unique die trial jefferson pg8

LanceNewmanOCC · September 20, 2015 3:50AM

.
LINK

didnt find any other info and the cert lookup is neat but fruitless.

ok. found some links - link
.

Zoins · September 20, 2015 3:54AM

<< .
LINK

didnt find any other info and the cert lookup is neat but fruitless.

ok. found some links
. >>

Looks like there's a population of 87 from that cert lookup - PCGS 90058986.

It would be great to see a TrueView for this nice art deco design.

Here's the 2010 Long Beach HA listing where it didn't meet the reserve.

keyman64 · September 20, 2015 4:05AM

Cool item, too bad it is only one sided, has a spot etc...anyone know what the reserve was or what the bidding got up to?

MrEureka · September 20, 2015 4:07AM

I don't know what that pop figure is for, but the piece is unique.

More info at uspatterns.com.

Zoins · September 20, 2015 4:13AM

Here's the slab and the cert lookup PCGS 90058986. It is an interesting cert look up record. Should it be resubmitted for another number?

Christos · September 20, 2015 4:14AM

Would not qualify for full steps as there just are not enough steps.

Edit to add: We need better designs like this, even though there is more going on it looks good and not to busy.

MrEureka · September 20, 2015 4:14AM

anyone know what the reserve was or what the bidding got up to?

It was reserved at 10K and surprisingly did not sell.

keyman64 · September 20, 2015 4:17AM

<< anyone know what the reserve was or what the bidding got up to?

It was reserved at 10K and surprisingly did not sell. >>

Thanks.

Regardless of how rare, I bet it would have sold if it were a bit prettier...and for a higher price of course.

Zoins · September 20, 2015 4:17AM

<< I don't know what that pop figure is for, but the piece is unique.

More info at uspatterns.com. >>

Great photo of the models on USPatterns.com.

It's interesting that this has a Judd number, J-C1938-1, since it's a private production.

Zoins · September 20, 2015 4:25AM

<< 

<< anyone know what the reserve was or what the bidding got up to?

It was reserved at 10K and surprisingly did not sell. >>

Thanks.

Regardless of how rare, I bet it would have sold if it were a but prettier...and for a higher price of course. >>

My guess is that a few factors contributed:

- condition
- privately produced
- electrotrial / copper shell vs standard strike

Still, a very cool piece and part of our history.

BigDowgie · September 20, 2015 6:47AM

Interesting! Something I never researched being an avid Jefferson collector.

Thanks

Zoins · September 20, 2015 6:56AM

Seems like the demand has died down a bit from when it was sold for $22,000 back in 2006. Was it known this was a private striking back then?

A while back I was researching Jefferson competition submissions and assembled the following:

savoyspecial · September 20, 2015 7:01AM

I think the main thing that changed between 2006 and now is the economy.....doesn't surprise me that reserve was not met

Zoins · September 20, 2015 7:15AM

<< I think the main thing that changed between 2006 and now is the economy.....doesn't surprise me that reserve was not met >>

That may be for more common pieces but it seems like unique, exceptional coins, can still bring big money in today's market and this is unique so far.

MrEureka · September 20, 2015 7:22AM

Seems like the demand has died down a bit from when it was sold for $22,000 back in 2006. Was it known this was a private striking back then?

Yes.

As for the decline, you have to consider that the coin was "overexposed", meaning that the coin had been on the market for a number of years. The new discovery turned into "stale product". As they say, "the thrill is gone".

Also, the market for such things is very thin. Prices can easily double or halve when even one buyer enters or exits the market.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 20, 2015 9:16AM

.
why wouldn't the rough side just be smooth if it wasn't struck between 2 dies?

i understand it is a trial and it is kind of a no holds barred. maybe that answers my question aka just because that is what they chose to use.

just seems like they'd have a good idea of what it looked like prior to striking an would use a to-spec flan.
.

Hydrant · September 22, 2015 12:22AM

Hydrant · September 22, 2015 12:31AM

The classic design Jefferson nickel, 1938-1964, is the most beautiful coin ever produced by the U.S. mint. No one disputes the undeniable fact that the classic Jefferson nickel is anything but a miracle in concept, design, visual beauty, etc.

