For PCGS Registry users ... Is the term "Colorless" for some copper sets, is a bad choice
WingedLiberty1957
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So copper coins have a bit of a unique issue in the PCGS registry scoring.
For copper coins PCGS subdivides coins into red (RD), red-brown (RB), and brown (BN). The scores always reward RD over RB ... and RB over BN with higher scores as you move up the "color class scale".
It's interesting but to most toned coin collectors, we much prefer BN over RB ... and RB ver RD. Since those non-red coins sometimes display wild and vivid colors.
So for me, when I look at a "dime-a-dozen" original copper-colored MS67RD coin, I fall asleep (I can't stop yawning).
But when I see a beautifully toned MS67BN coin, my passion is sparked. The MS67BN is infinitely more rare and desirable in my book. And the PCGS slab populations usually bear this up as well (in full MS and PR coins).
PCGS has attempted to mitigate this penalizing of BN and RB coins by coming up with versions of sets that don't penalize for color class. That is, any MS67 coin will have the same score no matter what color class it falls into.
My issue is how PCGS tags these sets. The term PCGS uses is "Colorless".
I kind of get where they came up with that term, initually, since the scoring disregards color -- however it just seems odd to me that in the so called "COLORLESS" registry sets is where you see all the "COLORFUL" (BN and RB) coins.
Is there any interest by members (players) of the PCGS registry to petition/ask PCGS to come up with a better more descriptive name for "Colorfully Toned" registry sets other than "Colorless"" ?
The ONLY reason I even collect coins and send stuff to PCGS for grades and photographs is due to my love and passion for colorfully toned coins and I always feel a bit like I am just in a forgotten minority -- even though I know a ton of coin collectors that have a passion for toned coins.
So could PCGS pick another better term other than COLORLESS for these colorfully toned sets?
Any suggestions?
I think even something as simple as COLORFUL is a more descriptive and more fitting term
I also like the term MULTISPECTRAL -- at least the term alerts you to the kinds of coins you might be in those sets.
COLORLESS is just such a misleading term.
Would anyone call the following coins "Colorless" ? So why tag the PCGS Registry Set as "Colorless" ?
For copper coins PCGS subdivides coins into red (RD), red-brown (RB), and brown (BN). The scores always reward RD over RB ... and RB over BN with higher scores as you move up the "color class scale".
It's interesting but to most toned coin collectors, we much prefer BN over RB ... and RB ver RD. Since those non-red coins sometimes display wild and vivid colors.
So for me, when I look at a "dime-a-dozen" original copper-colored MS67RD coin, I fall asleep (I can't stop yawning).
But when I see a beautifully toned MS67BN coin, my passion is sparked. The MS67BN is infinitely more rare and desirable in my book. And the PCGS slab populations usually bear this up as well (in full MS and PR coins).
PCGS has attempted to mitigate this penalizing of BN and RB coins by coming up with versions of sets that don't penalize for color class. That is, any MS67 coin will have the same score no matter what color class it falls into.
My issue is how PCGS tags these sets. The term PCGS uses is "Colorless".
I kind of get where they came up with that term, initually, since the scoring disregards color -- however it just seems odd to me that in the so called "COLORLESS" registry sets is where you see all the "COLORFUL" (BN and RB) coins.
Is there any interest by members (players) of the PCGS registry to petition/ask PCGS to come up with a better more descriptive name for "Colorfully Toned" registry sets other than "Colorless"" ?
The ONLY reason I even collect coins and send stuff to PCGS for grades and photographs is due to my love and passion for colorfully toned coins and I always feel a bit like I am just in a forgotten minority -- even though I know a ton of coin collectors that have a passion for toned coins.
So could PCGS pick another better term other than COLORLESS for these colorfully toned sets?
Any suggestions?
I think even something as simple as COLORFUL is a more descriptive and more fitting term
I also like the term MULTISPECTRAL -- at least the term alerts you to the kinds of coins you might be in those sets.
COLORLESS is just such a misleading term.
Would anyone call the following coins "Colorless" ? So why tag the PCGS Registry Set as "Colorless" ?
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These guys already hog the regular sets ... why not leave the "Colorless" sets to the BN and RB collectors
I think PCGS should have a rule that you must have over 50% BN and RB copper to "qualify" to be included (part of) a Colorless Registry.
That way the regular sets can be dominated by the RD collectors
And the colorless sets give a place for the BN and RB collectors to compete.
