Are MS 65 Common Date St Gaudens Double Eagles Really Worth Around $2000 at Today's Gold Price?

bidask · October 19, 2013 6:29AM

At the 2013 ANA I dumped several $20 St Gaudens in NGC and PCGS 65 slabs.

I got $2070 at the time from Heritage and Ampex was offering around 2k.

Browsing around today I saw some offers to buy at around $1900.

Are 65 slabbed double eagles really worth that kind of premium?

I think not.

Did you know the combined population in MS 65 at PCGS and NGC for the dates of 1908 NM, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, and 1928 is over 170,000 coins.

170,000 ??

I think you should hit the bid at $1900 and above and sell every coin you own in 65 this Monday morning.

bosco5041 · October 19, 2013 6:52AM

I knew they were not rare or scarce but 170,000!!!!! It must be the beauty of the Saint that keeps the higher price. They really are a beautiful coin in 65 and higher.

lcoopie · October 19, 2013 7:34AM

that's supply

now what's demand

VanHalen · October 19, 2013 8:33AM

I'll pay $2100 for any 65 with a CAC sticker.

WTCG · October 19, 2013 10:24AM

Prices on those change frequently depending on factors including spot price, demand, etc. There may be lots of them around but they sell very well when they're in demand.

They're worth less than $2000 at this time but that could change either way quickly.

roadrunner · October 19, 2013 11:17AM

170,000 pieces of which probably 50% are duplicates.....means 85,000 to be spread around a nation of over 300 MILL people. Figure 3 coins for every town of 10,000 people. It's still a gem gold type that is needed by every set collector or investor looking to complete a gold type set or just to have one for posterity. They are recognized around the world. It's a classic design that have not been surpassed by today's more sterile AGE. You're getting a gem coin that's at least 80 years old for under a 60% premium to its intrinsic gold content. Compare that to MS65, 64, 63, 62, 61 generic Morgans which bring premiums of from 100% (MS61) to 700% (MS65). That 60% premium to spot value is pretty close to what a circ 1958 wheat penny fetches. I don't see anyone flashing signs for everyone to bail on their wheat cents and Morgan silver dollars. Even cull Morgan dollars bring a similar premium over spot as an MS65 Saint does. And if you can find an unstickered MS65 $20 Saint that is of solid for the grade or higher end quality, it's a bargain at the going rate for generic 65's. CAC 65's bring a hefty premium because so few get stickered (ie 5-15%). It's not hard to convince a newbie investor or collector as to the "value" of a Saint vs say an MS65 Indian cent or $1 gold piece. People often buy what they can understand. They definitely understand a 1 oz gold coin......but not so much a gem Sesqui commem, a nice shield nickel pattern, or a proof seated dollar.

If the MS65 Saints are too common for you, step up to the MS65 $20 Lib at around $3300-$3500 each. Their total pops are under 10,000. Probably 20X tougher than the MS65 Saint. As with the Saint, finding solid for the grade specimens at generic money that aren't yet stickered is not easy....probably close to impossible. MS65 Saints in 1989 were worth around $4,000 each or about 8X the price of gold. When gold hit $1225 for the first time in November 2009, MS65 Saints were $2500...over a 100% premium to spot. No one was complaining them! One could say that at $2,000 today, they're cheaper than they were at $1225 gold from 4 years ago. At successive gold peaks over the past 10 yrs, ($435, $730, $1033, $1226, $1577, $1923) the MS65 Saints have carried at least a 50% premium to spot gold. At $435 gold I can recall them being around $900-$1,000. At $1033 gold I think they were pushing $1800. It appears they've been "overpriced" many times over the past 10 years. I can think of many more coins out there that should be sold at "bid" first thing Monday morning than MS65 Saints.....for instance every circ or unc generic Morgan silver dollar. Yet, for some "strange" reason, collectors and investors love Morgans and buy them in droves, despite the high premiums to spot silver. Next week's homework assignment. Go out and try to find those 170,000 MS65 Saints that are supposedly out there. You might be challenged to find 1,000 coins available. They are spread out far and wide. But you'd have a lot less problem getting 170,000 1 ounce AGE's out of the more than 15 MILLION minted....though still not an easy task. Considering what a BU Merc dime, Walker, or silver dollar costs, the gem MS65 saint at a smaller premium doesn't seem so "insane." Heritage was paying $2070 for them at the ANA for a reason....they had a demand for them. Gold was rallying in August. It's been in a tailspin for most of the past 6 weeks. What was hot in August is now very cold. As 0.9675 ounces of 24k gold gem $20 Saints act as both gold, currency, barter, and a collectible. Given the uncertainty of the world's financial systems, socking away choice/gem Saints doesn't seem such a terrible idea......and a lot easier to carry around than a sack of wheat pennies or Jefferson nickels....two coins which do have real intrinsic value. And Saints are a lot more liquid than your choice/gem Missouri/Sesqui commems. You can sell MS65 generic Saints over the phone in a minute for top dollar....try that with most other classic coins. The prices of most choice/gem generic gold is extremely depressed vs. the 2006-2009 years. It won't be this way forever. Most everyone hates them right now and the bashing has been going on for 7-1/2 years. $10 Indians in MS63-66 were higher back in spring 2006 than they are today....by a lot.

