am off to make 10 to 12 new sets! ( Registy set owner get a 10% discount!)

Keith, Mitch is not talking about the "Superior" set going to auction. Example: He is saying is it OK for Superior to make sets...... just to list and sell coins right out of the Registry.

keithdagen · June 24, 2002 1:17PM

If the dealer in question delists the coin in question when it is sold, whether they register it as part of a set is none of my business.

NOTE: I DO NOT LIKE IT BEING DONE, BUT IT AIN'T CURRENTLY AGAINST THE RULES

wondercoin · June 24, 2002 1:19PM

Eric: I just got a PM from a board member and registry collector telling me that his Registry set entitled "Set For Sale" worked like a charm. He unloaded his doubles in "one clean swoop" on the "BST" board the other day!! Now, you do conceed that if a collector can list his doubles to market as a set (and I'm not saying you agree with this - I'm just saying that IF A COLLECTOR CAN) then surely a dealer should have the same right to unload his inventory - no? If collectors can do this, why shouldn't I list (30) of my different state quarters in set form, get the set in the "top 20" (maybe top 10) and market it as a ready made starter set? Does this destroy the "integrity" of the Registry? If so, surely collectors doing the very same thing must be banned-no?

Wondercoin

PS: Once dealers get a "taste" of the Registry as they register their inventory in set form, maybe they will begin collecting again. It has been said many times the Registry is "addicting"

Russ · June 24, 2002 1:26PM

<< For example, what if a collector has a ton of undergrade doubles. Should he be allowed to bunch them up, create a registry set and offer all the doubles in set form? >>

I hope so.

Russ, NCNE

TCiccone · June 24, 2002 1:33PM

Ok Ok I thought I would put my 2 cents in!

You all sound like a bunch old coots. Who cares if a dealer's coin is in the registry set or if only 1 coin sets are created for sale. It's a good marketing ploy for the coin. Besides it could never be lasting competition because it would change or go away. And in the mean time, they are his/her coins and may choose to display them.

Now I SAY THIS WITH ONE CONDITION!

You can advertise the set but not use the set to advertise!

Who wants the registry all trashed up with for sale signs? Not me! I like looking over who's got what inside their sets and the pics too! It's good clean fun and should stay that way. If you want to advertise on EBay coin is in the "X Collection" that's fine and good luck! But don't you dare put a price or "offered on EBay in the Registry"!

That's all I have to say!

TC

Spooly · June 24, 2002 1:36PM

Mitch, I agree if collectors can do it dealers should be able to do it. This is a new issue, most collector selling their sets have made posts here on the forums, selling them to a dealer or send them to auction. This is a new issue, changing the set name to "For Sale" and listing prices...... that is "direct" selling from the Registry. That is completely different than what Superior is doing! I can see hundreds of "For Sale" set if this catches on! I am willing to bet that PCGS would step in and stop it.

mansco · June 24, 2002 1:41PM

What's wrong with a dealer or collector building a Registry quality set with doubles for the sole purpose or resale? If this is improper, then why not just outlaw any set that has coins owned by a previous owner? If doubles are of higher quality than other collectors' "singles", isn't that a better graded set???
What's wrong with coins being available for sale on the Registry board? When I signed up I don't remember seeing any rules...so which members get to make these rules? Why do some members have greater rights than others? Why are some opinions more valid than others?

Lighten up!!!

Whitewashqtr · June 24, 2002 1:43PM

You have got to be kidding. I hate to disagree with some of the expert coin collectors of this forum. But dont you think that the integrity of the Registry should stay in tact? Do dealers need to ruin everything? As a collector, I want to compete against other collectors. People that have taken the time to build their sets with the best coins that will be around for a long time.

To list a set, just to sell it, would in my opinion, devalue a set that has been put together over a few years (or more).

WWBillman · June 24, 2002 1:44PM

wondercoin,

A lot of this has already been said but here it goes.

The registry is for collectors.................(that’s one big period)

As long as a collector is registering or has asked a dealer to register his set it would have to be allowed regardless of the collectors motive behind it. No one knows what a persons motive is when registering a set. What can be done? Make everyone fill out a legal binding questionare prior to registering his set and make him sign it? But, if the seller does have the intent to sell I think it would only be appropriate to register prior to the set being consigned for auction or sale.

I do not think one collector should be allowed to register more than one set (if like you said he has multiples of every coin in that series) in the same registry set. The purpose of the registry is to complete the best set highest graded you can only limited by availability and your personal financial status. To list a high grade set and then a second in a lower grade would be cluttering the registry and could only be interpreted as an advertisement.

Sometimes it is hard to differentiate between dealers and collectors. All dealers are collectors to at least some degree. Therefore a dealer should also be able to participate in the registry regardless of motive (again we have no way of finding out someones motive). Provided it is his personal collection. I don't feel his inventory of coins for sale qualify as a collection.

