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News: "PNG Adopts Coin Doctoring Definition"
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PNG Adopts Coin Doctoring Definition
By Professional Numismatists Guild on April 18, 2012 6:59 AM
(Schaumburg, Illinois) — Members of the Professional Numismatists Guild (www.PNGdealers.com) attending the organization’s general membership meeting on April 17, 2012 overwhelmingly approved a three-point definition of so-called “coin doctoring.”
“This is a complex issue, but we needed to have a concise definition to help combat the deliberative and unacceptable alteration of coins in an effort to deceive.
More than 50 PNG member-dealers attended the meeting, and only one voted against the definition,” said PNG President Jeffrey Bernberg.
We’ve been working on this for over two years with Numismatic Guaranty Corporation and Professional Coin Grading Service as well as a committee of dealers and collectors to formulate an industry-acceptable definition,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman.
“I told our members at the meeting that the numismatic world is watching us. We need to take a vote. We need to make a decision now on adopting a definition.”
Here is the wording of the definition as approved by the PNG Board of Directors and PNG member-dealers attending the meeting in the Chicago suburb of Schaumburg, Illinois on the eve of the Central States Numismatic Society convention.
Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following:
1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, “lasering” and adding or removing mint marks.
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occurring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
In July 2010, the PNG Board of Directors in partnership with NGC and PCGS adopted a definition of coin doctoring. However, it subsequently was rejected by PNG members in January 2011.
“The PNG By-Laws provide the general membership with the opportunity to override decisions made by the Board. In this particular case, the membership voted overwhelmingly in early 2011 to keep the previous PNG Code of Ethics definition in place and not adopt a more-substantive new wording specifically about coin doctoring until the issue could be more clearly defined,” said Brueggeman.
“We then formed a committee headed by John Albanese and composed of PNG members and non-members, dealers and collectors, to research and draft an industry-acceptable definition of coin doctoring.”
“It frankly took longer than some of us expected or wanted to get something substantive finally approved, but the overwhelmingly vote now by PNG members to support a specific coin doctoring definition is an important, major step for the hobby and the profession. It needed to be done,” said Brueggeman.
The Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) is the oldest and largest organization of coin dealers in the US. Founded in 1955, the PNG is a nonprofit organization composed of the country’s top rare coin and paper money dealers who must adhere to a strict Code of Ethics in the buying and selling of numismatic merchandise. The organization adopted new by-laws regarding this practice as a way to better protect consumers. Hear what was involved to get these new guidelines in place.
PNG President: Jeffrey Bernberg, PNG Members: Julian Leidman, John Feigenbaum, and David Greenstein
Interviewer: David Lisot.
Video Link
CoinWeek Link
PNG Adopts Coin Doctoring Definition
By Professional Numismatists Guild on April 18, 2012 6:59 AM
(Schaumburg, Illinois) — Members of the Professional Numismatists Guild (www.PNGdealers.com) attending the organization’s general membership meeting on April 17, 2012 overwhelmingly approved a three-point definition of so-called “coin doctoring.”
“This is a complex issue, but we needed to have a concise definition to help combat the deliberative and unacceptable alteration of coins in an effort to deceive.
More than 50 PNG member-dealers attended the meeting, and only one voted against the definition,” said PNG President Jeffrey Bernberg.
We’ve been working on this for over two years with Numismatic Guaranty Corporation and Professional Coin Grading Service as well as a committee of dealers and collectors to formulate an industry-acceptable definition,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman.
“I told our members at the meeting that the numismatic world is watching us. We need to take a vote. We need to make a decision now on adopting a definition.”
Here is the wording of the definition as approved by the PNG Board of Directors and PNG member-dealers attending the meeting in the Chicago suburb of Schaumburg, Illinois on the eve of the Central States Numismatic Society convention.
Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following:
1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, “lasering” and adding or removing mint marks.
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occurring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
In July 2010, the PNG Board of Directors in partnership with NGC and PCGS adopted a definition of coin doctoring. However, it subsequently was rejected by PNG members in January 2011.
“The PNG By-Laws provide the general membership with the opportunity to override decisions made by the Board. In this particular case, the membership voted overwhelmingly in early 2011 to keep the previous PNG Code of Ethics definition in place and not adopt a more-substantive new wording specifically about coin doctoring until the issue could be more clearly defined,” said Brueggeman.
“We then formed a committee headed by John Albanese and composed of PNG members and non-members, dealers and collectors, to research and draft an industry-acceptable definition of coin doctoring.”
“It frankly took longer than some of us expected or wanted to get something substantive finally approved, but the overwhelmingly vote now by PNG members to support a specific coin doctoring definition is an important, major step for the hobby and the profession. It needed to be done,” said Brueggeman.
The Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) is the oldest and largest organization of coin dealers in the US. Founded in 1955, the PNG is a nonprofit organization composed of the country’s top rare coin and paper money dealers who must adhere to a strict Code of Ethics in the buying and selling of numismatic merchandise. The organization adopted new by-laws regarding this practice as a way to better protect consumers. Hear what was involved to get these new guidelines in place.
PNG President: Jeffrey Bernberg, PNG Members: Julian Leidman, John Feigenbaum, and David Greenstein
Interviewer: David Lisot.
Video Link
CoinWeek Link
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Tom
<< <i>People who consider dipping to be doctoring won't be happy. >>
Now all white coins need to come with documentation that they had been professionally dipped
Let's wait and see how it is actually handled if and when complaints from buyers arise.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
now what?
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
I can see the ads in the back of coin world now: "Find a career in dipology! Be a qualified professional! Earn your certificate in dipologistics! Easy payment plans for our correspondence course.... "
TWO YEARS to come up with this is pathetic. You would have thought they were writing a 1,000 Page Novel at that rate.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. >>
I think they could have done better here. Define "qualified professionals".
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. >>
I think they could have done better here. Define "qualified professionals". >>
Ditto. Without a clear definition of what a qualified professional in this case is, this is just a way of saying anyone can dip.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>#2 is a bit weak and open to interpretation which is not good IMO.
TWO YEARS to come up with this is pathetic. You would have thought they were writing a 1,000 Page Novel at that rate.
i know to come up with a definition right...now it's time to light the torches for the hunt or something here...lol...
As an aside, I find it amusing that the PNG used "Jeweluster" as an example of a dilute acid cleaner. Jeweluster hasn't been on the market in many years. The product was rebranded as "e-Z-est."
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
dots are good
They left some wiggle room, of course, but they at least established a good starting point.
I applaud this.
Don't let all the cynics and doubters ruin a good first step in the right direction.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
One logical flaw in the wording: If someone applies substances to a coin, but it ends up not being
"in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be", then according to
this definition the coin wasn't "doctored".
So, do crummy doctors get a free pass?
<< <i>We’ve been working on this for over two years... >>
Wow, what a waste of time.
<< <i>The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. >>
The inclusion of this statement renders the whole thing moot, in my opinion. It's the loophole you can drive a truck through.
<< <i>Whether the definition, together with the existing code of ethics, is followed up by real enforcement remains to be seen. >>
I don't think there's any chance it will be enforced. And how would they? Expel dealers from the guild, I suppose. But in the long run, would expulsion really matter to anyone? Unless you happen to follow the news of the hobby closely, you would probably never know that a dealer has been expelled or otherwise punished by the PNG for doctoring. It's not like they can keep a guilty dealer from continuing to doctor coins and sell them.
<< <i>Don't let all the cynics and doubters ruin a good first step in the right direction. >>
This is a half-step taken for publicity, in my opinion. I hope I'm wrong and the PNG follows up with more significant action. Maybe they can get the other hobby organizations, show organizers, and grading companies to join together against coin doctors. Ban them from major shows; revoke their memberships in organizations; no longer accept grading submissions from them, things that would actually affect their ability to sell coins...yeah, right.
(I'm from Detroit so I'm allowed to say that. Where the strong survive and the weak are eaten)
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This will begin to restore some lost trust in the organization and the hobby as a whole.
A lot of people won't agree with their definition 100% but they have to make a stand
somewhere. I disagree with the definition of AT or that they even try to define it at all
but this is minor compared to establishing a line in the sand.
Eric
Whats the difference? Is any of this done is daylight? If it sniffs its real? We already know you can tone a bright silver round in a paper envelope in "the other room" for 2 years and it is NOT AT so...all those MS 10C and WAIT Redmond...all that "
Implicit in the definitions is that the coin must stand on it's own merits... there's an unwritten "looks like_______ to experienced eyes" within each of those sentences
in other words, "the story" doesn't convey with the ownership of the coin; presented with a novel toned coin the grader has never seen before, with no back story, the coin has to be judged as to whether it's "doctored".... So a coin can be as "accidentally" toned as can be, but if it looks Fake, it's doctored. And if it Looks natural, but it's not, it actually "is"
edit: we also need a definition of "long-term"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I am not a big fan of toning but don't like dipping either. Toning and crustiness do tell their own tales.
You know I don't think the 16th Century Ecumenical Council of Trent took this long to come to a conclusion.
Ron
<< <i>Notice, no mention of "intent".
Implicit in the definitions is that the coin must stand on it's own merits... there's an unwritten "looks like_______ to experienced eyes" within each of those sentences
in other words, "the story" doesn't convey with the ownership of the coin; presented with a novel toned coin the grader has never seen before, with no back story, the coin has to be judged as to whether it's "doctored".... So a coin can be as "accidentally" toned as can be, but if it looks Fake, it's doctored. And if it Looks natural, but it's not, it actually "is"
edit: we also need a definition of "long-term" >>
What he just said in very important I think.