We could probably make this same erroneous comparison of "common" gem saints" to "common" High Relief saints. The HR's have a hefty mintage of 11,250 with most of them being saved. They fetch over $10,000 each for the most part. Choice and gem examples run $20K to $50K. Numerous coin experts will tell you they are common and shouldn't be worth that. But, people love them and that's what they sell for. Gem proof seated dollars are a lot rarer based on populations but bring a lot less money. Pops aren't everything. Gold coins often tend to bring some pretty stiff premiums compared to silver, copper, and nickel coins. If we're going to trash the common gem Saints on Monday morning....let's also dump all the High Reliefs at the same time....including the very common 2009 HR's with a mintage of >100,000. I didn't know they minted so many. There seems to be a theme here with different generations of "Saints." They are always "overpriced" per the experts. I thought the 2009 UHR's at $1650 were way overpriced and couldn't wait to dump the piece I had just bought for a $100 profit. Boy was that stupid (lol). Many people who venture into our hobby are drawn by a coin like the Saint. And they might just want a single gold coin for their efforts....often a choice/gem Saint. It's just the way it is.

Yeah, sign me up for CAC MS65's at $2100 as well.

joebb21 · October 19, 2013 10:59PM

<< 170,000 pieces of which probably 50% are duplicates.....means 85,000 to be spread around a nation of over 300 MILL people. Figure 3 coins for every town of 10,000 people. It's still a gem gold type that is needed by every set collector or investor looking to complete a gold type set or just to have one for posterity. They are recognized around the world. It's a classic design that have not been surpassed by today's more sterile AGE. You're getting a gem coin that's at least 80 years old for under a 60% premium to its intrinsic gold content. Compare that to MS65, 64, 63, 62, 61 generic Morgans which bring premiums of from 100% (MS61) to 700% (MS65). That 60% premium to spot value is pretty close to what a circ 1958 wheat penny fetches. I don't see anyone flashing signs for everyone to bail on their wheat cents and Morgan silver dollars. Even cull Morgan dollars bring a similar premium over spot as an MS65 Saint does. And if you can find an unstickered MS65 $20 Saint that is of solid for the grade or higher end quality, it's a bargain at the going rate for generic 65's. CAC 65's bring a hefty premium because so few get stickered (ie 5-15%). It's not hard to convince a newbie investor or collector as to the "value" of a Saint vs say an MS65 Indian cent or $1 gold piece. People often buy what they can understand. They definitely understand a 1 oz gold coin......but not so much a gem Sesqui commem, a nice shield nickel pattern, or a proof seated dollar.

If the MS65 Saints are too common for you, step up to the MS65 $20 Lib at around $3300-$3500 each. Their total pops are under 10,000. Probably 20X tougher than the MS65 Saint. As with the Saint, finding solid for the grade specimens at generic money that aren't yet stickered is not easy....probably close to impossible. MS65 Saints in 1989 were worth around $4,000 each or about 8X the price of gold. When gold hit $1225 for the first time in November 2009, MS65 Saints were $2500...over a 100% premium to spot. No one was complaining them! One could say that at $2,000 today, they're cheaper than they were at $1225 gold from 4 years ago. At successive gold peaks over the past 10 yrs, ($435, $730, $1033, $1226, $1577, $1923) the MS65 Saints have carried at least a 50% premium to spot gold. At $435 gold I can recall them being around $900-$1,000. At $1033 gold I think they were pushing $1800. It appears they've been "overpriced" many times over the past 10 years. I can think of many more coins out there that should be sold at "bid" first thing Monday morning than MS65 Saints.....for instance every circ or unc generic Morgan silver dollar. Yet, for some "strange" reason, collectors and investors love Morgans and buy them in droves, despite the high premiums to spot silver. Next week's homework assignment. Go out and try to find those 170,000 MS65 Saints that are supposedly out there. You might be challenged to find 1,000 coins available. They are spread out far and wide. But you'd have a lot less problem getting 170,000 1 ounce AGE's out of the more than 15 MILLION minted....though still not an easy task. Considering what a BU Merc dime, Walker, or silver dollar costs, the gem MS65 saint at a smaller premium doesn't seem so "insane." Heritage was paying $2070 for them at the ANA for a reason....they had a demand for them. Gold was rallying in August. It's been in a tailspin for most of the past 6 weeks. What was hot in August is now very cold. As 0.9675 ounces of 24k gold gem $20 Saints act as both gold, currency, barter, and a collectible. Given the uncertainty of the world's financial systems, socking away choice/gem Saints doesn't seem such a terrible idea......and a lot easier to carry around than a sack of wheat pennies or Jefferson nickels....two coins which do have real intrinsic value. And Saints are a lot more liquid than your choice/gem Missouri/Sesqui commems. You can sell MS65 generic Saints over the phone in a minute for top dollar....try that with most other classic coins. The prices of most choice/gem generic gold is extremely depressed vs. the 2006-2009 years. It won't be this way forever. Most everyone hates them right now and the bashing has been going on for 7-1/2 years. $10 Indians in MS63-66 were higher back in spring 2006 than they are today....by a lot.