If the coins are only registered for a month as a promo prior to the sale so be it I guess. There are and should not be rules governing how long they must stay in the registry prior to sale. The collector owns the coins and can do with what he wants when he wants.

Since it would be impossible to police, all we can do is hope dealers and collectors have the integrity and (here I go again) Ethics (we know a lot do not) to respect the registry and what it stands for by not turning it into their own billboard to hype their auctions.

Bill

By the way, good thread.

Edited for clarification.

Whitewashqtr · June 24, 2002 1:47PM

I agree (mostly) with Bill

quattrocoins · June 24, 2002 1:49PM

Been doing it for months, now (probably the first one to do it).
Don't see anything wrong with it as long as the coins are owned by the set registor.

Still a couple of boring Blast white ones left here.

Don

Winged Liberty (freedom of thought) and

RICK15JK · June 24, 2002 1:51PM

All,

It may be me why all this has started. I had 2 State Quarter Registry sets going. My second set was all my under grades of my main set as I upgrade it. The sole purpose of the set
was to have 2 high ranking sets, But as the cost of trying to maintain my main set, I needed to sell off my other. I added a FOR SALE tab on the registry set. Yes it sold. But the main
purpose was to have 2 sets.

Rick

Russ · June 24, 2002 1:54PM

<< My second set was all my under grades of my main set as I upgrade it. >>

Which I too am doing in the Kennedy proofs.

Russ, NCNE

Spooly · June 24, 2002 2:00PM

Quattrocoins are you actively selling coins from that set? I didn't see any prices?

I don't care if a collector has 2 sets. HD has 2 sets that are completely different. High Desert, Low Desert

I might just start another Large cent collection..... PO-1 to G-4 collection.

WWBillman · June 24, 2002 2:04PM

Shame Shame RICK15JK..........

From my previous reply:

<< I do not think one collector should be allowed to register more than one set (if like you said he has multiples of every coin in that series) in the same registry set. The purpose of the registering is to complete the best set highest graded you can only limited by availability and your personal financial status. To list a high grade set and then a second in a lower grade would be cluttering the registry and could only be interpreted as an advertisement. >>

Shame Shame !!!!!

Spooly · June 24, 2002 2:08PM

Whitewashqtr......The integrity of the Registry would be destroyed in a very short period of time!

Whitewashqtr · June 24, 2002 2:12PM

Spooly,

That is what I am getting at. The real collections will de-value because the Registry lacks integrity.

keithdagen · June 24, 2002 2:23PM

Spooly -- the plus to the whole situation is that a set has to be 90% complete once it is retired to stay on the All-Time list. Most of these sets put together (at least for larger series) will not meet this requirement and fade away.

quattrocoins · June 24, 2002 3:13PM

Spooly:

Blast White & 4 sale!

PMs and e-mails work!

Regards,

Don

2nd sets, and

wondercoin · June 24, 2002 3:20PM

This thread did not start because of Rick and his state quarters per se, but I mentioned the concept of selling coins through the use of the Registry (and perhaps labeling your set "Set For Sale") on another thread this morning. I got a PM from Spooly asking for me to show him an example of this. I tried, but Rick had sold his state quarter set too fast for me to even pull up his set!!

Rick came to me a couple weeks ago and asked me if I was interested in buying his doubles. I basically told him he could make more money selling them to a fellow collector who wanted to start a state quarter collection. He did exactly that using the "Set For Sale" idea.

I thought this was very interesting. Rick is not the first collector who has used the Registry as an advertising tool to sell coins. You can see from this thread that other collectors intend to do the very same thing. The Registry has become so commercialized that this sort of conduct does not surprise me at all. In fact, what a super way for collectors to sell coins to one another WITHOUT HAVING TO SELL THEM TO DEALERS!! And, what a great possible way for dealers to sell off entire collections to serious collectors, easily and cost-effectively!! Is this the next explosion in Registry? Pre-packaged collections. In this era of fast food, etc. why not have a marketplace where impatient "collectors" can shop for the very best registry material from the comfort of their bedroom or den. "OWN A LIFETIME OF REGISTRY COLLECTIBLES IN 12 EASY PAYMENTS." "THE ONLY REGISTRY SET YOU WILL EVER NEED TO OWN". "INSTANT #1 SET WITH ALL THE FAME AND FORTUNE THAT GOES WITH IT".

WONDERCOIN

littlewicher · June 24, 2002 3:24PM

Heck, why not?

TWQG · June 24, 2002 4:09PM

I thought that's what the B,S, & T board was for. Eliminating the middleman.

