Just got the coin today and already emailed pcgs... Probably just going to have to return it to get my refund and the seller will rip someother person off....
1. Education for spotting fake pcgs holders 2. Stay away from this seller 3. The fact that the only way for me to get a refund is to send back the coin/slab which will allow the seller to resell the coin and rip somebody else off. Im sure there are more...
If you lay out all the details in a manner that a layman can understand with proof (from PCGS) that the slab is fake and the pictures he used in the auction are real (proof of premeditated, calculated scamming), then eBay will kick this guy off.
If is important you get 3rd party proof that the slab is fake. A letter from an recognized expert would be good to. The drones at eBay know nothing about coins so from their viewpoint it is just your word against his.
1. Education for spotting fake pcgs holders 2. Stay away from this seller 3. The fact that the only way for me to get a refund is to send back the coin/slab which will allow the seller to resell the coin and rip somebody else off. Im sure there are more... >>
I'm sure even that bad of a fake would move real fast at a small show if offered at the right price. Put the slab in the back of a box full of legit slabs so no casual window shopper will scan it. Don't let known dealers or experts look at that special box. Crude fakes will pass to the greedy and to the uninformed crowd that hasn't even heard about fake slabs. Perhaps one of those uninformed folks will read this thread and be a bit more careful buying slabbed coins, and that would be a good thing.
Don't be fooled that most fakes are of low quality. There are many levels of fakes, and the best fakes take a top expert to spot. For better date MS65 coins, an extremely profitable game might be to buy real coin 63's and put them in fake 65 holders. Faking fonts, holders, holograms to 99% accuracy is a relatively easy game, when the payoff might be so big. If I can think of that game, and have little guile in me, I'm sure some of the slimy fakers are doing it.
scary, I can't even tell its a fake. So glad I only buy from members here and from other respected sources so that if there is a problem, I won't have a problem getting my money back
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Bottom line question: Will anything bad happen to the seller? Having their eBay account suspended, eating a $20 chargeback fee, or UN sanctions don't count. I'm talking mail fraud, accessory to counterfeiting, being sued by PCGS, something that's going to cost him dearly. If not, then why should he stop?
I would never be able to tell a fake label from a real one... Can't you check the number on the pcgs site or do they just use a real one on a fake holder?
<< <i>I would never be able to tell a fake label from a real one... Can't you check the number on the pcgs site or do they just use a real one on a fake holder? >>
The auction photo appears to be a genuine coin with a legit serial number.
The coin that the OP received appears to be a fake in a fake slab with the same, legit serial number.
Knowing and trusting the source for your coins has become increasingly important.
The seller has already committed himself to the "bait and switch" con by the fact that the images used in the ebay listing aren't even close to the coin delivered. I vote that the seller knew exactly what the intent was. The seller even hinted at this with their listing comment that a previous buyer reneged on payment from a prior listing. The seller could try to claim ignorance, but in effect by listing the item, they agreed to eBay terms that guarantee the item is genuine. In this case, ignorance is not a defense.
i would like to see some images of the reverse of that slab...particularly the label. i have no doubt it's fake, but i am curious to see if i can spot more diagnostics on the reverse and notice what they got right too. a photo of the side of the slab would be great too. thanks! nice catch...i hope you get your money and this seller off ebay while you're at it.
ps: notice the hole isn't present on the obverse of the label of the slab. i am pretty sure this is a diagnostic for fake slabs. i have yet to see on that does have it.
I think some responders to this post are being confused by reading too quickly. The OP shows both a real slab and the fake. The pics of the fake aren't real good so it is hard to evaluate it. The clearest problem is the spacing of the letters in the grade.
As for diagnostics for fake slabs, that might be hard because different counterfeiters would make different slabs. In my mind the key is to look at is the coin. If the coin doesn't look to fit the grade, be suspicious. Be especially careful with items that would likely be worth counterfeiting--expensive coins, especially in lower grade so that they can be worn and toned to cover up imperfections. Look carefully at the label. Look at auction results for the same serial number coin (good research to do anyway when buying an expensive coin) and if you can't find the same coin sold previously, look for the same year/mm coin in similar grade to compare the coin you are considering. If you have a good eye for detail, you've become a good grader, and can pick up on varieties and errors quickly, you should have no problem. If you rely on others to help you grade, evaluate, and cherrypick coins, then you should probably be much more careful and get 3rd party opinions before buying expensive coins.