We could probably make this same erroneous comparison of "common" gem saints" to "common" High Relief saints. The HR's have a hefty mintage of 11,250 with most of them being saved. They fetch over $10,000 each for the most part. Choice and gem examples run $20K to $50K. Numerous coin experts will tell you they are common and shouldn't be worth that. But, people love them and that's what they sell for. Gem proof seated dollars are a lot rarer based on populations but bring a lot less money. Pops aren't everything. Gold coins often tend to bring some pretty stiff premiums compared to silver, copper, and nickel coins. If we're going to trash the common gem Saints on Monday morning....let's also dump all the High Reliefs at the same time....including the very common 2009 HR's with a mintage of >100,000. I didn't know they minted so many. There seems to be a theme here with different generations of "Saints." They are always "overpriced" per the experts. I thought the 2009 UHR's at $1650 were way overpriced and couldn't wait to dump the piece I had just bought for a $100 profit. Boy was that stupid (lol). Many people who venture into our hobby are drawn by a coin like the Saint. And they might just want a single gold coin for their efforts....often a choice/gem Saint. It's just the way it is.

Yeah, sign me up for CAC MS65's at $2100 as well. >>

Always love reading the Roadrunner reports- thanks!

Im sure there are other great deals in generics, but ms64 $2.5 Libs at under $600?

AMRC · October 19, 2013 11:17PM

Just a point on the CAC stickered Saints. I love the fact that CAC loves copper spots/streaks on the gold coins. I think some copper streaks look great, and screams original to me. I have heard from more than one dealer that they have a hard time selling Gold with Copper Spots. So if you do see these in a dealers cabinet and they have not been sent to CAC, I would look them over to make they are solid for the grade and buy them at non-CAC prices, then send them in.

Any pre-33 Gold in GEM is worth owning for the long term. Not only is it a great coin to own, but the fact that a huge amount of it value is intrinsic (still) is a very comforting factor.

Enjoyed the note from Roadrunner. Great facts. Many coins in Copper, Nickel or Silver, that are not necessarily considered "rare," have high multiples to intrinsic value that make the Pre-33 gold look like an opportunity at current market prices.

roadrunner · October 20, 2013 1:02AM

I'm sure there are other great deals in generics, but ms64 $2.5 Libs at under $600?

Not quite that low yet. The big boyz are selling them for around $650-$675 which suggest a buy price at $600 or higher. Considering that these were $1475 in early 2008 (at $1000/oz gold)
and again reached $1300+ two years ago, the current values are pretty low. How about MS64 $5 Libs at $850? And once again the MS63 $10 Indians and Libs are under $1,000 (a 55% premium to
their intrinsic gold spot price......about the same premium as cull Morgan dollars and XF 1958 wheat cents). Fwiw I remember buying quantities of MS64 $2-1/2 Libs in 1991-1992 for about $1300 each.
The price of gold was in the mid $300's. Silver at that time was putting in a long term bottom at $3.60/oz.

In checking out ebay I see the going rate for 5,000 count bags of wheaties is from $175 to $250. Buyers would like to get them for $175-$200 while the sellers seem to want to get $225-$250. A few
are looking even higher at $275-$300. Even at the low range of $175 per bag (3.5 cents per coin) that comes to a 62% premium at current intrinsic metal value of 2.16c per coin. In the $225 range the
premium is 108%. So forget circ wheats as a comparison to MS65 Saints....the wheaties are much more expensive vs. intrinsic metal value. But the cull Morgans are still a hot ticket if you don't mind buying
a lot of silver polish and toothbrushes to keep your culls shiny.

Wheat cent bags on ebay

Cougar1978 · October 20, 2013 1:16AM

<< Just a point on the CAC stickered Saints. I love the fact that CAC loves copper spots/streaks on the gold coins. I think some copper streaks look great, and screams original to me. I have heard from more than one dealer that they have a hard time selling Gold with Copper Spots. So if you do see these in a dealers cabinet and they have not been sent to CAC, I would look them over to make they are solid for the grade and buy them at non-CAC prices, then send them in.

Any pre-33 Gold in GEM is worth owning for the long term. Not only is it a great coin to own, but the fact that a huge amount of it value is intrinsic (still) is a very comforting factor.

Enjoyed the note from Roadrunner. Great facts. Many coins in Copper, Nickel or Silver, that are not necessarily considered "rare," have high multiples to intrinsic value that make the Pre-33 gold look like an opportunity at current market prices. >>

I too have noticed copper spot / streak gold coins with CAC stickers. Even before CAC, I have found such coins can be hard sells with a large number of collectors. I have owned some copper streaked examples which were very attractive.