IrishMike · June 24, 2002 4:34PM

First of all Bill, the registry is not meant for listing the finest sets, it's meant to list the finest PCGS sets. You keep forgetting that

as do some of the rest of you. Facts: PCGS is owned by coin dealers, they set up the registry concept, please consider why they did this, dealers are collectors too, advertising your set there hopefully will eliminate selling them back to dealers, thus lessening some of the power they have over the registry. Fact, at least one of the top sets was listed in the registry only to publicize it for sale at Long Beach. The registy is what it is. It never was meant to be the sacred cow of finest sets, it was meant to be a marketing ploy and it has turned out to be a marvelous one for CU. Just don't lie to yourself and believe other wise.The registry set is what it is

oreville · June 24, 2002 4:44PM

Wondercoin: Your quote:

<< why not have a marketplace where impatient "collectors" can shop for the very best registry material from the comfort of their bedroom or den. "OWN A LIFETIME OF REGISTRY COLLECTIBLES IN 12 EASY PAYMENTS." "THE ONLY REGISTRY SET YOU WILL EVER NEED TO OWN". "INSTANT #1 SET WITH ALL THE FAME AND FORTUNE THAT GOES WITH IT". WONDERCOIN >>

I did find it funny.

But I did buy a complete buffalo set (no 37-D 3L) in good plus condition or better with full dates because I dreaded the work to find all the pieces. Maybe I am getting too old.

DeepCoin · June 24, 2002 9:37PM

I think you might want to make a small change to you can only have one set in a registry. For those coins that come FB, FBL, FH, FS PCGS has two designations. I think you should be able to have one set with the designation and one without. Just MHO.

I only have one set, but Ken has a couple and I applaud him for that. I believe his second set has some really nice toned coins that are perhaps not marked as technically high as his primary set. The thing to remember is that Ken is a Collector, NOT a dealer and that makes all the difference in the world in my mind.

Steve27 · June 24, 2002 10:15PM

The PCGS Set Registry is a sales gimmick; thus, others using it to make sales (dealer or collector) should be expected.

billywls · June 24, 2002 10:19PM

It seems to me the purpose of the registry is to be able to compare your set against other sets of the same type to determine its standing (by grade points). If one of HD's sets was purchased by a dealer would it be any less of a set? The dealer owns it, he should be free to register it in his name. A number of dealers have registered sets and sold them without much noise up to this point.

The question of undergrade doubles making a set should be self correcting. You can only admire a collector or dealer whose seconds produce a high ranking regisrty set. If its a low ranking set, who would be interested?

My personal preference would be to keep commercial comments out of the registry proper. Let dealers (and collectors) spam the sets through the forum or other venues.

Keyrock · June 24, 2002 11:59PM

I was thinking of doing something similiar. As I upgrade my Lincoln set, I was contemplating listing the second set as the "4 sale set". Other collectors could simply click on the set and see what there is for the offering. I don't like spending alot of time listing on ebay and the BST post can get burried in no time. I figured if I listed the set in the series where people are looking then it makes life easy for all involved.

If PCGS could create a link to the sets that are for sale, or allow you to register it without having points assigned I think it would be fine. The only problem I would see is that a dealer who focuses in a series could have his/her inventory rank as a top 5 or 10 set. That wouldn't be right in my opinion, therfore it would need to be a 0 point set.

Rich

pontiacinf · June 25, 2002 12:56AM

pcgs created this as a marketing tool, bj said so...so now that others are reaping benifits it should be stopped?

you guys spend way too much time worrying about what others do.

grow up

WWBillman · June 25, 2002 1:17AM

IrishMike,

<< First of all Bill, the registry is not meant for listing the finest sets, it's meant to list the finest PCGS sets. You keep forgetting that as do some of the rest of you >>

You know Mike I am and have always been well aware that the registry is only a ranking of the finest PCGS slabbed registered sets.

Why do you twist my words? What I said was “I do not think one collector should be allowed to register more than one set (if like you said he has multiples of every coin in that series) in the same registry set. The purpose of the registry is to complete the best set highest graded you can only limited by availability and your personal financial status. To list a high grade set and then a second in a lower grade would be cluttering the registry and could only be interpreted as an advertisement.” Where in that statement do I say or imply the registry sets are the best sets anywhere?

Everyone knows there are many sets out there better than anything in this registry. When I speak of this registry and the sets in it, my comments are confined to and only apply to the registry. Do I need to put a disclaimer in my signature line so I don’t have to say what everyone already knows over and over again every time I make a comment on this board?

You know, I have never registered my sets in this registry. I have always been hesitant to do so because of all the BS and controversy that surrounds it. Would I be doing it for the right reason? Is this what I started collecting coins for? Would I just possibly become a pawn by participating in a marketing ploy by an industry that might just care less and only sees collectors as people to use and manipulate to further their goals (Blind following the Blind)? Would the integrity of my sets somehow be cheapened? Could all the BS drive me out of a hobby I love?

