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How to combat sellers of counterfeits
EagleEye
Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
I think a good way to combat the rash of sellers of counterfeits in all venues - coin shops, antique shops, eBay and other internet sales sites, would be to compile a list of sellers who have been caught selling counterfeits. Post it on a "Counterfeit Coin Sellers Identification" web site. The site would be anonymous to the public (no one could tell who operates it). It would list sellers who have been identified as being sellers of counterfeits, either by their eBay name, or as known, their real name and business name.
Think of it this way - At a coin show, someone catches a thief and the police are called. The victim doesn't press charges and the thief is released. Will he do it again. Yes. But if you make an announcement at the show that a thief will be "perp-walked" though the isles for all to see, then the thief will be widely known and will likely be shamed to move on to other venues where he is not known so well.
With sellers of counterfeits, if you identify one fake, the sale might be taken down, but the fake will be sold elsewhere or at a later time. The seller must be compelled to never again sell the fake coin, or any fake coin in the future.
The CCSI web site would deter sellers from trying to sell coins that had been identified earlier. It would make others think twice before attempting it.
I came up with this idea at lunch during the ANA Summer Seminar. We had a good discussion about it and came to the conclusion that it might be a workable idea, but not as an ANA-sponsored site. It would have to be anonymous, so that it could not be influenced or threatened.
Your thoughts?
Think of it this way - At a coin show, someone catches a thief and the police are called. The victim doesn't press charges and the thief is released. Will he do it again. Yes. But if you make an announcement at the show that a thief will be "perp-walked" though the isles for all to see, then the thief will be widely known and will likely be shamed to move on to other venues where he is not known so well.
With sellers of counterfeits, if you identify one fake, the sale might be taken down, but the fake will be sold elsewhere or at a later time. The seller must be compelled to never again sell the fake coin, or any fake coin in the future.
The CCSI web site would deter sellers from trying to sell coins that had been identified earlier. It would make others think twice before attempting it.
I came up with this idea at lunch during the ANA Summer Seminar. We had a good discussion about it and came to the conclusion that it might be a workable idea, but not as an ANA-sponsored site. It would have to be anonymous, so that it could not be influenced or threatened.
Your thoughts?
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Comments
<< <i>I think a good way to combat the rash of sellers of counterfeits in all venues - coin shops, antique shops, eBay and other internet sales sites, would be to compile a list of sellers who have been caught selling counterfeits. Post it on a "Counterfeit Coin Sellers Identification" web site. The site would be anonymous to the public (no one could tell who operates it). It would list sellers who have been identified as being sellers of counterfeits, either by their eBay name, or as known, their real name and business name.
Think of it this way - At a coin show, someone catches a thief and the police are called. The victim doesn't press charges and the thief is released. Will he do it again. Yes. But if you make an announcement at the show that a thief will be "perp-walked" though the isles for all to see, then the thief will be widely known and will likely be shamed to move on to other venues where he is not known so well.
With sellers of counterfeits, if you identify one fake, the sale might be taken down, but the fake will be sold elsewhere or at a later time. The seller must be compelled to never again sell the fake coin, or any fake coin in the future.
The CCSI web site would deter sellers from trying to sell coins that had been identified earlier. It would make others think twice before attempting it.
I came up with this idea at lunch during the ANA Summer Seminar. We had a good discussion about it and came to the conclusion that it might be a workable idea, but not as an ANA-sponsored site. It would have to be anonymous, so that it could not be influenced or threatened.
Your thoughts? >>
Though I can see where you're coming from on this, it has one, major flaw:
Wrongfully labeling someone a counterfeiter, whether by mistake or not.
It would open the site up to litigation for slander.
There would have to be the strongest safeguards put in place to prevent that.
be checked, but as far as the internet, Alt ID's are and would continue
to be the work around
I think it would soon be as effective as putting wanted posters on the back of the barns around the country.
<< <i>Though I can see where you're coming from on this, it has one, major flaw:
Wrongfully labeling someone a counterfeiter, whether by mistake or not.
It would open the site up to litigation for slander.
There would have to be the strongest safeguards put in place to prevent that. >>
When I first read the OP this is the thought I had but didn't know how to explain it.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>It would have to be anonymous, so that it could not be influenced or threatened.
Your thoughts? >>
Shouldn't such a group be at least as accountable as the people they are supposedly monitoring? How does that happen if they're anonymous?