Yes pre-33 Gems are worth owning and there is a large demand for these from type set collectors. There is noting like the allure of Early 20 th Century US Gold. Starting a 4 piece type set of these is a worthy goal and a project that can be upgraded along the way.

bidask · October 20, 2013 1:52AM

Roadrunner I think the premium trend is going down over time on 65 slabbed st gaudens coins.

Even at 50% premium they are to high in my opinion.

There is no logical reason for them to be that high or certainly no logical reason
that the premium can expand.

Let's say you have $140,000 to spend today on one of these 2 choices....

Let me ask you would you rather have 70 st gaudens slabbed 65 at $2000 each?

Or would you rather have 100 krugerands at $1400 each. (I think actually available cheaper)

But let's say those are you choices.

Roadrunner what would you choose?

I will take the Krugerands.

roadrunner · October 20, 2013 2:17AM

<< Roadrunner I think the premium trend is going down over time on 65 slabbed st gaudens coins.

Even at 50% premium they are to high in my opinion.

There is no logical reason for them to be that high or certainly no logical reason
that the premium can expand.

Let's say you have $140,000 to spend today on one of these 2 choices....

Let me ask you would you rather have 70 st gaudens slabbed 65 at $2000 each?

Or would you rather have 100 krugerands at $1400 each. (I think actually available cheaper)

But let's say those are you choices.

Roadrunner what would you choose?

I will take the Krugerands. >>

I wouldn't even consider the Krugs due to their ownership banning on the 1970's. If I were to go the bullion route it would be US coins or our close allies (ie AGE's, Maples, etc.). Krugs vs. 65 Saints? Saints all day long as
that's not even a horse race to me.

In the current market I can get the MS65 Saints at cheaper than $2,000....maybe even at $1,900 if I worked out a large buy program with a dealer or two I know. I'd take the Saints over bullion as long as I get to pick them.
At $1900 I don't want real low end 65 Saints or glorified 64+ coins in 65 holders. Saints in the range of 65.2 to 65.4 would work just fine. While I don't expect to find many 65.4 or 65.5 since those would be CAC quality and
worth more than $2,000, a 65.3 quality level is fine. You'd probably have to pass on 70% or more of the saints offered to you to find more pleasing and totally orig 65's.

While I agree with you that saint premiums have been dropping on this 2 year gold correction, it won't always be the case. Generic gold premiums have been crushed. But, for some reason the 65 and 66 saints have been
holding up pretty good. I believe the reason is a combination of two things. One, the gem saints are sniffing out a change in capital controls and future currency devaluations that are coming down the pike. Being able to get
one ounce gold coins in your possession is going to get a lot tougher. And two, why gem saints and not the 63's and 64's? I think the fact that gem saints are further beyond the definition of "bullion" coins than the lower
grades are helping them. In a way this relates back to the confiscation issue and collectible vs. bullion coins. When/if gold returns to $2,000 ounce, the MS65 saints (and all of generic gold) will recover a substantial amount of
these lost premiums. Also true though is that at a high enough gold price, the premiums in MS65 saints will be mostly lost. At $3,000/oz gold I'd expect MS65 saints to sell for $3200-$3500....20% premium to spot or less.
But until we get back to $1600-$1900/oz gold, I'm not too worried about saints losing all their premium. MS65 saints are probably more promotable than the 62's to 64's, another plus for them. How do you promote Krugs?

If I had $140K to spend on MS65 Saints I still wouldn't do it. I'd park at least one third of money in other underpriced gold generics such as MS64 $2-1/2 Libs, $5 Libs, $10 Indians/Libs. Also MS63 $5 Libs, $10's. I'd make it
a point to buy nice coins for the grade. I've never liked buying just bullion gold coins. The collector force in me is still too strong. Every Krug or AGE looks the same to me....not the case for Saints though where is seems
every individual coin has its own unique look and character. If gold were to continue down to say $1100 from here, I'd expect the MS65 Saints to hold their value at least as well as Krugs. And if gold should take a shot here to say $1400-$1500, I'd expect them to gain premium vs. the Krugs.

CCC2010 · October 20, 2013 3:22AM

Thanks for the insight RR. I learned a lot from this thread.

bidask · October 20, 2013 3:30AM

<< 

<< Roadrunner I think the premium trend is going down over time on 65 slabbed st gaudens coins.

Even at 50% premium they are to high in my opinion.

There is no logical reason for them to be that high or certainly no logical reason
that the premium can expand.

Let's say you have $140,000 to spend today on one of these 2 choices....

Let me ask you would you rather have 70 st gaudens slabbed 65 at $2000 each?

Or would you rather have 100 krugerands at $1400 each. (I think actually available cheaper)

But let's say those are you choices.

Roadrunner what would you choose?

I will take the Krugerands. >>

I wouldn't even consider the Krugs due to their ownership banning on the 1970's. If I were to go the bullion route it would be US coins or our close allies (ie AGE's, Maples, etc.). Krugs vs. 65 Saints? Saints all day long as
that's not even a horse race to me.