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<< <i>One other thing I noticed is that at the top of most "Colorless" copper registry rankings are sets with 95% RED coins!
These guys already hog the regular sets ... why not leave the "Colorless" sets to the BN and RB collectors
I think PCGS should have a rule that you must have over 50% BN and RB copper to "qualify" to be included (part of) a Colorless Registry.
That way the regular sets can be dominated by the RD collectors
And the colorless sets give a place for the BN and RB collectors to compete. >>
And there you have it, today's mentality that I want to compete...but only if I can win, classic. It's my opinion that your thinking diliutes the registry so that everyone can feel like a big fish even if the pond only has a population of one, I would rather see where I stand against all sets but that is just me. Personaly getting a piece of paper that says registry winner (or whatever it says) is fun but not the reason I collect coins, but to each his own. Also my coments are those of a non PCGS registry user, I do the ATS registry for the same reasons, I would rather measure myself against all coins not just one brand of plastic.
The reason that you see very few high grade BN or RB (post 1930) coins is that only recently was there any demand for those coins, prior to the last say 4-5 years no registry collector cared about tarnished copper. If the trend continues or grows and the possibility of making money is high enough then you will see more of them submitted and the pops will grow. For myself I would perfer a full RD set, but I don't have the deep pockets for that thus I have a mix of colors. And having said that I can apprciate a nice toned copper coin it just does'nt do as much for me as it does for you.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
These guys already hog the regular sets ... why not leave the "Colorless" sets to the BN and RB collectors
I think PCGS should have a rule that you must have over 50% BN and RB copper to "qualify" to be included (part of) a Colorless Registry.
That way the regular sets can be dominated by the RD collectors
And the colorless sets give a place for the BN and RB collectors to compete. >>
Maybe the should have a category of sets where you can't have RD cents.......sorta like the Everyman sets where no UNCS are allowed.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i> And there you have it, today's mentality that I want to compete...but only if I can win, classic. It's my opinion that your thinking diliutes the registry so that everyone can feel like a big fish even if the pond only has a population of one, I would rather see where I stand against all sets but that is just me. Personaly getting a piece of paper that says registry winner (or whatever it says) is fun but not the reason I collect coins, but to each his own. Also my coments are those of a non PCGS registry user, I do the ATS registry for the same reasons, I would rather measure myself against all coins not just one brand of plastic.
The reason that you see very few high grade BN or RB (post 1930) coins is that only recently was there any demand for those coins, prior to the last say 4-5 years no registry collector cared about tarnished copper. If the trend continues or grows and the possibility of making money is high enough then you will see more of them submitted and the pops will grow. For myself I would perfer a full RD set, but I don't have the deep pockets for that thus I have a mix of colors. And having said that I can apprciate a nice toned copper coin it just does'nt do as much for me as it does for you. -CoinBuf >>
Yes, and by your logic. Ohio State was not the best College Football Team last year. The New England Patriots took that honor as the best college football team. Actually the New England Patriots took the honor as the best High School Football Team as well.
In your world, you would create a Special Olympics and then let all the able-bodied athletes compete. Yes all the able-bodied athletes would win all the Special Olympics Medals, but "at least we haven't diluted the competition so everyone can feel like a big fish" (your words).
Now let's all cheer for the New England Patriots ... the best high school football team in the U.S. last year. YAYYY.
And no I don't want to create a special category just so I can win. I would lose every time. But I would like to see an area of the registry where I don't have to wade through thousands upon thousands upon thousands of boring, dime-a-dozen, dipped-out, lifeless, lusterless, look-a-like, red copper coins ... to find a few interesting and unique toners.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I still have a few registry sets, but I pretty much lost interest in them a decade ago. It is really a completion based on how much money you can spend on coins. I already know that most people have more money than I do.
When the registry first started, I did a major gold type set in order to build a top 5 set and get it pedigreed. In 2002 it was a lot easier back then. Today I don't think I'm even in the top 20 anymore.
Absolutely no one cares about my pedigree and instead of raising the value, it most likely lowers it because who wants a label with my name on it, other than my family?
But that's why I did it, so it would stay in my family and hopefully be passed down to each new generation.
<< <i>Why not just call them Toned
I still have a few registry sets, but I pretty much lost interest in them a decade ago. It is really a completion based on how much money you can spend on coins. I already know that most people have more money than I do.