How would you feel if your name appeared on it?
It would be too easily abused, IMO. I don't think it will fly.
Lance.
I am suprised this isn't happening with counterfeit coin sellers.
you can spend your time as you may
if a witch police you desire to be...do it...be a witch police
lord knows there was one who was after the evil do-ers
spent his time searching for evil do-ers...doing evil in the name of searching for evil do-ers
he could do as he pleased too
sad was those...who bore the evil of his evil do-ers searching ways
girls coins and motorcycles
good enough choices for me in life
i'll leave the crusades,witch hunting and evil do-er searching to those who make it "their life"
I would say half of your net worth, maybe more.
How is a counterfeit determination made? (PCGS errs on determining if coins are genuine, so do other people)
What is the penalty for adding someone to the list, only to find out years later that the coin was genuine?
What should you pay if you put someone else out of their business?
All of these things need to be established.
What about altered dates on a genuine coin? What about coins that are professionally plugged but still genuine?
As you can see, it will necessitate rigorous thinking.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>One point that I am trying to make is that you can't rely on the police and justice system to stop the selling of counterfeits, or in the example provided, stop a thief from stealing at a show. A "shame" system would prevent many from relisting coins they have already been made aware of as being fake. Just the threat of getting listed would be a deterrent. >>
There will always be the " I didn't know " factor and that's a back door whether they knew or not.Proving they knew is another kettle of fish.
Then the site will list the name of the seller, date of sale, and a description of the coin that was ACCIDENTALLY SOLD as genuine?
Might alleviate some of the liability angle. And no one would want their name to show up on the list too many times...
Sort of like the shame resulting from immoral behavior described in "The Scarlet Letter". Having a large Scarlet "A" emblazoned upon your clothing announces to the public that you are a bad girl.
Same thing with the shame that results from having to register as a sex offender.
In the case of counterfeit coins, perhaps coin shows or other sponsored events can deny admission to those who selling counterfeits unless they agree to have a big Scarlet "C" emblazoned across their shirt or forehead.
<< <i>A "shame" system would prevent many from relisting coins they have already been made aware of as being fake. Just the threat of getting listed would be a deterrent. >>
Simple fact is rather being shamed they will counterattack with a PR Firm and Lawyers.
<< <i>How about if the buyer must have a major TPG's opinion that it is, indeed, a counterfeit. And the buyer must verify who it came from and when they bought it, via their receipt.
Then the site will list the name of the seller, date of sale, and a description of the coin that was ACCIDENTALLY SOLD as genuine? >>
This assumes that the TPGs don't make mistakes. Is that true?
With all respect, I must say that I am with those who find a rather stunning absence of due process in the OP’s vision.
If anything remotely similar to this vision is going to take off, it might best be modeled on the laws and procedures that govern the formation and dissemination of the sex offender list. I am prepared to be corrected, but I expect that the placement of a name on that list must be preceded by a conviction rendered under an umbrella of rights and protections which every one of us would demand if we were so accused.
Whit
we already have a consensus-based identification method.
All that is needed to create a more accessible lasting record is to compile/archive these reported instances.
Simplest would be a database sortable by ebay seller id, denomination and date.
Save photos and include a link to the identifying thread on this forum.
I think this is more workable. Allow people to list public transactions of counterfeit coins. Include any info that identifies the seller. This is a list of probable counterfeits. If people are suspicious of a coin they can peruse the list to see if they can find the coin or seller and then draw their own conclusion. Someone falsely accused could contest the posting and if corroborated the listing removed and the person listing would lose credibility.
Say an eBay auction for a counterfeit coin is discovered. Somebody could copy the eBay listing. That would capture the coin, w/ photo, and seller's ID. If posted anonymously it would have less weight than if posted by a coin expert willing to post his name. Post all this info as a possible counterfeit coin sighting. Experts could pipe in by commenting.
I would offer the following as a better way to proceed:
Build a small volunteer team of 5-6 "authenticators" only known to the public by pseudonyms. This team will search for counterfeits and review reported counterfeits. Each "report" will be assigned a ticket and have its details publicly posted once approved. In order to generate or approve a ticket for a reported counterfeit one of the authenticators must render and attach a positive "counterfeit" opinion regarding the coin in question. From there the ticket is public and other authenticators may now render their opinions.
As counterfeits are reported, verified and posted you can begin to build statistics.