Zoins · September 22, 2015 1:06AM

<< .
why wouldn't the rough side just be smooth if it wasn't struck between 2 dies?

i understand it is a trial and it is kind of a no holds barred. maybe that answers my question aka just because that is what they chose to use.

just seems like they'd have a good idea of what it looked like prior to striking an would use a to-spec flan.
. >>

RWB replied to this ATS which I'll quote here:

<< The piece referred to is a privately made electrotype of deFrancisci’s rejected entry in the 1938 Jefferson Nickel competition. It was never die struck and is not a U.S. Mint product. Therefore, it is not a real pattern or experimental piece.

A uniface electrotype will have an irregular back because it is simply a filled shell of copper, and not a planchet intended to be die struck.

Marketing types have been trying to exaggerate this little bit of ephemera, and several others from the competition, for several years.

The best numismatic use of actual-size electrotypes was by Fraser in preliminary design work for the Buffalo nickel. (See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1915 for details and illustrations.)

[Disclosure. I was the one who found the plaster models of this and the obverse in the Smithsonian storage warehouse in Suitland, Maryland. I was also the one who corrected the original expert opinion that this was a design by James Fraser. (See back issues of Coin World for details.) >>

DCW · January 13, 2018 11:40AM

Saw this piece on eBay for $25k. Was going to start a discussion, but I see it has been covered.
Still very interesting...

Zoins · January 13, 2018 11:52AM

@RogerB wrote (ATS):
Disclosure. I was the one who found the plaster models of this and the obverse in the Smithsonian storage warehouse in Suitland, Maryland. I was also the one who corrected the original expert opinion that this was a design by James Fraser. (See back issues of Coin World for details.)

Thanks for the discovery Roger!

The Smithsonian has so much stuff I wonder if an endowed chair could help with this.

BuffaloIronTail · January 13, 2018 11:53AM

The Anthony De Francisci piece is very attractive. His artistic continuation of the rays (Peace Dollar) gives the coin look of depth and substance.

Pete

Zoins · January 13, 2018 11:54AM

@BuffaloIronTail said:
The Anthony De Francisci piece is very attractive. His artistic continuation of the rays (Peace Dollar) gives the coin look of depth and substance.

Pete

I agree. It would be great for the FSNS to commission one of these similar to the one they did for the original Felix Schlag design.

RogerB · January 13, 2018 12:46PM

By the 1930s rays and similar things had become trite and largely meaningless ornaments. DeFrancisci never made it into the upper ranks of American sculptors and like Paul Manship and many others was quickly forgotten by most.

Zoins · January 13, 2018 12:49PM

@RogerB said:
By the 1930s rays and similar things had become trite and largely meaningless ornaments. DeFrancisci never made it into the upper ranks of American sculptors and like Paul Manship and many others was quickly forgotten by most.

I know DeFrancisci but not Manship

I just looked him up and he has some nice work!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manship

RogerB · January 13, 2018 12:53PM

Both did some nice work. But it was not exceptional and was merely peasant, utilitarian output for corporate clients. Certainly the work was far above many people who claim to be sculptors or medalists today, but there was nothing to remember them for.

RogerB · January 13, 2018 1:00PM

As for the electrotype 'curio' in question - a realistic price would be consistent with other electrotypes -- to an interested buyer. Just an opinion.

Zoins · January 13, 2018 1:05PM

@RogerB said:
As for the electrotype 'curio' in question - a realistic price would be $300 to $500 +/- to an interested buyer. Just an opinion.

Sign me up at that price

Any thoughts on how much the plasters would be worth on the open market?

koynekwest · January 13, 2018 10:12PM

IMO that Vander Velde reverse is SO much better than what ended up on the coin

koynekwest · January 13, 2018 10:15PM

The Jacobb reverse ain't bad, either. The obverse of that one is also good.

abcde12345 · January 14, 2018 12:29AM

If it had a date it would be more rare.

dcarr · January 14, 2018 2:23AM

@RogerB said:
By the 1930s rays and similar things had become trite and largely meaningless ornaments. ...

In other words, anything that came after was ... boring.

I wouldn't call the Oregon Trail half dollar or the Saint-Gaudens double eagle "trite". Both of those have rays.

ricko · January 14, 2018 7:32AM

I like the design... Not sure who determined rays to be trite... I like them... On the Peace Dollar and St. Gaudens coin designs.... Beats the crass designs we see today ... Cheers, RickO

unique die trial jefferson pg8

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