Tungsten Filled 10oz Gold Bar found in Jewelery District in NYC
theump
Posts: 634 ✭✭
Slightly OT, but related story.
Look for this to be a growing problem as the price of gold keeps going higher.
Fake Gold Bar
Look for this to be a growing problem as the price of gold keeps going higher.
Fake Gold Bar
0
Comments
MTB is an authorized purchaser from the US Mint
Looks like it took a complicated operation to make that, it's not like they drilled it out and filled it in a garage.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
i think that is the same type that was found in the fort knox reserves
.
<< <i>How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it? >>
I really have no idea how this could be done in practice, but what comes to mind is holding a dixie cup filled with water over a lit candle. Water seems like it would boil away too fast, though. Maybe use oil.
Another idea is that they sawed the gold in half, hollowed it out to the spec of the tungsten insert and then sandwiched it back together and cleaned up the seam.
I am obviously not a metallurgist, so these might be ridiculous ideas
<< <i>How is this even attempted. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F, and Tungsten at 6192 degrees F.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
Wouldnt it be much easier to gold plate a tungstun bar ? That just leaves us with they can replicate the assay marks , no big surprise there.
Something is going on here, and I don't think the article is telling the accurate story.
From the article, fake front:
Compare to a genuine front:
Note the position of the right end of the "E" in SUISSE, compared the the position of the left side of the "E" in OUNCES. Also note the thickness of the letters on the fake, and the font style on the serial number.
Now the fake back:
Compare to a genuine back:
Note the 2-D flat countours of the fake back.
This is NOT a hollowed-out genuine bar. It was stamped or embossed by fake dies.
Unwrapped image from article:
The serial number on this one is similar, but not identical to, the serial number of the other bar in the article. Why is the font style on the serial numbers different ? Note that the unwrapped bar appears to have the correct serial number font, while the other one shown in the article does not have the correct font.
As previously mentioned, it would be impossible to fill a hollowed-out gold bar with molten tungsten, due to the melting points. A cavity could be filled with tungsten carbide powder (cemented or not). But it would still be impossible to hollow-out a genuine bar and have the shell be as thin as it is in that picture. Solid tungsten is extremely hard. It would be difficult to drill into it, even a little bit.
A solid piece of cold tungsten could be wrapped with gold foil. There are two ways to stamp a shell: like a normal (thin) coin using a flat back die; or embossed like a chocolate coin foil case.
The first type would leave "ghosting" in the luster on the back, caused by metal flow on the front. The second type would, of course, have reverse incuse details on the back. I don't see either in the article's pictures.
My conclusion is that there are at least two different styles of fakes shown here. The fake bars could be produced in this manner:
1) Fabricate a tungsten core. Pure solid tungsten is very hard to machine. So the core could be made of cemented tungsten carbide powder, which is about 95% tungsten, 4% nickel, and less than 1% carbon, for example.
2) Coat the core with a thick layer of molten gold. The melting point of the core is much higher than the melting point of pure gold.
3) Stamp the coated bar with fake dies. Since the core is extremely hard, and the gold coating relatively thin, the relief height of the engraving would have to be very shallow (thus the flat 2-D engraving on the back).
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How is this even attempted. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F, and Tungsten at 6192 degrees F.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
I'd guess that is probably not the way it was done. Makes no sense to do it on something that small.
i am about to go coin hunting but i very much look forward to reading more about these.
there are a large amount of these being sold via ebay by sellers of counterfeit coins and i've been wondering how to authenticate these little bars
thanks for the info
.
<< <i>I looked at the pictures and the video.
Something is going on here, and I don't think the article is telling the accurate story.
From the article, fake front:
Compare to a genuine front:
Note the position of the right end of the "E" in SUISSE, compared the the position of the left side of the "E" in OUNCES. Also note the thickness of the letters on the fake, and the font style on the serial number.
Now the fake back:
Compare to a genuine back:
Note the 2-D flat countours of the fake back.
This is NOT a hollowed-out genuine bar. It was stamped or embossed by fake dies.
Unwrapped image from article:
The serial number on this one is similar, but not identical to, the serial number of the other bar in the article. Why is the font style on the serial numbers different ? Note that the unwrapped bar appears to have the correct serial number font, while the other one shown in the article does not have the correct font.