Top 10 Most Common Counterfeits Seen on eBay
Top 10 Most Seen Seller Regions for Counterfeits on eBay
Top 10 Most Often Reported Counterfeit Sellers
Careful wording and execution significantly reduce any potential liability as the site is simply offering opinions on data that is already public. Your opinion's value and the sites success depends on you and your volunteer authenticators accurately reporting data with no emotional attachment or hyperbole.
I want to speak about whit's post:
With all respect, I must say that I am with those who find a rather stunning absence of due process in the OP’s vision.
The OP is made using the assumption that criminal prosecution doesn't work so well. Right now if you list a counterfeit on eBay many here, myself included, wouldn't hesitate to posting the link here. Is there any difference from posting here to posting the info to another web site?
Also UNCOnly said this:
Wrongfully labeling someone a counterfeiter, whether by mistake or not.
It would open the site up to litigation for slander.
This would not be labeling anyone a counterfeiter, but a seller of counterfeits. Big difference. Also, I doubt that a truthful post of someone selling counterfeits would get a retaliatory legal assault. But if it did, that is why it would be an anonymous site. Maybe we can get Julian Assange to put it on wiki-leaks.
One) if the 100 greatest MPL website got shutdown, what do you think will happen with this one?
Two) prepare for a court case if you list names. Yes seriously, expect to lose and pay out big. Expect pay out to be so big your bankrupt, and anyone else involved in the prohect.
Three) youll need to have counsel (lawyer) on hand at all times. That means lots of upfront fees. And with all the scruge mcducks in this hobby, I wonder where those funds will come from.
<< <i>This would not be labeling anyone a counterfeiter, but a seller of counterfeits. Big difference. >>
Some counterfeits are easy to identify. Others, not so much. And some would need to be seen in person for proper confirmation. Where do you draw the line as to who/what gets publicly listed?
What if *you* get listed?
<< <i>More I think on this another question come to mind. How would this site differentiate between a collector who bought a counterfeit and does not know it is and is selling, and a person that buys wholesale lots knowing they are counterfeit and is just flat out trying to make a fast buck?
+1 There you go!
Edit: What about a site that tracks and identifies the counterfeit coins?
Slabbed Gold For Sale
Point well taken. I agree that there is no significant difference between posting an auction link on Site A and posting the same link on Site B. But when a link is posted and a thread is started, the message should be about the item, not about the seller. (Certainly, we have encountered many posters who in fact do take it upon themselves to convict. And although a legally empowered judge or a jury in a court of law might ultimately agree, those posters are empowered only with a keyboard and an opinion. In another day, we might have said a fast horse and a loaded pistol.) But back to the original post ...... it was the placing of names on a list and the forcing of perp-walks that inspired my earlier comments about due process. And those actions, I think, are very widely separated from posting a link about an item that is suspect or clearly not as described.
Whit
edited twice because I can't type ...
Since the site would be anonymous. there would be no "accountability" toward wrong or perhaps vengeful reports.
As such, given the anononymity (sp?), how would one go about "proving" that the report was false?
Better yet, what "proof" would be provided to get a name on the site?
IMO, there are just way too many holes in the idea as we all know that not every counterfeit report is a valid report.
As for clearing the hobby of counterfeits? Counterfeits have always been around, there just happens to be a lot of them at this point in time AND there appears to be a good scapegoat to take all the heat. (Blame the Chinese)
Folks have been buying counterfeit coins for as long as they have been manufactured. It's just one of the hazards of not paying attention and a good education base is the only deterrent for the collector.
Know what you buy BEFORE you buy it.
The name is LEE!
Reports should simply be listed in date order of receipt most recent first.
In my experience volunteer organizations that present themselves to the public via pseudonyms work quite well and can still be held accountable by their peers. I've attended and spoken at large conferences as part of an anonymous volunteer organization all via a pseudonym. In reality you don't run much of a risk until you want to turn corporate or become a true non-profit. Then, I agree, its time to call in the lawyers.
the best way would be to buy from someone who can detect a counterfeit and who stands behind their coins
<< <i>The "shame" aspect of this proposal is intriguing. >>
Thieves have no "shame" and since some of these folks are intentionally deceiving their buyers, they are theives and nothing more. Integrity is, after all, a prereq for being ashamed. No integrity, no shame.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>let me see the hands of anyone that truly believes a site can maintain anonymity when being sued in say... federal court. good luck with that, >>
I'll raise my hand as it is indeed quite possible, though in my opinion completely unnecessary. (More than a few hosting providers will host your content and accept truly anonymous payments.)