In the current market I can get the MS65 Saints at cheaper than $2,000....maybe even at $1,900 if I worked out a large buy program with a dealer or two I know. I'd take the Saints over bullion as long as I get to pick them.
At $1900 I don't want real low end 65 Saints or glorified 64+ coins in 65 holders. Saints in the range of 65.2 to 65.4 would work just fine. While I don't expect to find many 65.4 or 65.5 since those would be CAC quality and
worth more than $2,000, a 65.3 quality level is fine. You'd probably have to pass on 70% or more of the saints offered to you to find more pleasing and totally orig 65's.

While I agree with you that saint premiums have been dropping on this 2 year gold correction, it won't always be the case. Generic gold premiums have been crushed. But, for some reason the 65 and 66 saints have been
holding up pretty good. I believe the reason is a combination of two things. One, the gem saints are sniffing out a change in capital controls and future currency devaluations that are coming down the pike. Being able to get
one ounce gold coins in your possession is going to get a lot tougher. And two, why gem saints and not the 63's and 64's? I think the fact that gem saints are further beyond the definition of "bullion" coins than the lower
grades are helping them. In a way this relates back to the confiscation issue and collectible vs. bullion coins. When/if gold returns to $2,000 ounce, the MS65 saints (and all of generic gold) will recover a substantial amount of
these lost premiums. Also true though is that at a high enough gold price, the premiums in MS65 saints will be mostly lost. At $3,000/oz gold I'd expect MS65 saints to sell for $3200-$3500....20% premium to spot or less.
But until we get back to $1600-$1900/oz gold, I'm not too worried about saints losing all their premium. MS65 saints are probably more promotable than the 62's to 64's, another plus for them. How do you promote Krugs?

If I had $140K to spend on MS65 Saints I still wouldn't do it. I'd park at least one third of money in other underpriced gold generics such as MS64 $2-1/2 Libs, $5 Libs, $10 Indians/Libs. Also MS63 $5 Libs, $10's. I'd make it
a point to buy nice coins for the grade. I've never liked buying just bullion gold coins. The collector force in me is still too strong. Every Krug or AGE looks the same to me....not the case for Saints though where is seems
every individual coin has its own unique look and character. If gold were to continue down to say $1100 from here, I'd expect the MS65 Saints to hold their value at least as well as Krugs. And if gold should take a shot here to say $1400-$1500, I'd expect them to gain premium vs. the Krugs. >>

Your building in exceptions to the simple gist of my OP.

For example you state:

"At $1900 I don't want real low end 65 Saints or glorified 64+ coins in 65 holders. Saints in the range of 65.2 to 65.4 would work just fine. While I don't expect to find many 65.4 or 65.5 since those would be CAC quality and
worth more than $2,000, a 65.3 quality level is fine. You'd probably have to pass on 70% or more of the saints offered to you to find more pleasing and totally orig 65's."

Fine, use the Canadian maple leafs example.....those can be bought in quantity around $1350 and in quantity of 100 perhaps a discount ........even further strengthening my argument of the whats right to buy with 140k today between the 2 choices....

Krugerrands are even cheaper.

According to Monex with 140k I could buy about 103 maple leafs at todays gold prices even not assuming a discount for quantity,

Your assuming you can 'pick' at $1900 ........and in your own words you state you would have to pass on 70% or more of the coins offered you.

Edited to say you agree with my assertion: According to you 70% of the slabbed 65 saints out there are not worth $2000. Thank you.

Mine was a simple straightforward question.

wondercoin · October 20, 2013 3:48AM

"I thought the 2009 UHR's at $1650 were way overpriced and couldn't wait to dump the piece I had just bought for a $100 profit. Boy was that stupid (lol)."

Actually, as I recall, the Mint issue price was even way less than that ... wasn't it around $1,100/coin give or take! So, if I recall correctly, selling at $1,750 was close to a 50% return within the first year. Not too shabby!

I also do not have a big problem with a $2,000 price level on a gem Saint. But, I would personally rather "squirrel away" the $2,000 in, say, a PR70FS ultra modern gold coin (or two) with a very "low" mintage. But, that is just me.

Wondercoin

BloodMan · October 20, 2013 5:18AM

Roadrunner--thanks for the great insights on the gem saint market!

roadrunner · October 20, 2013 5:26AM

Edited to say you agree with my assertion: According to you 70% of the slabbed 65 saints out these are not worth $2000. Thank you.

Not really. Your original assertion was to buy Krugs. And I wouldn't want them period. I'd take generic low end 65 Saints at $1900 before taking those.

As far as Maples and AGE's, I'd still prefer the Saints. And while 70% of 65's may not be fully to my liking, they are still worth $1900-$1950 in the current market place.
Even those not to my standards would still be 64+ coins in my mind and probably worth close to $1800 each. As long as we're playing this game of rejecting 70% of what's
offered, bring me some MS64 or MS65 capped bust halves. I've typically passed on >90% of the coins I've seen. Doesn't make the market think any less of those coins (ie I'm not the market).
You could probably apply the 70-90% rule to most anything at a coin show when offering coins to any dealer. They'll pass on the majority of coins offered to them during the course of a show based on
either price, quality, lack of customers or flipability, or what have you.