When the registry first started, I did a major gold type set in order to build a top 5 set and get it pedigreed. In 2002 it was a lot easier back then. Today I don't think I'm even in the top 20 anymore.
Absolutely no one cares about my pedigree and instead of raising the value, it most likely lowers it because who wants a label with my name on it, other than my family?
But that's why I did it, so it would stay in my family and hopefully be passed down to each new generation. >>
PCGS and no one else wants to be associated with Artificially Toned coins so you can't just simply call it Toned. If going that route it would have to be NT or MA Toned but then that seems to get too specific...hence my suggestion to call it TFI (Thin Film Interference) as I think that would infer a more natural process. Not sure really.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Toning when selling and tarnish when buying and the vernacular police issuing tickets is pretty silly.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i> And there you have it, today's mentality that I want to compete...but only if I can win, classic. It's my opinion that your thinking diliutes the registry so that everyone can feel like a big fish even if the pond only has a population of one, I would rather see where I stand against all sets but that is just me. Personaly getting a piece of paper that says registry winner (or whatever it says) is fun but not the reason I collect coins, but to each his own. Also my coments are those of a non PCGS registry user, I do the ATS registry for the same reasons, I would rather measure myself against all coins not just one brand of plastic.
The reason that you see very few high grade BN or RB (post 1930) coins is that only recently was there any demand for those coins, prior to the last say 4-5 years no registry collector cared about tarnished copper. If the trend continues or grows and the possibility of making money is high enough then you will see more of them submitted and the pops will grow. For myself I would perfer a full RD set, but I don't have the deep pockets for that thus I have a mix of colors. And having said that I can apprciate a nice toned copper coin it just does'nt do as much for me as it does for you. -CoinBuf >>
Yes, and by your logic. Ohio State was not the best College Football Team last year. The New England Patriots took that honor as the best college football team. Actually the New England Patriots took the honor as the best High School Football Team as well.
In your world, you would create a Special Olympics and then let all the able-bodied athletes compete. Yes all the able-bodied athletes would win all the Special Olympics Medals, but "at least we haven't diluted the competition so everyone can feel like a big fish" (your words).
Now let's all cheer for the New England Patriots ... the best high school football team in the U.S. last year. YAYYY.
And no I don't want to create a special category just so I can win. I would lose every time. But I would like to see an area of the registry where I don't have to wade through thousands upon thousands upon thousands of boring, dime-a-dozen, dipped-out, lifeless, lusterless, look-a-like, red copper coins ... to find a few interesting and unique toners. >>
(Yes, and by your logic. Ohio State was not the best College Football Team last year. The New England Patriots took that honor as the best college football team. Actually the New England Patriots took the honor as the best High School Football Team as well.)
I'm guessing that this was part of the heavy drinking phase as I was talking about the registry and coins, why you’re angry with the Patriots I have no idea as that was not any part of my post or any other in this thread.
(In your world, you would create a Special Olympics and then let all the able-bodied athletes compete. Yes all the able-bodied athletes would win all the Special Olympics Medals, but "at least we haven't diluted the competition so everyone can feel like a big fish" (your words).)
Apples and oranges, comparing people with disabilities and athletic competition to coins is so unrealistic that I cannot even wrap my head around what you were thinking; coins do not have disabilities only the people viewing them.
(Now let's all cheer for the New England Patriots ... the best high school football team in the U.S. last year. YAYYY.)
Still drinking, again I guess, no clue what this has to do with anything.
(And no I don't want to create a special category just so I can win. I would lose every time. But I would like to see an area of the registry where I don't have to wade through thousands upon thousands upon thousands of boring, dime-a-dozen, dipped-out, lifeless, lusterless, look-a-like, red copper coins ... to find a few interesting and unique toners.)
This last part is the only section that is at least on topic, but to be honest after reading it I have to wonder if you have any idea of what your saying. If you think that the red copper coins in the top sets are dipped out, lifeless, lusterless coins then I can only assume that you have no idea of what those terms mean. The very end of your statement seems to shed some light on the issue, "few interesting and unique toners" Have you considered the possibility that the majority find as made red copper stunning and that your love for tarnish puts you in the minority? Honestly I would have quit the hobby long ago if I had your level of frustration and angst because many collectors prefer red copper over brown.
Eddited to add: Just a suggestion, the registry ATS has custom sets with a section dedicated to toned coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.