As previously mentioned, it would be impossible to fill a hollowed-out gold bar with molten tungsten, due to the melting points. A cavity could be filled with tungsten carbide powder (cemented or not). But it would still be impossible to hollow-out a genuine bar and have the shell be as thin as it is in that picture. Solid tungsten is extremely hard. It would be difficult to drill into it, even a little bit.
A solid piece of cold tungsten could be wrapped with gold foil. There are two ways to stamp a shell: like a normal (thin) coin using a flat back die; or embossed like a chocolate coin foil case.
The first type would leave "ghosting" in the luster on the back, caused by metal flow on the front. The second type would, of course, have reverse incuse details on the back. I don't see either in the article's pictures.
My conclusion is that there are at least two different styles of fakes shown here. The fake bars could be produced in this manner:
1) Fabricate a tungsten core. Pure solid tungsten is very hard to machine. So the core could be made of cemented tungsten carbide powder, which is about 95% tungsten, 4% nickel, and less than 1% carbon, for example.
2) Coat the core with a thick layer of molten gold. The melting point of the core is much higher than the melting point of pure gold.
3) Stamp the coated bar with fake dies. Since the core is extremely hard, and the gold coating relatively thin, the relief height of the engraving would have to be very shallow (thus the flat 2-D engraving on the back). >>
That theory was my thought. Look at the last picture, where the gold shell is peeled back. Note how the inside of the gold has the same grainy texture as the surface of the tungsten core. To me that proves that the gold was stamped after being applied to the core.
One small possible disagreement: tungsten is indeed very difficult to machine, but this is obviously the work of a professional ring, that may have had the wherewithal to buy solid tungsten cores pre-cut or pre-cast to the size it needed for the fake bars.
Add a fake COA, and hope that the buyer does not have another bar and certificate on hand to compare your bar and COA to.
TD
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>
<< <i>How is this even attempted. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F, and Tungsten at 6192 degrees F.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
I'd guess that is probably not the way it was done. Makes no sense to do it on something that small. >>
That small?
Let's see ... $1,700 per ounce X 10 ounces = $17,000
That is not exactly pocket change.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How is this even attempted. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F, and Tungsten at 6192 degrees F.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
I'd guess that is probably not the way it was done. Makes no sense to do it on something that small. >>
That small?
Let's $1,700 per ounce X 10 ounces = $17,000
That is not exactly pocket change.
I was talking small in terms of size not value. I think it would be difficult to pour such a hot liquid to the exact weight needed.
<< <i>How is this even attempted. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F, and Tungsten at 6192 degrees F.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
I read an article, can't remember details, but it concerned a guy writing a novel. Funny part was he described a bank job where they did this exact thing. I believe they made a mold of the real bar, then made a slightly smaller tungsten bar, then coated a 1/16th layer to make exact weight and the amount of coating would fool X-ray. Wonder if the book is now coming out or being made into a movie and this is an attempt for a viral marketing campaign. Not unheard of. Think Blair Witch and Paranormal activity.
Seems like karma to me.
More likely, somebody in the shop realized they had a turd on their hands...too late...and was unable to pawn it off on the next sucker...who started asking questions! Not that any "reputable" major bullion dealer would ever attempt to do something as underhanded as attempting to pass along a hot potato.
<< <i>Something is going on here, and I don't think the article is telling the accurate story. >>
Well feed me cheesecake and call me paranoid
think this is more than just a littletwo bit group of counterfieters, I mean like one reputable
guy buys from another reputable guy with papers and SN's, how far back does the secret
service have to go, I don't see how that trail can go cold, Or is it something more sinister
like a Guvment/banker/wallstreet plot/conspiracy to discourage private ownership of PM's
by casting doubt on the validity of there metals. Its not like it never happened before.
Steve
I sincerely appreciate everyone who shared their knowledge to this post.Special thanks to Mr. Carr who I believe may have a better idea than most of how this was done.
