Where's the Drapery?

MrHalfDime · May 1, 2013 10:36AM

I realize that most TPG's, including our host, do not always attribute every coin that is submitted to them according to the current reference books on the various series. But when they do, they more often than not get the attribution wrong. Granted, for a series like the Liberty Seated half dimes, proper attributions to Valentine numbers are almost an impossibility due to the relatively poor quality of the available literature. But being able to properly distinguish an 1840 No Drapery half dime from a With Drapery half dime is hardly rocket science. I do not mean to criticize the eBay seller here, as he simply posted the coin with the description on the holder. But the TPG should be able to properly identify this coin as an obvious 'No Drapery' issue, or they should not list any description at all. The coin has a starting bid equal to the listed PCGS EF-40 price for a 'With Drapery' issue, which is almost twice the 'No Drapery' coin price. The error is compounded due to the improper identification on the insert.

Walkerguy21D · May 1, 2013 10:47AM

Maybe this one was struck after the die was heavily polished, making the drapery appear to be absent

Sorry, couldn't resist. I feel the same as you, when I see large cent in a TPG holder blatantly misattributed, like saying Silly Head when
it's obviously a Head of '38, etc.

Staircoins · May 1, 2013 10:54AM

Oops!

Perhaps the seller would benefit from a gently worded message with a link to a photo showing the difference ...

seateddime · May 1, 2013 10:58AM

It is just proof that you need to look at the coin and not just the plastic.

I purchased a nice mint state 1926 D dime very cheap because they forgot to add the D to the label in the holder and Heritage did not discover the error.

habaraca · May 1, 2013 11:56AM

Could this be a counterfeit slab?

Taylor101 · May 1, 2013 12:23PM

It is just another way of saying that you need to watch what you have.
Taylor

NumisOxide · May 1, 2013 1:31PM

I bought a 1839 No Drapery seated half dollar misattributed as a With drapery example by the old ANACS once. Got it for a good price!

commoncents05 · May 1, 2013 1:36PM

<< <i>Could this be a counterfeit slab? >>

No.

-Paul

Billet7 · May 1, 2013 2:05PM

Mechanical error, PCGS will be glad to reholder it for you.

BustHalfBrian · May 1, 2013 2:11PM

It happens

valente151 · May 1, 2013 2:17PM

Well all they'd need to do is look at the rock and shield, or so a very helpful expert once told me!!!

yosclimber · May 1, 2013 7:24PM

There is a nomenclature issue which may be part of the problem.
I prefer the phrase "Extra Drapery", which is used in Breen's Encyclopedia,
because even the "no drapery" has drapery under the upper arm.
But the Valentine "no drapery / drapery" seems deeply entrenched.

LochNESS · May 1, 2013 8:15PM

One could argue that anyone who grades millions of coins a year makes mistakes, but they are the experts and this is fairly easy to spot with a naked eye.

My guess is that it was properly attributed on the grader's form, but the data entry assistant accidentally clicked the wrong box with his/her mouse, thus printing a label with the wrong info. Yep, check boxes. That's my theory or something like it. What... you didn't think they manually typed all those words did you? for each label? That would take forever.

MrHalfDime · May 1, 2013 10:03PM

Valente151 and Yosclimber each make a very good point about the 'nomenclature issue' relating to the designations "No Drapery" and "With Drapery" for the 1840 Liberty seated half dimes and other denominations. While it is true that Daniel Valentine did use these descriptors, I will not lay all of the blame for the confusion entirely at his feet. He did provide more complete descriptions in the text of his 1931 monograph, including descriptions like "The shield is now upright and the rock behind the figure does not project as far. The legend on the reverse is composed of taller letters", all of which are much more easily identifiable. Of course, printing all of this on a slab insert is a bit tedious. Of the many truly significant changes to the original Gobrecht design made by Robert Ball Hughes in 1840, it mystifies me why we seem to focus only on the least significant of all - the presence or absence of a fold of drapery at Miss Liberty's elbow. Look at Staircoins excellent photographs to see the many significant differences.

Valente151, I don't know who your "very helpful expert" was, but he appears to be very well informed

BillJones · May 2, 2013 4:48AM

<< <i>I bought a 1839 No Drapery seated half dollar misattributed as a With drapery example by the old ANACS once. Got it for a good price!

>>

The 1839 No Drapery half dollar is the least distinctive of all the No Drapery types. That might explain why you were able to find that bargain.

yosclimber · May 2, 2013 7:48AM

Yes, Valentine's work/book is amazing with all the details it includes and the large number of varieties he identified.
(Though a few are frustratingly vague).
Of course, we now know due to 1840-o V6 that the reverse letter size is not sufficient to identify the "Extra Drapery" obverse hub,
although Valentine did not really imply this.
I once found a dateless V6 and sold it on ebay for $100 - I called it "possibly the worst known example". :-)
(It had the 1839 drapery and large letter reverse).

This type of nomenclature issue arises fairly frequently, because there is a tradeoff between a concise word or two
and a longer but more descriptive label with a few more words.
Breen notes many such instances in his Encyclopedia.
Probably the most frequent one is "Small Date" vs. "Large Date" which can mean many different things,
and often relative to a particular year instead of an absolute. "Small o" / "Medium O" / "Large O" have the same problem.

And we half dime fans are all too aware of the varieties frequently misattributed on ebay:
- 1838 small stars
- 1848 large date
I would expect these to be identified more accurately on slabs than on ebay,
but there will be mistakes, either due to processing errors, or occasional lack of knowledge / misunderstanding of the identifying variety details.

Where's the Drapery?

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