Do as the OP did, pay with paypal to ensure you are protected if you have any concerns. (There are lots of dealers that I would trust 100%, but an unknown guy I would pay with paypal).
It looks like all the feedbacks on the "private" auctions are with sellers in China. Even the ebayers who he's traded with located in the "United States" have a substantial amount of trades themselves with "China". Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to manufacture these ebay id's.
I saw a fake 1886-O $1 in a "PCGS MS-64" holder at the Willamette Coin Club-PNNA show in Portland in Late October. The coin was a modern struck counterfeit with the wrong silvery look. And it had an Oval-O mintmark to boot. I didn't like sharing this view with the owners and hoped they could get their money back. I believe they bought the coin North of Seattle.
I think that a very hard line needs to be taken on sellers that pull this fraud! The proliferation of fake slabs and coins has the POTENTIAL TO RUIN this hobby!!!! If serious collectors are worrying then imagine what the real novice is going to feel....
Stick it to these sellers !!!!! Nail them!!!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i> Probably just going to have to return it to get my refund and the seller will rip someother person off.... >>
In the case of a counterfiet coin, eBay usually refunds the money and DOES NOT require you to return the coin. Therefore the coin will not likely victimize anyone else. If eBay doesn't specifically tell you to return it, you don't have to. I wouldn't.
“I don't want to run your life, I don't know how to run your life, and the Constitution doesn't give me the authority to run your life.” -Ron Paul
I would say it's your responsibility to put an end to that coin being relisted. You need to take whatever measurements possible to get this into the open and help put a stop to this. That was an expensive bid, someone needs to be held responsible for this kind of dishonesty.
This kind of crap leaves a bad taste in my mouth and can really hurt the hobby and the future of coin collecting.
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
At 7 Grand ,99% of people buying at that price will spot it. Hundred or two maybe not. Seller now has a big fat neg,which will alert the other 1%,if he survives not being booted or imprisoned
Put the slab in the back of a box full of legit slabs so no casual window shopper will scan it. Don't let known dealers or experts look at that special box. Crude fakes will pass to the greedy and to the uninformed crowd that hasn't even heard about fake slabs. Perhaps one of those uninformed folks will read this thread and be a bit more careful buying slabbed coins, and that would be a good thing. >>
Maybe I'm not understanding your reply. Are you saying joelbb21 should unload this on an unsuspecting newbie. How does that help this hobby? What would be better is showcase this at a show as a fake slab with any and all diagnostics to prove it. That way he can education those new to the hobby, not burn them.
This is a perfect example of why we need a buying and selling network setup all across the country. All this stuff gets checked out before money changes hands. You want my coins, you can pick them up at a trusted dealer in your area. Have something for sale, you will need to drop it off and have it authenticated at such facility before it's even considered for shipment.
How much more would folks pay for such a service?
Gee, why doesn't our host or Heritage where all these authenticators work provide such a service?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>It looks like all the feedbacks on the "private" auctions are with sellers in China. Even the ebayers who he's traded with located in the "United States" have a substantial amount of trades themselves with "China". Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to manufacture these ebay id's. >>
This is a big red flag on this auction. You couldn't tell by the pics since it used pics of a real slab and coin but looking through the feedbacks makes it look suspicious. When bidding on anything in this price range it pays to look close at the sellers feedback, what they were selling and to who they were selling and how long they were selling and feedbacks from suspicious buyers/sellers and "private" are a clue that it's fabricated feedback. Ignore the number being ok, they can fabricate a few 100 feedbacks within their network. It's likely that many of those feedbacks are similar sellers or other IDs set up by the same seller or group of sellers. If one gets NARU they can move to the next ID. Someone might say it's ok to take the risk because paypal will refund it but to me it's best to avoid the hassle.
after reviewing the pics you can tell the difference in slabs by how close the S6 are in "ms65". my question is should law enforcement (FBI) be contacted. 3rd party grading, especially pcgs and ngc, give this hobby what it lacked 35 years ago when i was a kid. it will get ruined if you have to worry about getting scammed. most of my big purchases are heritage and david lawrence and i dont think i have anything to worry about there but this was clever and for every one that gets discovered at least 2 or more dont.
Part of the MO for these scams is that even if 90% of buyers send it back and get a refund there's little incentive for ebay or paypal to fix it because they probably held the funds so even refunding 90% of the deals may cost them nothing. Also the seller may willingly refund the 90% of the buyers that noticed and returned the fakes. Still on the 10% that the buyers don't notice the crooks still make a lot, on $7000 coins if 10% don't get returned they still averaged $700 per sale. When they're selling a $3 fake in a $2 slab they're still making a killing.