Regardless, that really shouldn't be the point as, in the end, you want an organization that can defend itself should it ever find the need (highly unlikely).
As for "federal court"... there is no federal defamation law. As such, the damages requested would need to be in excess of $75,000.
I'd never say never, but I'd argue it is HIGHLY unlikely anyone would get sued over these types of reports. If the organization screwed up and listed a legitimate coin as counterfeit without resolving the report expediently and publicly - then I suppose the aggrieved party could at least attempt a lawsuit.
tackle any one of those, I don't hold out much hope for fixing counterfeiting.
There are two ways I can think of to possibly make this work:
1) Have the website hosted in a country not bound by US law and not inclined to cooperate with US subpoenas. Make sure the domain registration is overseas as well.
2) Instead of having a site where counterfeits are definitively reported, create a site where people can post links to auctions and ask other people to vote on whether they think the coin is genuine or not. (Of course, this only addresses one auction at a time, not sellers.) One of our lawyers can chime in, but it's hard for me to see how someone can get sued for posting a link to an auction and asking a question about it or for participating in a web poll. This variant also is self-policing if enough people participate.
http://www.shieldnickels.net
Yes, exactly like posting a counterfeit in an auction here on this forum. We as a group have stopped many auctions from completing. I doubt we have stopped any serial sellers of fakes, though. They just wait awhile and relist the fake.
I think there is little difference between posting a link to an auction here and identifying it as a counterfeit (with the seller's store name obviously known as well) and having a list of auctions and their sellers that have been found to be auctions of counterfeits.
Some of the argument against the idea is that the sellers should not be identified, either for fear of legal backlash or because they may have listed a counterfeit unknowingly. Are there valid reasons? The intent is to deter people from selling counterfeits. I they know people are watching, they are less inclined to try.
Roadrunner said:
But our hobby still can't get past the much bigger problems of overgrading, doctoring, and bogus holders. Until we successfully
tackle any one of those, I don't hold out much hope for fixing counterfeiting.
The comparison is false, we are talking about sellers of counterfeits, not the counterfeiters themselves. To make a valid comparison you would have to compare the sellers of overgraded coins and the sellers of doctored coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It's the career fake sellers who would and should be listed and outed.
For sellers of fake ancient coins forumancientcoins.com has for quite a few years maintained this up to date list of eBay ancient coin fake sellers, FORVM's NOTORIOUS FAKE SELLERS LIST. Apparently they have never been legally forced to take it down. Or to my knowledge been legally forced or even challenged to unlist a single seller. But Joe, the owner of the site, does make sure that the only sellers listed are those who continually and constantly sell fakes. He makes sure that honest dealers with an occasional misjudgment are not listed. If the evidence for a seller selling fakes is obvious, constant and overwhelming the fake sellers don't appear to challenge it.
So it can be done.
I believe one poster mentioned that it's the fake coins themselves that should be outed instead of the sellers. forumancientcoins.com has done that also with their Fake Ancient Coin Reports. They show the most common fakes and the recently found new fake coins.
I believe it would be best to do both. Make known the fake coins and the career fake sellers. This would have a greater benefit to new collectors. They are the most at risk. And if new collectors are discouraged by bad experiences it hurts the future of this hobby.
All it would take is for someone or some group with the time and motivation to do it.
<< <i>
Yes, exactly like posting a counterfeit in an auction here on this forum. We as a group have stopped many auctions from completing. I doubt we have stopped any serial sellers of fakes, though. They just wait awhile and relist the fake. >>
A website which allowed people to vote on counterfeits could also track which sellers received the dubious honor of most votes.
But I'm not sure it matters much. If an eBay seller of fakes is outed and stopped, he will just set up business under a different userid.
http://www.shieldnickels.net
<< <i>But I'm not sure it matters much. If an eBay seller of fakes is outed and stopped, he will just set up business under a different userid. >>
Then you out him again.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>ripoffreport.com might give you some ideas. >>
I typed in coin and found some interesting reading.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Thanks for those links. that is exactly what I was taking about. The fact that the moderator of the list is public shows that there is likely little to fear in legal threats if the list is prepared in a way that is fair an honest.