Now for the most part I buy 1 oz or smaller gold from the various mints,mostly the us mint so I dont think that I have something to worry about.However this story shows all of us that we need to examine purchases from second parties in hand.So if the guy standing on the corner wants to sell some gold at $1300 an ounce,the first thing you should ask yourself is are the coins real?and maybe a close second would be where ndid he get them?In either case I will pass.
<< <i>To bad PCGS doesn't certify the 10 ounce gold bars. They already have slabs large enough that they use for the hockey pucks. >>
Great idea. It's a good thing that no one counterfeits PCGS slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But either way, the best way to identify a fake stamped gold bar is to use the same techniques used in identifying a fake stamped coin -
know what a genuine piece looks like, and study the quality of the engraving very carefully. These faked 10-oz gold bars easily fail that test.
So beware of gold items that have two-dimensional appearing low-relief stampings.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Seems to me that it would be easy enough to counterfeit K-Rands and most other modern bullion coins in a similar fashion. It might be smart to favor Austrian 1 and 4 ducat pieces, because they are so thin. >>
If you are going to go with bullion coins, why not just favor PCGS slabbed coins?
<< <i>There's something mighty fishy about it , the fake bar was pretty obvious to a few members who kindly point out why and yet we are expected to believe experts who deal with them daily didn't notice and it was down to " i heard there were fake bars going around" so i whipped out a drill. >>
I agree, it's a fishy story!
I think an expert buyer would see the bar looked fake or the minute they set it on a counter they can tell by the feel and sound being off.
They show a fake bar with the different font and a different number and the uncovered bar with the SN they're talking about.
The title of the article on zerohedge says "fake bar" not fake bars.
The Fox article says "fake bars".
In the article it's worded in an unclear way. It says the guy bought "a bar" (singular) worth 18K then it says he drilled his bars (plural) worth 100K then it says he saw tungsten (ambiguous if in one or more).
Typical for news stories to have some agenda. They use ambiguity to make the story sound bigger or because they're clueless about what they're talking about.
just connecting these threads for my convenience.
i've just stocked my image file with 100+ bullion related products including these little bars, and man there are a lot of types and sizes out there
is anything easy these days, sheesh
.
Counterfeit plastic. That, plus the expense.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>If you are going to go with bullion coins, why not just favor PCGS slabbed coins?
Counterfeit plastic. That, plus the expense. >>
That's why it's also good to work with a dealer that won't leave you holding the bag. A while ago there was a thread on how long dealers should make good on selling counterfeits. There was varying opinions on this but longer guarantees are better for collectors.
As for expense, those do add to the expenses, but then so does getting a bar of tungsten.
The extra expense with unpopular bullion coins may be less liquidity and lower prices.
It's important to factor in the risk and reward into one's choices.
Wouldn't you think somebody early on would have noticed the density was way off?
<< <i>How is this even attempted. Gold melts at 1947 degrees F, and Tungsten at 6192 degrees F.
How do you pour a liquid three times hotter than the shell the of gold without melting it?
In fact, this has got to be done in labs as who has the ability to melt Tungsten in their garage?
Think about it's melting point at almost 6200 degrees. Oh my.
bob
Tungsten is produced with powder being pressed into shapes near to the finish parts size and after presintered and sintered will become as dense as gold. Having seen tungsten made for the last 24 years, I have my doubts they are producing the tungsten. The electricity alone to produce tungsten would stop you. It takes a power station large enough to run a small town just to run the equipment to turn metal powder into solid tungsten. They are cutting or breaking it to size and then plating over it to reach the weight. I would agree with Dcarr the bars are being produced similar to his description.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Gold has a world price entirely unaffected by accounting games between the Treasury and the Fed. - Jim Rickards
<< <i>maybe the gold was poured around the tungsten and then hit with a counterfeit stamp. >>
That's what Mr. Carr said and I concurred with.
Looks like they have found 10 bars.
Who knows if the articles are correct but it says they think the bars were made from real bars cut then sandwiched over the tungsten then the edges fixed and polished.
PM forum thread with new article
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>There's a new article linked in the thread on the PM forum.
Looks like they have found 10 bars.
Who knows if the articles are correct but it says they think the bars were made from real bars cut then sandwiched over the tungsten then the edges fixed and polished.
PM forum thread with new article >>
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