My foolish eBay $12 toilet-flush gamble of the day - RESULTS in post #30

seanq · January 10, 2012 3:54AM

What can I say, I had a little money in my PayPal account and took a few minutes at lunch to find a creative way to spend it. This is the auction, and the seller's picture is below:

I have a hunch that the coin highlighted below is the DDO, based on some subtle pick-up points I've learned over the years:

I'll update this thread with the results of what I find after the roll arrives, whether it turns out I'm a genius or a fool.

Sean Reynolds

EDITED TO ADD results in the 30th post

Tdec1000 · January 10, 2012 4:02AM

Hopefully they are the coins you get and that it isn't a stock photo.

Billet7 · January 10, 2012 4:03AM

Interesting. I love doing stuff like this! Hopefully it works out to be the DDO.

cmerlo1 · January 10, 2012 4:05AM

I'm seeing what you're seeing- good luck!

SanctionII · January 10, 2012 4:08AM

Good luck on your gamble.

If you do not find a 1917 DDO and you want one in your collection I know the owner of one of the two PCGS MS67 examples of the coin. If you have an interest in that coin let me know.

Res · January 10, 2012 4:16AM

It might have been less of a gamble if you had waited to receive the lot.

OriginalDan · January 10, 2012 5:42AM

Wow, if that is the DDO, nice job!

And if so, what are the odds of that coin being in a random lot of wheats, and then showing up, facing up in the picture!?

seanq · January 10, 2012 6:03AM

<< Wow, if that is the DDO, nice job!

And if so, what are the odds of that coin being in a random lot of wheats, and then showing up, facing up in the picture!? >>

The auction is for a circ roll of 1917 cents, which is what I decided to look for with my PayPal funds burning a hole in my pocket. I didn't expect to find a DDO in the auction photos, I just wanted a reasonably priced roll without any culls. This one in particular I was ready to pass by completely until I looked carefully at the photo.

I've cherrypicked several auctions where the coin on the end of an "unsearched" roll is an unattributed variety, so it's not unheard of. I've also seen a seller use a stock photo of an unattributed 1936 DDO on a listing for a circ roll; only when pressed did he admit the coin in the photo was not included. So I suppose it's possible the photo was seeded with that coin, but honestly if that was the intention the seller did a terrible job of it; the auction was almost a month old when I hit the BIN.

@cmerlo, thanks for chiming in, someday we should compare notes and see if we're really seeing the same things we think we're seeing

Sean Reynolds

guitarwes · January 10, 2012 6:07AM

I see something on that resembling some pickup points, good luck. Maybe one of the 50 will be.....or more!

UtahCoin · January 10, 2012 6:29AM

I think you may have hit the jackpot. You know, Like 777 on a slot machine.

SanctionII · January 10, 2012 6:40AM

To my untrained eye, I am drawn to the 7 in 1917 and to the TR in Trust. The appearance of that number and those two letters indicate to me that the coin may be a DDO. Perhaps it has to do with what appears to be thickening of that number and those two letters. Taking a second look at the photo also causes me to think that the look of the B in Liberty also indicates a DDO.

Am I on track or is my mind just playing tricks on me?

WaterSport · January 10, 2012 7:49AM

Worth the gamble!!, I do it all the time. looks like a good shot to me.

WS

goose3 · January 10, 2012 9:43AM

Looks like it to me too.

Good luck!

cheezhed · January 10, 2012 10:03AM

What are the subtle pick up points?

SanctionII · January 10, 2012 10:21AM

I just checked a photo of the MS67 RD coin and compared it to the Sean's pictured coin.

The 9 and the 7 in the date in Sean's coin look just like the 9 and the 7 in the MS67 RD coin. So also does the E in WE, the D in GOD and the TR in TRUST look the same in both pictures.

Comparing the two pictures give one a good sense of what PUP's to look for when you are searching 1917 cents.

coinkat · January 10, 2012 10:26AM

GOOD LUCK

mr1931S · January 10, 2012 12:02PM

I once bought a lot of IH pennies that were pictured like these 1917's. There was a 1909 there,a nice one,in the auction picture and I assumed that I would be receiving it with the others.

I was wrong.It was a stock photo.

seanq · January 10, 2012 12:05PM

<< What are the subtle pick up points? >>

Funny you should ask.... I just dug out some photos I took years ago of a damaged VG example, a corroded AG example, and a normal 1917 with strike doubling. I used these to sell the center coin (the corroded AG) on eBay, it was my way of convincing bidders the coin was properly attributed.

On the image above, look at the crossbar of the 7, which is twice as thick as the tail. Look also at the 9, because of the direction of the doubling, the 9 has a thicker "hump" and the end of the curl is thicker too, but the tail and the upper left part of the curve are thin. There is also faint notching at the bottom right corner of both 1s in the date, tough to see in very low grades.

This isn't the best photo to illustrate it, but the word TRUST is the easiest place for me to see this variety. The upper crossbar of the T will be normal thickness, but the lower vertical bar will be twice as thick and not centered under the crossbar. Even in a terrible photo, the left side of the crossbar looks twice as long as the right, again this is because of the direction and nature of the doubling (this is pivoted hub doubling, not rotated hub, they look quite different). It's hard to see because of the damage but the two curls of the S will be thicker than the center, top and bottom - almost as if it was written with a caligraphy pen.