Wondercoin brings up a good point that there are other modern choices that are quite worthy (ie PF70's with low mintage). Finding quantities of those may be difficult.

Bloodman, this is only my view of this market. It may not be the right view or match with anyone else's. My intentions were to provide an alternate view to Bidask's snapshot of this market. One many's
junk is another person's treasure.

Baley · October 20, 2013 5:33AM

I also do not have a big problem with a $2,000 price level on a gem Saint. But, I would personally rather "squirrel away" the $2,000 in, say, a PR70FS ultra modern gold coin (or two) with a very "low" mintage. But, that is just me.

Agreed, IMO $2000 for a gem saint is about right with gold at ~$1300. My reasoning: even though they're common, they've got $700 worth of "neat and pretty" in them, as well as some "history". As for the modern, it might have less history, and the neat and pretty part are subject to the market.

I would personally "squirrel away" pre-1806 US coins in whatever highest grade/eye appeal you can get for $2000 a pop, but that's "just me" as well

bidask · October 20, 2013 5:40AM

<< Edited to say you agree with my assertion: According to you 70% of the slabbed 65 saints out these are not worth $2000. Thank you.

Not really. Your original assertion was to buy Krugs. And I wouldn't want them period. I'd take generic low end 65 Saints at $1900 before taking those.

As far as Maples and AGE's, I'd still prefer the Saints. And while 70% of 65's may not be fully to my liking, they are still worth $1900-$1950 in the current market place.
Even those not to my standards would still be 64+ coins in my mind and probably worth close to $1800 each. As long as we're playing this game of rejecting 70% of what's
offered, bring me some MS64 or MS65 capped bust halves. I've typically passed on >90% of the coins I've seen. Doesn't make the market think any less of those coins (ie I'm not the market).

Wondercoin brings up some good points that there are other modern choices that are quite worthy. >>

.

You are changing your tune:

'As far as Maples and AGE's, I'd still prefer the Saints. And while 70% of 65's may not be fully to my liking, they are still worth $1900-$1950 in the current market place'

Ok, well we would spend 140k differently......

( you would take the saints and I would take the krugs or the maples)..... and that's what makes a market.

roadrunner · October 20, 2013 5:49AM

If I were to go the bullion route it would be US coins or our close allies (ie AGE's, Maples, etc.). Krugs vs. 65 Saints? Saints all day long as
that's not even a horse race to me.

That was my original tune. "If" I were to go the bullion route. But, I've made it clear so far that Saints are my preferred tune, always have been. My tune didn't change during this thread.

I don't have any problem with Baley's choice of pre-1806 coinage. I'd only make the same assertion that 70% (or more) of what's out there in pre-1806 holdered coins wouldn't please me.
Indeed, it's what makes a market. Problem-free stuff in any part of the pre-1933 market is not always easy to come by. 85,000 gem one ounce, pre-1930 gold coins are a drop in the bucket
compared to the world's above ground gold inventory. I'm not particularly well versed in foreign gold and silver coins of the 1880-1933 period. But are there any other sovereign gold or silver coins
of that era that are comparable to the generic gem Saints and Morgans in both quantity and price? (non-restrikes).

Overdate · October 20, 2013 5:55AM

From a collector-on-a-limited-budget perspective, I would rather buy a decent 64 for $400 less.

bidask · October 20, 2013 5:58AM

<< If I were to go the bullion route it would be US coins or our close allies (ie AGE's, Maples, etc.). Krugs vs. 65 Saints? Saints all day long as
that's not even a horse race to me.

That was my original tune. "If" I were to go the bullion route. But, I've made it clear so far that Saints are my preferred tune, always have been. My tune didn't change during this thread.

I don't have any problem with Baley's choice of pre-1806 coinage. I'd only make the same assertion that 70% (or more) of what's out there in pre-1806 holdered coins wouldn't please me.
Indeed, it's what makes a market. Problem-free stuff in any part of the pre-1933 market is not always easy to come by. >>

This is what you said in one post:

"At $1900 I don't want real low end 65 Saints or glorified 64+ coins in 65 holders. Saints in the range of 65.2 to 65.4 would work just fine. While I don't expect to find many 65.4 or 65.5 since those would be CAC quality and
worth more than $2,000, a 65.3 quality level is fine. You'd probably have to pass on 70% or more of the saints offered to you to find more pleasing and totally orig 65's."

This is what you said in another post:

"..........I'd take generic low end 65 Saints at $1900 before taking those.
As far as Maples and AGE's, I'd still prefer the Saints. And while 70% of 65's may not be fully to my liking, they are still worth $1900-$1950 in the current market place."