What needs to happen is the law needs to be enforced. If the only penalty is that they have to return the loot on 90% of them that get noticed the incentive is to do more scams to make more money. The law needs to be enforced with real penalties.
Local police and postal authorities are overwhelmed with scams. And unless something has occurred to dozens of people or is in the $$millions, they really don't want to bother. It takes a lot more than a one instance of fraud to get them involved. It's one reason why I just stopped dealing with Ebay. They don't even care when irrefutable evidence is reported to them.
<< <i>Another fake coin? Why are you buying on ebay?
Doug >>
perhaps because only one coin on ebay in 1,000,000 plus is fake, less than those sold on other venues without ovesight?
edit to add: and perhaps because on ebay you can get your money back, unlike most places off ebay. >>
My guess is more like one in fifty for some kinds of coins. Sure if a person counts all the rolls of wheat cents and all the low value proof sets, the percentage is low. If one goes into any coin of value, the percentage creeps up.
Personally, there is now a long list of coin types that I won't buy on Ebay from unknown sellers. I would suggest others do the same. If a novice asks if Ebay is safe, the short and correct answer is NO. Too many fakes. This poster of this thread has posted two fake slabs in a short time period. For that hyperbole of 1-in-a-million to be close to true would mean that this poor soul won two lotteries in reverse, a lottery with a million squared odds.
As far as 90% returning the fakes, I think the odds are about opposite. My guess is less than 10% are returning their fakes. The other 90% either sit on them only to have their heirs deal with the problem, or try to flip them via other venues such as local shows or club auctions. That is what makes the vast (and it is vast) Ebay fake problem so scary. The fakes are finding their way into all other venues. Some resellers know what they have, and don't care, many more don't know what they have and many a collection is being stuffed full of fake slabs and other fakes.
Of course known Ebay sellers will paint a rosy picture, but it is not accurate. There are literally tons of fakes being sold on Ebay. For every report on this forum there are likely 100 other fakes being passed without notice. High quality fake slabs can not be conclusively be detected from an image.
Red Tiger, I challenge you to produce auctions of fakes to support your numbers. I sell moderns from presidential dollars that don't even bring the grading fees up to low pop Platinum proofs that sell for thousands and have yet to see a single fake in my area of selling.
We have hundreds of members here scouring ebay and posting all the fakes they can find and there just aren't that many treads. Remember, real coins don't get a thread, only fake ones do.
The coin buyers you deal with must be much more oblivious that the ones I sell to who examine their coins with glasses and references and will return a coin for a chipped holder, a spot that didn't show in the picture, or anything that looks unusual to them. Perhaps modern collectors are just more astute? I don't think so.
I don't know why so many people want to throw a cloak of gloom over the hobby, assuming all the buyers are fools and need to be protected.
I think the tipping point where the percentage of fakes undermines the hobby is fairly low. If enough of them leak out of ebay it will be a serious problem. Ironically part of the problem is the "anonymity" of ebay, trading through "handles" with really not enough information. It's ok when buying troll dolls or video games but not high end goods. I have a lot more confidence bidding when the seller clearly operates a B&M business. The question is, does any of this chinese junk ever leak into Heritage or Teletrade?
Comments
1. Education for spotting fake pcgs holders
2. Stay away from this seller
3. The fact that the only way for me to get a refund is to send back the coin/slab which will allow the seller to resell the coin and rip somebody else off.
Im sure there are more...
ya 1 second looking at that coin is all it would take
just a horrible fake, glad most of them still suck at it
.
<< <i>Looks real to me....what's not Kosher? >>
Look how beefy the date is on the coin received.
The sellers ebay image is the real coin ? The one in hand is obviously fake.
Check out the spacing on the 'PCGS MS65' between the ebay pics and the in hand pics.
after looking at that seller account, you probably figured it was going to end bad
private feedback, low feedback=high risk
.
If is important you get 3rd party proof that the slab is fake. A letter from an recognized expert would be good to. The drones at eBay know nothing about coins so from their viewpoint it is just your word against his.
--Jerry
The spacing between the letters of pcgs and MS65 as well as the font is different.
<< <i>The points are;
1. Education for spotting fake pcgs holders
2. Stay away from this seller
3. The fact that the only way for me to get a refund is to send back the coin/slab which will allow the seller to resell the coin and rip somebody else off.