In this picture you can better see what I'm talking about with the crossbar of the T. The R is also thicker on the right side only, while the U is thicker on the upright parts of the letter but not at the bottom. It is not pictured but WE has similar quirks, the horizontal lines of the E will look longer on the DDO and the W slightly thicker.

As I said, these are very subtle pick-up points, but with an example in hand as a reference (or good photos in the grade range you're searching) and a LOT of practice, they will jump right out at you. On the coin in the OP, I first noticed the thickness of the 9 and 7 in the date, and after squinting at my monitor for a while I could see some of the traits in TRUST as well (or at least, I convinced myself that I did).

I've been trying to cherrypick one of these off eBay for years, I've found them in rolls before but never sniffed one out from an auction photo. I want to be right not because of any financial windfall, but because I want to cross finding this variety off my bucket list.

Sean Reynolds

JRocco · January 10, 2012 12:09PM

I'll see if I can find any other pics of mine Sean

JRocco · January 10, 2012 12:18PM

Found one more Sean

seanq · January 17, 2012 3:48AM

Quick update - the roll arrived today, I went through it quickly and I believe I have identified the coin highlighted in the image in the first post. I will take better photos of it tonight and post them here.

I won't spoil the results except to say that I went through the other 49 coins in the roll and what a motley bunch, more than half of them culls and none grading better than VG.

Sean Reynolds

WinPitcher · January 17, 2012 3:55AM

Congrats!

ModCrewman · January 17, 2012 3:57AM

You tease.

CaptHenway · January 17, 2012 3:58AM

So, is it the famous "Kissing Lincolns" die or not???

ricko · January 17, 2012 4:04AM

That is quite a catch... spotting that in the photo was great work... congratulations. Cheers, RickO

seanq · January 17, 2012 4:46AM

<< That is quite a catch... spotting that in the photo was great work... congratulations. Cheers, RickO >>

Hold off on those accolades for now, I haven't said if the coin was actually the DDO or not.

Sean Reynolds

rhedden · January 17, 2012 4:52AM

If you didn't get the DDO, I'd like to see you re-list the roll on eBay with an Uber-honest description, like "Roll of pathetically worn 1917 cents. More than half ugly culls." Then send a link to the previous seller just for fun, and see how much it goes for. Might as well have some fun with it!

LeeBone · January 17, 2012 8:04AM

Hope you did get a DDO

crypto79 · January 17, 2012 8:17AM

Are the DDOs valuable in such low grade?

Lakesammman · January 17, 2012 11:06AM

Well.......

seanq · January 17, 2012 12:50PM

Sorry for the delay, it took longer to process the pictures on my old computer than I'd planned. So as a refresher, here's the picture from the auction with the coin I suspected was a DDO highlighted:

I'm fairly certain this coin is the one in the photo, based on the dark spot behind Lincoln's shoulder and the discoloration at the rim at K-3:

The attribution should be a bit easier with the large photo, but in case it is still not clear, here are some close-ups:

So yes it is the DDO, but unfortunately the coin has lots of recent deep scratches on both sides (the reverse is shown below). I'd say overall the coin has Good-6 details but I'd net-grade it down to AG. I'm at least happy the rims are full on both sides, unlike most of the other coins in the roll, and that the diagnostics for the variety are still intact and easily identifiable. (EDIT: Forgot the reverse pic )

Sean Reynolds

seanq · January 17, 2012 12:51PM

<< If you didn't get the DDO, I'd like to see you re-list the roll on eBay with an Uber-honest description, like "Roll of pathetically worn 1917 cents. More than half ugly culls." Then send a link to the previous seller just for fun, and see how much it goes for. Might as well have some fun with it! >>

This is exactly what I was thinking about doing, except I'd also mention that bidders shouldn't expect to find any doubled dies in there because I'd already pulled them all out.

Sean Reynolds

cmerlo1 · January 17, 2012 1:05PM

Way to go Sean!!!

crypto79 · January 17, 2012 1:09PM

Little back ground on the 1917 DDO, how rare? how valuable? Please

seanq · January 17, 2012 1:35PM

<< Little back ground on the 1917 DDO, how rare? how valuable? Please >>

This one is just scarce in low grades, it gets rare in grades about VF. A problem free Good example is probably worth $50 to $75, this coin maybe a bit less due to the damage. A couple of years ago I sold one in PCGS VG10 for about $175.

So it's not a grand financial score, rather I'm excited to share it because of the personal achievement. I've found a few examples searching rolls or bags, but despite years of looking, before this coin I've never cherrypicked one.

Sean Reynolds

coinbuf · January 17, 2012 1:36PM

Congrats on the find

bob48 · January 17, 2012 5:36PM

Sean
Very Interesting story and photos, My work is done today I have learned something about coins again today (1917 DDO Lincolns)
Thank You, Now I will have to check my stash of 1917 cents.
Bob

seanq · January 17, 2012 11:58PM

TTT for the day crowd.

Sean

zap1111 · January 18, 2012 12:03AM

A very interesting and informative read. Thanks. And great sleuthing!
zap

GoldClause · January 18, 2012 12:30AM

Good work, interesting thread!

RadioContestKing · January 18, 2012 1:20AM

Thanks, you got me looking at my old folders from mom and dad and I swear the 1917 is the same, The bottom of t is definitly not centered its off to the right and is thicker than the top of T . If I can get the scanner to work, My example is not in as good as shape as yours.......thanks for sharing...........Enjoy