Which is it?

roadrunner · October 20, 2013 6:02AM

<< From a collector-on-a-limited-budget perspective, I would rather buy a decent 64 for $400 less. >>

Probably not possible unless you do it raw as the current spread between slabbed 64's and 65's is about $300. And when you specify decent 64 (ie CAC quality) you
probably just shrunk that gap to $200. But there are enough nice 64's out there still unstickered and unplused if you have the time to look for them. Last one I saw at a local show
was a MS64 1908 in an ogh. The coin had the color and luster of a MS66. The dealer was asking close to MS65 money for the coin (I couldn't buy it). I too would love to cherry pick
all the strong 64's out there without paying more than a $0-$50 premium. But the line of sellers willing to do that is quite short.

roadrunner · October 20, 2013 6:05AM

Which is it?

It's both statements.....as you mixed two totally different ideas/situations. Thought I was being pretty clear there.

In summary:

1. I don't like Krugs.
2. I would take low end Saints over Krugs if I was under duress and no other coins were available.
3. Decent MS65 saints in the 65.2 to 65.5 range are what I prefer over ANY bullion coins.
4. I would consider AGE's and Maples if there was no ready MS65 Saints available. But first, I'd consider MS62-MS64 $20 Libs and Saints as well.
5. I'd take the Krugs if there was nothing else left in the world on that day (ie everyone was old out of Saints and $20 Libs in all grades, all proof AGE's and proof Buff's were gone, no Libertads, etc.).

BillJones · October 20, 2013 6:33AM

I will relate this story about krugerrands. When I was a dealer a client consigned ten or twelve pieces to me to sell at the winter FUN show. I had hard time finding even ONE dealer who would make an offer on them. This was well after Nelson Mandela had been elected president and finished his term. When I did sell them it was to a well known bulk lot dealer for a little less than melt.

Nic · October 20, 2013 7:15AM

At $400 per once the premium for 64's was ~$250 or ~60%. At $900 (financial crisis) $550 or ~60%. Spreads are important and sometimes change quickly.

Back to the subject of 65's. I had no problem understandind RR. I've also had no problems selling KR's though not my 1st choice.

K

bidask · October 20, 2013 7:47AM

<< If I were to go the bullion route it would be US coins or our close allies (ie AGE's, Maples, etc.). Krugs vs. 65 Saints? Saints all day long as
that's not even a horse race to me.

That was my original tune. "If" I were to go the bullion route. But, I've made it clear so far that Saints are my preferred tune, always have been. My tune didn't change during this thread.

I don't have any problem with Baley's choice of pre-1806 coinage. I'd only make the same assertion that 70% (or more) of what's out there in pre-1806 holdered coins wouldn't please me.
Indeed, it's what makes a market. Problem-free stuff in any part of the pre-1933 market is not always easy to come by. 85,000 gem one ounce, pre-1930 gold coins are a drop in the bucket
compared to the world's above ground gold inventory. I'm not particularly well versed in foreign gold and silver coins of the 1880-1933 period. But are there any other sovereign gold or silver coins
of that era that are comparable to the generic gem Saints and Morgans in both quantity and price? (non-restrikes). >>

your original tune is you would take the saints over bullion if you got to pick.

My OP is not about cac coins or ms 65.2 versus ms 65.3 or 65.4, 65.5 or 65.6, or someone's idea of what a gem is.

It also not about other kinds of US gold you can buy.

My post is also not about your favorite close dealer letting you pick.

I made a statement by which I stand that ms 65 slabbed st gaudens gold is overpriced. That the premium
for such coins I believe high even at 50%.

I also said with 140k at today's gold price I would rather buy bullion in krugs or maples than
ms 65 slabbed st gaudens.

I thought I was pretty clear.

wondercoin · October 20, 2013 10:16AM

Just by way of example, take a freshly minted 2013-W Burnished Gold Eagle in PCGS-MS70FS. Back on 8/10/13 they were $1,975 Buy It Now on ebay and a month or so before that they were $1,800/coin retail and you could have bought dozens and dozens of them (maybe even 100+) at that level with a single phone call to any number of modern coin dealers (they were on the BST Board in large quantities as well at $1,800/coin). Here is a coin that is likely to have a sub-10,000 mintage when the US Mint finally stops selling it and might even be closer to a 6,000 - 7,000 mintage (we'll see when the Mint stops selling them). The entire mintage of this coin (and many others) will be a tiny, tiny fraction of the PCGS pop of a single selected date of common MS65 Saints! An example (in my opinion, and yours may vary) of a sub-$2,000 ultra modern 1 oz. gold coin with a "fighting chance" to outperform gem MS65 Saints (and possibly by a wide margin) for the same price. In fact, those who bought the coins offered on the BST board at $1,800/coin (or elsewhere at the same retail price) have already seen a coin move up to around $2,400/coin (33% in about 90-120 days) even with the concurrent retreating spot gold price. Meanwhile, the Saint appears to have drifted from around $2,000 to $1,900/coin during the same time as reported by the OP.

Plenty of opportunities out there to spend $1,800-$2,000 wisely. And, I am sure plenty of them even better than my above example. No MS65 Saints for me though.