Im sure there are more... >>
I'm sure even that bad of a fake would move real fast at a small show if offered at the right price. Put the slab in the back of a box full of legit slabs so no casual window shopper will scan it. Don't let known dealers or experts look at that special box. Crude fakes will pass to the greedy and to the uninformed crowd that hasn't even heard about fake slabs. Perhaps one of those uninformed folks will read this thread and be a bit more careful buying slabbed coins, and that would be a good thing.
Don't be fooled that most fakes are of low quality. There are many levels of fakes, and the best fakes take a top expert to spot. For better date MS65 coins, an extremely profitable game might be to buy real coin 63's and put them in fake 65 holders. Faking fonts, holders, holograms to 99% accuracy is a relatively easy game, when the payoff might be so big. If I can think of that game, and have little guile in me, I'm sure some of the slimy fakers are doing it.
I won't be surprised if someone on the forum can find an auction where the seller lifted the pics he used.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Maybe a postal inspector would like to hand deliver the coin.....and apply some bracelets on the same trip?
Can't you check the number on the pcgs site or do they just use a real one on a fake holder?
<< <i>I would never be able to tell a fake label from a real one...
Can't you check the number on the pcgs site or do they just use a real one on a fake holder? >>
The auction photo appears to be a genuine coin with a legit serial number.
The coin that the OP received appears to be a fake in a fake slab with the same, legit serial number.
Knowing and trusting the source for your coins has become increasingly important.
<< <i>That coin would have been more convincing at a lower grade.
I won't be surprised if someone on the forum can find an auction where the seller lifted the pics he used. >>
Looked up the cert number. No auctions cited for this coin.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
ps: notice the hole isn't present on the obverse of the label of the slab. i am pretty sure this is a diagnostic for fake slabs. i have yet to see on that does have it.
As for diagnostics for fake slabs, that might be hard because different counterfeiters would make different slabs. In my mind the key is to look at is the coin. If the coin doesn't look to fit the grade, be suspicious. Be especially careful with items that would likely be worth counterfeiting--expensive coins, especially in lower grade so that they can be worn and toned to cover up imperfections. Look carefully at the label. Look at auction results for the same serial number coin (good research to do anyway when buying an expensive coin) and if you can't find the same coin sold previously, look for the same year/mm coin in similar grade to compare the coin you are considering. If you have a good eye for detail, you've become a good grader, and can pick up on varieties and errors quickly, you should have no problem. If you rely on others to help you grade, evaluate, and cherrypick coins, then you should probably be much more careful and get 3rd party opinions before buying expensive coins.
Do as the OP did, pay with paypal to ensure you are protected if you have any concerns. (There are lots of dealers that I would trust 100%, but an unknown guy I would pay with paypal).
--Jerry
Even the ebayers who he's traded with located in the "United States" have a substantial amount of trades themselves with "China".
Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to manufacture these ebay id's.
The proliferation of fake slabs and coins has the POTENTIAL TO RUIN this hobby!!!!
If serious collectors are worrying then imagine what the real novice is going to feel....
Stick it to these sellers !!!!! Nail them!!!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Link
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
<< <i>
Probably just going to have to return it to get my refund and the seller will rip someother person off....
>>
In the case of a counterfiet coin, eBay usually refunds the money and DOES NOT require you to return the coin.
Therefore the coin will not likely victimize anyone else.
If eBay doesn't specifically tell you to return it, you don't have to. I wouldn't.
This kind of crap leaves a bad taste in my mouth and can really hurt the hobby and the future of coin collecting.
<< <i>If the slab is fake, PCGS will not stand behind that will they? >>
Of course PCGS won't stand behind someone elses forgery! Are you kidding us?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
>>
Put the slab in the back of a box full of legit slabs so no casual window shopper will scan it. Don't let known dealers or experts look at that special box. Crude fakes will pass to the greedy and to the uninformed crowd that hasn't even heard about fake slabs. Perhaps one of those uninformed folks will read this thread and be a bit more careful buying slabbed coins, and that would be a good thing. >>
Maybe I'm not understanding your reply. Are you saying joelbb21 should unload this on an unsuspecting newbie. How does that help this hobby? What would be better is showcase this at a show as a fake slab with any and all diagnostics to prove it. That way he can education those new to the hobby, not burn them.
two cents.
How much more would folks pay for such a service?