Will I ever register my sets? I don’t know. Not that it matters or anyone would care less because like you said,

<< the registry is not meant for listing the finest sets, it's meant to list the finest PCGS sets >>

Bill

kieferscoins · June 25, 2002 2:15AM

Future sets won't just say "for sale", but will have anoying things like L@@K.

Cameron Kiefer

dbldie55 · June 25, 2002 2:43AM

When should a set be pulled from the current listing? There is a set right now with about half (maybe more) of the coins listed as being sold in the notes section. How can it be a current finest set if most (any?) coins are no longer part of it?

keithdagen · June 25, 2002 4:01AM

In my opinion, a coin should be removed from a set as soon as the coin is no longer legally in a Registrant's possession. That is PCGS's stance as well at this time.

If a collector has a set and wants to sell the coins piecemeal, they need to remove the pieces as soon as they are sold. If the collector does not want to lose ranking because of that (in case of a complete set), they need to retire the entire set first.

Typetone · June 25, 2002 4:13AM

Here's my take.

The registry should be for collectors. Dealers should not register sets they are actually collecting. I would not buy coins from a dealer who is competing with me for a top spot in the registry. Mitch is a good example of how to do it. He probably has the best set of Washington's around, yet it isn't registered. I buy coins from Mitch. Would not if he registered. Same with any other dealer. Not saying there should be a rule against dealers registering. Just that I won't do business with them. I want to buy a dealer's best coins not his seconds.

OK, if a colector uses a dealer name instead of his own. For example, the former Legend collection of proof Mercury's was owned by a collector who just didn't want to use his name.

I also think its OK if a dealer lists a set for the sole purpose of selling it. Whether his own coins, or a collectors, in this case the dealer is not competing with me just trying to sell a set. Just take it down when sold. I also have no problem with a collector putting up a set to sell it.

Would prefer advertising to occur away from the registry itself. A post in BST or anyway can of course link to the set.

Greg

WWBillman · June 25, 2002 5:48AM

Is this ok?

Selling from registry

Personally it sickens me to see this?

Bill

keithdagen · June 25, 2002 5:52AM

Bill,

What sickens me is that he is being forced to sell. That set was only a couple of coins shy of being complete. The seller is a 1st-class guy who has put together almost 2 complete MS Kennedy sets in high grade. A unique accomplishment, and a great eye for coins.

And if that burns you, notice that his set will disappear when the last coin is sold.

quattrocoins · June 26, 2002 1:47AM

Bill,

Do you ever really go by what your sig. line states?

Lighten-up a little.

A set is a set is a set, no matter what the reason it's put together. I for one would like to see as many sets that can possibly be put together.

As another sig. line states, "One Man's trash is another Man's Treasure"!
or as I know it, "One man gathers what another man spills"!

Regards,

Don

"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right."

WWBillman · June 26, 2002 9:01AM

Again I must reply to this thread as I have done in others.

I can't believe so many people can read the same thread and not know what it is about (or care?). Do people just brows through and only read half the posts. If all my posts were read I don't think I would have received this much grief. I should lighten up?

PCGS has seen fit to establish a new registry rule that is exactly in line with everything I have said. If you read all my posts you will see that.

And yes I do believe in what I state in my sig line. But that does not exclude me from giving my opinion or trying to change what I see as wrong.

oreville · June 26, 2002 9:44AM

keithdagen:

Your quote:

<< What sickens me is that he is being forced to sell. That set was only a couple of coins shy of being complete. The seller is a 1st-class guy who has put together almost 2 complete MS Kennedy sets in high grade. A unique accomplishment, and a great eye for coins. >>

Who is forcing him to sell?

I am disturbed by the trend towards instant registry formations and then "instant" disposal. What is going on??? Great sets should take a long time to build? They should also be kept so that the collector can enjoy what took him so long to acquire. This should not be a mirror of our fast food society!!!

It has taken me close to 40 years to build the sets I have and none of them are in the registry system. That does not mean that they would not qualify but what ever happened to the process of collecting and the joy of the hunt. The hunt SHOULD take years and the learning that goes along with the hunt should be what collecting is all about.

It is a sign of a decay in our hobby when collectors speak of staring and completing sets in a matter of a year or two at the most and even more amazing, quite often expect to complete these sets in a matter of months. We must change that mindset. It is time for a Bowers commentary on this sad fact of life.

It should be looked at as a happy challenge when one finds out the best coins are in another collection. At least to me that is a promising development because that is better than having no clue where the heck the best coins are. I encourage the lower set registry owners to have more patience!! It is a big hobby and it is a turtle race not a rabbit race!!!

keithdagen · June 26, 2002 2:01PM

Who is forcing him to sell?

Oreville, he addressed his need to sell on a separate thread.

Should Collectors, Dealers &amp; Auction Houses ...

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Should Collectors, Dealers & Auction Houses ...