As always, just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

bidask · June 26, 2019 10:59PM

Given today’s gold prices what would you buy as an investment ?

MS 65 saints or gold bullion ?

Justacommeman · June 26, 2019 11:54PM

Anyone know off hand what the bid on 66 and 66+ PCGS CAC saints is?

m

ReadyFireAim · June 27, 2019 3:46AM

@Justacommeman said:
Anyone know off hand what the bid on 66 and 66+ PCGS CAC saints is?

It all falls apart at MS66
Plastic is of little use & the bean doesn't help that much either.

It's because you have widgets on one side & "1/2 way to moon money" coins on the other.

66 has things that just missed 67 & over-graded 65
The spread is nearly 5 figures in one grade depending on which "common" we are talking about.

ElmerFusterpuck · June 27, 2019 6:15AM

I've seen 66 and 66+ CAC Saints priced at borderline moon money at some shows. I just can't see paying that large of a premium for that sticker. Yes, I know the line about so many of them being "overgraded", but I'm not willing to get buried deeply for it either, especially on a common date.

Gazes · June 27, 2019 6:20AM

I read a report recently that at a major show $20 liberty and Saints were basically trading like 90% silver--very little premium for the higher grades.

Justacommeman · June 27, 2019 12:05PM

@ReadyFireAim said:

@Justacommeman said:
Anyone know off hand what the bid on 66 and 66+ PCGS CAC saints is?

It all falls apart at MS66
Plastic is of little use & the bean doesn't help that much either.

It's because you have widgets on one side & "1/2 way to moon money" coins on the other.

66 has things that just missed 67 & over-graded 65
The spread is nearly 5 figures in one grade depending on which "common" we are talking about.

FWIW

Bid is at or near $3525 for 66 CAC PCGS Saints. Ask is probably at $3850

Bid is at or near $4825 for 66+ CAC PCGS Saints. Ask is probably at $5200

m

logger7 · June 27, 2019 12:20PM

I'd think MS65 Saints are worth under $1600 at today's prices. I would check ebay. Sellers usually raise their prices in tandem with the gold increase but unless the metal stays up for a while, interest often is not there.

ReadyFireAim · June 27, 2019 12:27PM

@Justacommeman said:
FWIW
Bid is at or near $3525 for 66 CAC PCGS Saints. Ask is probably at $3850
Bid is at or near $4825 for 66+ CAC PCGS Saints. Ask is probably at $5200

Apostasy.
This sums up much that is wrong with the hobby.

Elmhurst · June 27, 2019 12:56PM

I dumped an ICG 1928 in 65 a few months ago for a decent price, can't remember exactly but well above melt. I think it would have crossed but not pass CAC. Figured not worth bothering to find out.

ReadyFireAim · June 27, 2019 1:20PM

@ElmerFusterpuck said:
I've seen 66 and 66+ CAC Saints priced at borderline moon money at some shows. I just can't see paying that large of a >premium for that sticker.

Maybe it isn't the sticker.
Perhaps I should start going to shows again.
It sounds like a few dealers need a good case cleaning

Justacommeman · June 27, 2019 1:45PM

Here is the rub. The TPG’s screwed the pooch on Saints especially at the 65 grade level a long time ago. If any one coin could be pointed out as patient zero for gradeflation it’s “gem” Saints that aren’t gem. Lots of dogs in 65 holders. CAC is typically tough on Gem Saints. If I was in the market for Saints this is where I would consider buying numismatically and investment wise. JMO and observation.

m

joebb21 · June 27, 2019 2:34PM

@Justacommeman said:
Here is the rub. The TPG’s screwed the pooch on Saints especially at the 65 grade level a long time ago. If any one coin could be pointed out as patient zero for gradeflation it’s “gem” Saints that aren’t gem. Lots of dogs in 65 holders. CAC is typically tough on Gem Saints. If I was in the market for Saints this is where I would consider buying numismatically and investment wise. JMO and observation.

m

I would say most ms66's would not sticker as ms65's

Justacommeman · June 27, 2019 2:48PM

@joebb21 said:

@Justacommeman said:
Here is the rub. The TPG’s screwed the pooch on Saints especially at the 65 grade level a long time ago. If any one coin could be pointed out as patient zero for gradeflation it’s “gem” Saints that aren’t gem. Lots of dogs in 65 holders. CAC is typically tough on Gem Saints. If I was in the market for Saints this is where I would consider buying numismatically and investment wise. JMO and observation.

m

I would say most ms66's would not sticker as ms65's

Agree.

m

ReadyFireAim · June 27, 2019 9:17PM

@joebb21 said:
I would say most ms66's would not sticker as ms65's

Like I was saying.
BIG bunch-up at 66 because they don't put 67 on more than a few.
Non-CAC 66 when I bought it...

jmski52 · June 28, 2019 4:56AM

Pretty coin, RFA!

Are MS 65 Common Date St Gaudens Double Eagles Really Worth Around $2000 at Today's Gold Price?

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