Gee, why doesn't our host or Heritage where all these authenticators work provide such a service?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>It looks like all the feedbacks on the "private" auctions are with sellers in China. Even the ebayers who he's traded with located in the "United States" have a substantial amount of trades themselves with "China". Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to manufacture these ebay id's. >>
This is a big red flag on this auction.
You couldn't tell by the pics since it used pics of a real slab and coin but looking through the feedbacks makes it look suspicious.
When bidding on anything in this price range it pays to look close at the sellers feedback, what they were selling and to who they were selling and how long they were selling and feedbacks from suspicious buyers/sellers and "private" are a clue that it's fabricated feedback. Ignore the number being ok, they can fabricate a few 100 feedbacks within their network. It's likely that many of those feedbacks are similar sellers or other IDs set up by the same seller or group of sellers. If one gets NARU they can move to the next ID.
Someone might say it's ok to take the risk because paypal will refund it but to me it's best to avoid the hassle.
<< <i> The PCGS cert verification now includes this eBay transaction, adding to its veracity. >>
That's scary because it makes it look like "a sale of the real coin".
That's not "seasoned" enough for me.
Doug
What needs to happen is the law needs to be enforced. If the only penalty is that they have to return the loot on 90% of them that get noticed the incentive is to do more scams to make more money. The law needs to be enforced with real penalties.
<< <i>Another fake coin? Why are you buying on ebay?
Doug >>
perhaps because only one coin on ebay in 1,000,000 plus is fake, less than those sold on other venues without ovesight?
edit to add: and perhaps because on ebay you can get your money back, unlike most places off ebay.
to bother. It takes a lot more than a one instance of fraud to get them involved. It's one reason why I just stopped dealing with Ebay. They don't even care when irrefutable
evidence is reported to them.
roadrunner
Maybe they need to declare war on China
<< <i>
<< <i>Another fake coin? Why are you buying on ebay?
Doug >>
perhaps because only one coin on ebay in 1,000,000 plus is fake, less than those sold on other venues without ovesight?
edit to add: and perhaps because on ebay you can get your money back, unlike most places off ebay. >>
My guess is more like one in fifty for some kinds of coins. Sure if a person counts all the rolls of wheat cents and all the low value proof sets, the percentage is low. If one goes into any coin of value, the percentage creeps up.
Personally, there is now a long list of coin types that I won't buy on Ebay from unknown sellers. I would suggest others do the same. If a novice asks if Ebay is safe, the short and correct answer is NO. Too many fakes. This poster of this thread has posted two fake slabs in a short time period. For that hyperbole of 1-in-a-million to be close to true would mean that this poor soul won two lotteries in reverse, a lottery with a million squared odds.
As far as 90% returning the fakes, I think the odds are about opposite. My guess is less than 10% are returning their fakes. The other 90% either sit on them only to have their heirs deal with the problem, or try to flip them via other venues such as local shows or club auctions. That is what makes the vast (and it is vast) Ebay fake problem so scary. The fakes are finding their way into all other venues. Some resellers know what they have, and don't care, many more don't know what they have and many a collection is being stuffed full of fake slabs and other fakes.
Of course known Ebay sellers will paint a rosy picture, but it is not accurate. There are literally tons of fakes being sold on Ebay. For every report on this forum there are likely 100 other fakes being passed without notice. High quality fake slabs can not be conclusively be detected from an image.
I challenge you to produce auctions of fakes to support your numbers. I sell moderns from presidential dollars that don't even bring the grading fees up to low pop Platinum proofs that sell for thousands and have yet to see a single fake in my area of selling.
We have hundreds of members here scouring ebay and posting all the fakes they can find and there just aren't that many treads. Remember, real coins don't get a thread, only fake ones do.
The coin buyers you deal with must be much more oblivious that the ones I sell to who examine their coins with glasses and references and will return a coin for a chipped holder, a spot that didn't show in the picture, or anything that looks unusual to them. Perhaps modern collectors are just more astute? I don't think so.
I don't know why so many people want to throw a cloak of gloom over the hobby, assuming all the buyers are fools and need to be protected.
--Jerry
If enough of them leak out of ebay it will be a serious problem.
Ironically part of the problem is the "anonymity" of ebay, trading through "handles" with really not enough information.
It's ok when buying troll dolls or video games but not high end goods.
I have a lot more confidence bidding when the seller clearly operates a B&M business.
The question is, does any of this chinese junk ever leak into Heritage or Teletrade?