I'd suggest an "originality" sticker for older coins, but then you'd give so few out...
Eric
I can dip a coin with the intent to increase its eye appeal and value, remove pvc spots, up the grade and NOT have doctored? Removal is OK, addition is not - intent remains - the same?
Eric
<< <i>"by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring"
are you a qualified professional eric?
lol...
Qualified professional = coin dealer
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
This statement probably refers to PCGS and NGC to help exempt them from their abetting in coin 'doctoring'.........you know, those sea-salvaged encrusted treasure coins that have been "professionally preserved" and certified as if nothing had been done to them........hypocracy
<< <i>
<< <i>"by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring"
are you a qualified professional eric?
lol...
Qualified professional = coin dealer
Good one Perry!
Certified maybe
Best,
Eric
<< <i><< "by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring" >>
This statement probably refers to PCGS and NGC to help exempt them from their abetting in coin 'doctoring'.........you know, those sea-salvaged encrusted treasure coins that have been "professionally preserved" and certified as if nothing had been done to them........hypocracy >>
That is the sort of thing I was talking about. Call it Conservation then, and limit it (OMG more definitions...). I don't like the places where spots and PVC come off and things look different and all but still get entombed...I don't know what to call it
Eric
If I have a problem coin and have it corrected it is "Doctored" or cleaned. A well heeled client has his coins conserved.
Bottom line comes down to whom you are as to what you get by with.
Ron
If there was no pressure from the public and some dealers to stop these practices would PNG be willing to support even this soft message?
I am disappointed but not surprised.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
It seems to me there are at least two hundred or more lowly collectors here on the forums who could have come up with that same or very similar definition in about 10 minutes. I suppose I now see why certain dealers feel the PNG is a completely worthless and useless organization.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
And yes, I'm guilty of having dipped many of my own coins back in the 1970s and 1980s...because that was the thing to do back then...sorry all you kids out there who never experienced the "toning is ugly/bad/evil/to be removed immediately" school of thought.
So now 30+ years on...many of my formerly dipped coins have been happily residing in their Dansco albums...and have now subtly retoned over the decades, with many now exhibiting quite attractive "ring toning" where they contact the cardboard album. And am I going to re-dip them? No...and why? Because attitudes change...and being older, I can accept a little more color in my life. And because Jeweluster stinks to high heaven! My wife knows the odor and always yells downstairs..."Are you dipping a coin, you freak?"
But ask me if I go out of my way to buy heavily toned coins? The answer is no. I still like to buy white, because there is less chance of significant surface issues "hiding" under all that pretty color.
<< <i>As an old timer who grew up in the "toning is bad" and "toning/oxidation is eating/etching into the surface of the coin"...I've always kept a container or two of Jeweluster on hand...(which is known in the state of California to be a carcinogen!)...but I digress.
And yes, I'm guilty of having dipped many of my own coins back in the 1970s and 1980s...because that was the thing to do back then...sorry all you kids out there who never experienced the "toning is ugly/bad/evil/to be removed immediately" school of thought.
So now 30+ years on...many of my formerly dipped coins have been happily residing in their Dansco albums...and have now subtly retoned over the decades, with many now exhibiting quite attractive "ring toning" where they contact the cardboard album. And am I going to re-dip them? No...and why? Because attitudes change...and being older, I can accept a little more color in my life. And because Jeweluster stinks to high heaven! My wife knows the odor and always yells downstairs..."Are you dipping a coin, you freak?"
But ask me if I go out of my way to buy heavily toned coins? The answer is no. I still like to buy white, because there is less chance of significant surface issues "hiding" under all that pretty color. >>
I remeber one B&M who had a back room like a lab! He did not believe in numerical grading and did not last long. Neither did his MS67 Mercs
Eric
<< <i>People who consider dipping to be doctoring won't be happy. >>
No, It's OK to dip if you're a 'professional'. Watch out you amatuer dippers!
And now that I think about it, didn't even bother to rinse off the residual dip!!!
Ahhh the good old days...so much simpler back then!
<< <i>
<< <i>The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. >>
I think they could have done better here. Define "qualified professionals". >>
Simple. Since this is adopted by PNG, one could only assume that a PNG member is considered a "qualified professional".
I'd like to have seen the word "putty" spelled out specifically somewhere within the definition like they did with "movement.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Basically, it is a good definition. Now we must go further and have ANA adopt it (or modify it and have PNG agree), so that the formal, established organizations present a united front. After that, enforcement can be discussed. Cheers, RickO >>
Sadly, enforcement by the ANA or PNG can lead to nothing more serious than membership removal. Not until legal authorities are involved where fines and/or incarceration can be effectively levied will the plague of coin doctoring be blunted. Coin doctoring is fraud and should be dealt with as such. As much as we do not need governmental interference, we have proven we cannot self-police. We'll probably spend a few more years wagging fingers and writing bitter editorials before we take the next meaningful step.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces