I would like to publicly ask Don Willis a question on a new charge.....

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 1:39PM

I just found out at the FUN show that we now have to pay an additional $10 to reholder on a variety submission of a coin already in a PCGS holder.

The more I thought about it the madder I got.

It doesn't seem right to pay $24 plus the $10 reholder fee when you are getting a $24 submission on a coin that you have already made money on a previous submission.

Is it just me or does this seem "not right"?

Edited to correct Mr. Willis's name. Just a typo...nothing intended.

Baley · March 7, 2011 1:52PM

they made the money on the original holder for the original submission.

but now you're asking them to work again. break the holder, verify the variety, reholder. plus the administration (receiving, processing, sending back)

do you expect them to work for free?

stman · March 7, 2011 1:57PM

Not that it matters, but did you originally submit it? Just curious.

coinsarefun · March 7, 2011 2:03PM

I don't know if this is new but I would expect that it was this way all along.
Every time I have had this done here or ATS It was always an additional charge.

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 2:03PM

>>>Not that it matters, but did you originally submit it? Just curious.<<<

Your right it doesn't matter. Some were submitted by me some were not.

I just don't think it's right.

Just out of curosity.....do they charge this extra $10 fee on a regrade?

RYK · March 7, 2011 2:04PM

You are the customer, and PCGS is selling a luxury service, not a necessity. The health and well-being of your family does not depend on the variety service, any more than it does if you decide to drive a Toyota over a Lexus. If not enough folks decide to buy the Lexus, the manufacturer will have to make fewer or otherwise make the Lexus more attractive to buy. If there are plenty of people driving Lexuses, even though you think that they are overpriced, perhaps you do not understand the market for luxury automobiles and/or you are priced out of it. Either way, you are under no obligation to use the service. There is no "individual mandate" (yet) to have varieties so labeled.

commoncents05 · March 7, 2011 2:05PM

Calling him by his name might help your case.

-Paul

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 2:06PM

No Stef, this is a new charge. I have sent a lot in previously and there was not a reholder fee.

llafoe · March 7, 2011 2:21PM

<< >>>Not that it matters, but did you originally submit it? Just curious.<<<

Your right it doesn't matter. Some were submitted by me some were not.

I just don't think it's right.

Just out of curosity.....do they charge this extra $10 fee on a regrade? >>

They don't charge any fees (only shipping) for a regrade/review.

Alltheabove76 · March 7, 2011 2:27PM

I noticed that charge too and was a little surprised. Does not seem just. But, like someone said earlier, you dont have to pay it.

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 2:31PM

>>>I noticed that charge too and was a little surprised. Does not seem just. But, like someone said earlier, you dont have to pay it<<<

Yes you do if you like varieties and want to have variety sets.

illini420 · March 7, 2011 2:35PM

<< 

<< >>>Not that it matters, but did you originally submit it? Just curious.<<<

Your right it doesn't matter. Some were submitted by me some were not.

I just don't think it's right.

Just out of curosity.....do they charge this extra $10 fee on a regrade? >>

They don't charge any fees (only shipping) for a regrade/review. >>

If you send something in for a grade review, they may not charge you, but they will definitely charge you for a regrade. I don't think they'd charge the additional $10 since they aren't reholdering, they are regrading the coin and you'd pay the normal grading fee for the level of service you want (+$24 to attribute the variety). Then on top of that you get your $8 fee and the shipping costs. I think that's how it works, but wouldn't surprise me if I missed some of the fees.

I know before it was just the $24 charge to get a variety attributed to an already holdered coin. Now it seems like the minimum charge to get a variety attributed on a coin is now $34. $24 + $10 if it's a coin previously graded by PCGS OR $24 + the normal grading fee if it's a raw coin or a regrade.

vann · March 7, 2011 2:37PM

<< 

They don't charge any fees (only shipping) for a regrade/review. >>

I think you are confusing a spot review with a regrade. A regrade costs the same amount as a standard grading fee (varies depending on the service level selected) because you are asking for the coin to be cracked out and regraded.

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 2:44PM

I know this may seem trivial to some, but on a 10 coin submission that's an extra $100 over the already $240!

That is NOT trivial to me.

Tdec1000 · March 7, 2011 2:49PM

<< I know this may seem trivial to some, but on a 10 coin submission that's an extra $100 over the already $240!

That is NOT trivial to me. >>

coinsarefun · March 7, 2011 2:52PM

<< I know this may seem trivial to some, but on a 10 coin submission that's an extra $100 over the already $240!

That is NOT trivial to me. >>

That does add up

It's like when I send in a bunch of coins to get graded along with Trueviews and 4-5 get a genuine
At $20 a pop it adds up fast for a genuine coin

19Lyds · March 7, 2011 3:34PM

<< There is no "individual mandate" (yet) to have varieties so labeled. >>

Unfortunately, without the FS number, the coin will not:

a. Fit into a pCGS registry
b. Command much of a premium especially if the new owner, intending it for his/her registry, must fork out another $58 to get that FS number on the holder? ($24+$10+$8+$16.95+ Shipping to PCGS)

This new "charge" if it is valid, is out of sync with any other type of submission.

Are "regrades" to incur an additional $10 reholdering fee since the coin is "guaranteed to not downgrade" but may upgrade AND the coin ends up in a new holder anyway?

Are coins submitted for "spot review", which may or may not require "conservation" by PCGS, to incur an additional $10 "reholder" charge?

Are coins submitted under the grade guarantee subject to the additional $10 reholder fee if, say they are submitted in an old rattler slab?

At what point will it be that PCGS will grade your coin for $30, $18, or $14 but to get it slabbed will require an additional $10? Otherwise they simply return the coin to you with their "opinion".

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 3:39PM

19lyds - exactly!! Part of the grading fee is putting it in a holder. That's already been paid for.

With this new fee there is not much of an advantage trying to find varieties already in PCGS graded holders.

illini420 · March 7, 2011 3:58PM

The thing that bothers me most about the variety attribution fee is that in almost all cases I already have attributed the variety before sending it to PCGS!! All PCGS is doing is checking my work and confirming my variety attribution is correct!!! There should be a seperate lower fee if the submitter already attributes the coin correctly and just wants it on the label for their set. Surely it is easier and faster for a grader to attribute a coin when the work has been done correctly ahead of time, right??? Of course, if the submitter gets the attribution wrong or doesn't know the correct attribution in the first place, the full variety attribution fee should apply.

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2011 4:07PM

>>>The thing that bothers me most about the variety attribution fee is that in almost all cases I already have attributed the variety before sending it to PCGS!! All PCGS is doing is checking my work and confirming my variety attribution is correct!!! There should be a seperate lower fee if the submitter already attributes the coin correctly and just wants it on the label for their set. Surely it is easier and faster for a grader to attribute a coin when the work has been done correctly ahead of time, right??? Of course, if the submitter gets the attribution wrong or doesn't know the correct attribution in the first place, the full variety attribution fee should apply.<<<

DonWillis · March 7, 2011 4:10PM

That's a fair question with an easy answer. If you study the submission form the answer is fairly clear.

PCGS offers three primary submissions: Grading, Regrading and Crossover. Reholder is an additional submission type and is $10 or $20 depending upon the value of the coin.

We also offer "Additional Services" such as Variety Attribution and First Strike. (That's section C on your submission form.)

So that's exactly what Variety Attribution is - an additional service. That means in addition to one of the primary services.

You are complaining that you have to pay for reholdering. What you are really saying is that the Variety Service should include reholdering. Since reholdering already is a service costing $10 ( or $20) then you are saying that the Variety Attribution Service should cost $14 (or $4).

The argument that we made money on grading the coin already is naive and totally illogical. PCGS provides a range of services. Each time a coin is submitted we provide the service(s) requested. We wouldn't be in business long if we didn't charge for those services.

Tdec1000 · March 7, 2011 4:10PM

<< >>>The thing that bothers me most about the variety attribution fee is that in almost all cases I already have attributed the variety before sending it to PCGS!! All PCGS is doing is checking my work and confirming my variety attribution is correct!!! There should be a seperate lower fee if the submitter already attributes the coin correctly and just wants it on the label for their set. Surely it is easier and faster for a grader to attribute a coin when the work has been done correctly ahead of time, right??? Of course, if the submitter gets the attribution wrong or doesn't know the correct attribution in the first place, the full variety attribution fee should apply.<<<

>>

I agree with both of you....this is just another way that they bilk us for more $$$$$

I really don't think I will be renewing my membership anytime soon especially with the crazy CC specials they have now..... I liked the old way they did things.

RedHerring · March 7, 2011 4:15PM

<< Is it just me or does this seem "not right"? >>

It's just you. You are paying $24 for attribution and $10 for a re-holder. I wouldn't expect it be any other way and am surprised it was different in the past (if it was).

DonWillis · March 7, 2011 4:18PM

There should be a seperate lower fee if the submitter already attributes the coin correctly

Right... Also, I'm sure there are a lot of people that believe they already know the correct grade and we just have to put it on the holder.

this is just another way that they bilk us for more $$$$$

No one has a gun to your head. And we aren't the ones bilking you. If you don't realize the value of having your coins graded by PCGS then don't do it.

ecichlid · March 7, 2011 4:31PM

I think the OP got the answer he deserved.

llafoe · March 7, 2011 10:32PM

<< 

<< 

They don't charge any fees (only shipping) for a regrade/review. >>

I think you are confusing a spot review with a regrade. A regrade costs the same amount as a standard grading fee (varies depending on the service level selected) because you are asking for the coin to be cracked out and regraded. >>

I am confused... but why beat a dead horse?

leothelyon · March 7, 2011 10:51PM

I would just add the costs (grading fees, attributions, shipping etc) into the value of the coin when it comes time to sell. Does the price guide reflect this. They reflect values that include the buyer's fee from auctions, why not grading fees. There are a ton of varieties that are valued less that $50 and perhaps required for registering them. What's the answer?

Leo

JRocco · March 7, 2011 10:53PM

This is a service provided by a company. They set a fee schedule for each service they provide.
That is the way, and is supposed to be the way, it works. They can raise their rates by 20% across the
board if they choose and you can make a choice as to whether you still want to pay for that service.

While I don't play in the registry game, if you choose to then that is your choice.
Hubcaps on a Mercedes cost more than hubcaps on a Hyundai.

leothelyon · March 7, 2011 11:35PM

<< This is a service provided by a company. They set a fee schedule for each service they provide.
That is the way, and is supposed to be the way, it works. They can raise their rates by 20% across the
board if they choose and you can make a choice as to whether you still want to pay for that service.

While I don't play in the registry game, if you choose to then that is your choice.
Hubcaps on a Mercedes cost more than hubcaps on a Hyundai. >>

But there are more Hyundai owners out there who just can't afford Mercedes hubcaps. Point is, the majority of coins, perhaps 95%
of them aren't worth having certified. With what fees most collectors are up against, it's just not feasible to spend the money.
I think if a grading service was offered at $7, one grader, stick it in a holder and ship it back, there's money to be made there. this would also be a great benefit for a lot of YN. Holders are bought in bulk, probably don't cost 69 cents a piece.

Leo

ecichlid · March 8, 2011 12:08AM

<< But there are more Hyundai owners out there who just can't afford Mercedes hubcaps. Point is, the majority of coins, perhaps 95%
of them aren't worth having certified. With what fees most collectors are up against, it's just not feasible to spend the money.
I think if a grading service was offered at $7, one grader, stick it in a holder and ship it back, there's money to be made there. this would also be a great benefit for a lot of YN. Holders are bought in bulk, probably don't cost 69 cents a piece.

Leo >>

Sounds like a huge money loser to me. Perhaps a non-profit for the benefit of YN's. You may want to start this business so that you can tell us how right your $7 price point is.

leothelyon · March 8, 2011 12:25AM

<< 

<< But there are more Hyundai owners out there who just can't afford Mercedes hubcaps. Point is, the majority of coins, perhaps 95%
of them aren't worth having certified. With what fees most collectors are up against, it's just not feasible to spend the money.
I think if a grading service was offered at $7, one grader, stick it in a holder and ship it back, there's money to be made there. this would also be a great benefit for a lot of YN. Holders are bought in bulk, probably don't cost 69 cents a piece.

Leo >>

Sounds like a huge money loser to me. Perhaps a non-profit for the benefit of YN's. You may want to start this business so that you can tell us how right your $7 price point is. >>

Why not? Just send me 1000 coins and $7 grand plus shipping both ways and for less than $2 a piece, I'll make 5 grand.

Leo

JRocco · March 8, 2011 12:31AM

<< 

<< 

<< But there are more Hyundai owners out there who just can't afford Mercedes hubcaps. Point is, the majority of coins, perhaps 95%
of them aren't worth having certified. With what fees most collectors are up against, it's just not feasible to spend the money.
I think if a grading service was offered at $7, one grader, stick it in a holder and ship it back, there's money to be made there. this would also be a great benefit for a lot of YN. Holders are bought in bulk, probably don't cost 69 cents a piece.

Leo >>

Sounds like a huge money loser to me. Perhaps a non-profit for the benefit of YN's. You may want to start this business so that you can tell us how right your $7 price point is. >>

Why not? Just send me 1000 coins and $7 grand plus shipping both ways and for less than $2 a piece, I'll make 5 grand.

Leo

>>

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing this Leo.
Advertise your service and start her up.
If you can start a competing business model you should go for it.
That siad, PCGS is already an established business and they can charge whatever
they like for their service. No one if forcing anyone to compete in the
registry game. You want to play in that schoolyard you have to pay the price
at the gate.

Coinsponge · March 8, 2011 12:32AM

While I don't see anything wrong with a reholdering fee (time and materials) I would sure welcome some relief on the First Strike label? I was noticing that it costs more than some grading fees. I usually view charges for services based on material costs or time spent and/or skill but I don't see much of those there. Mercy.

tahoe98 · March 8, 2011 12:34AM

...hey jon, how does that ol' saying go? "coin collecting, the hobby of kings" somethin' like that.

kurtdog · March 8, 2011 12:41AM

<< Holders are bought in bulk, probably don't cost 69 cents a piece.

Leo >>

Reminds me of the old story about the factory that had to close down operations because of an essential machine that broke down. The owner called in expert repair person after expert repair person, and nobody could fix the machine. Finally, along comes the last expert repair person, a little old guy, and, he opens up the machine, takes a look inside it, pulls out a little hammer from a little black bag, gently taps a component part inside the machine, and the machine starts right up! The whole job takes only 5 minutes. He hands the owner his bill for $101. The owner takes one glance at the bill, and complains: "$101! For just tapping it with a hammer?" The old guy replies, "No, $1 for tapping it with the hammer. $100 for knowing where to tap."

It's not the cost of the slab, Leo. It's the expert knowledge you're calling upon in the submission tier. You have to think of their guarantee, too. They stand behind what goes on that slab. And, they're up-front with their fees...

secondrepublic · March 8, 2011 1:00AM

It's a reasonable answer, though I query the need to call the question "naive and totally illogical."

DIMEMAN · March 8, 2011 1:04AM

Don I appreciate your reply's although I disagree and don't know why it was not done this way from the start if your thinking is such.

I completely disagree with you response comparing the fact we do the variety for you to "we could just do the grading also"! I feel grading is a lot different that saying "this date has a 6 over a 5". Look in the book. Yep, sure does and looks like this! I sure don't see why variety checking cost more than grading.

But the bottom line is like several have said "it's our choice and we don't have to play". This is correct. I like my coins in PCGS holders and I love being in the Registry. I don't have deep pockets at all. My modest collection of dimes as large as it looks to some has taken me 30-35 years to build and my whole inventory isn't worth 1 coin in a lot of the "BIG" guy sets.

So yes, I will continue to play, but all these cost are eating up thousands of dollars that could be spent on more coins.

llafoe · March 8, 2011 1:05AM

<< It's a reasonable answer, though I query the need to call the question "naive and totally illogical." >>

He transitioned from President of PCGS to forumite in his last paragraph... we just didn't see him changing the hat he was wearing.

Grimes · March 8, 2011 1:05AM

I disagree with Mr. Willis' insinuation that the request to lower fees for attributions provided by the submitter is unreasonable. There is ample precedent for this kind of pricing. For over two decades, ANACS has offered tiered pricing for variety attribution verification versus variety attribution research. Currently, the fee is $5 for verification and $10 for research. Before ANACS was taken over by the guys at ICG, ANACS was the recognized industry leader in variety attribution. And if the market leader offered tiered pricing, then it seems inappropriate to criticize someone for asking PCGS to consider the same.

Coinsponge · March 8, 2011 1:32AM

<< 19lyds - exactly!! Part of the grading fee is putting it in a holder. That's already been paid for.

With this new fee there is not much of an advantage trying to find varieties already in PCGS graded holders.

>>

Not clear if you beef is the attribution fee or the reholder fee. They could just as easily raised the price of attrubution to $34/coin without the reholder fee.

Sonorandesertrat · March 8, 2011 1:39AM

<< I disagree with Mr. Willis' insinuation that the request to lower fees for attributions provided by the submitter is unreasonable. There is ample precedent for this kind of pricing. For over two decades, ANACS has offered tiered pricing for variety attribution verification versus variety attribution research. Currently, the fee is $5 for verification and $10 for research. Before ANACS was taken over by the guys at ICG, ANACS was the recognized industry leader in variety attribution. And if the market leader offered tiered pricing, then it seems inappropriate to criticize someone for asking PCGS to consider the same. >>

I disagree. The reason why grading costs are increasing is simple. PCGS is a business, one for which services like variety attribution will not lead to significant amounts of new business. Expecting PCGS to put whatever variety a submitter suggests on one of its holders is not reasonable. When PCGS certifies and encapsulates a coin, it backs this up with a guarantee and mistakes cost PCGS money. Comparison with ANACS pricing isn't appropriate---ANACS is generally considered a distant third among TPGs in the coin marketplace (and being 'first' in variety attribution didn't change this perception). If someone doesn't like the extra fee for variety attribution, the solution is simple---put YOUR sticker with the attribution on the slab. Knowledgeable customers will recognize interesting varieties, whether they are on the certification tag or not---they are called cherrypickers. And if coins with PCGS-designated varieties are needed for registry sets, well, you decided to play that game.

DennisH · March 8, 2011 1:40AM

VAM attributions started out costing $15 with no reholder fee.

Under the current price structure (requiring a $10 reholder fee), with an Economy service tier coin it would only cost eight bucks more to also get it regraded.

DIMEMAN · March 8, 2011 1:46AM

>>>Not clear if you beef is the attribution fee or the reholder fee. They could just as easily raised the price of attrubution to $34/coin without the reholder fee. <<<

Both really. The $24 is too high and the extra $10 now makes it worse!!

Coinsponge · March 8, 2011 1:57AM

I guess we are getting a new definition of "gradeflation". We may have to buy stock shares to hedge our fees.

Lakesammman · March 8, 2011 1:59AM

It's a publicly traded company in business to make money.

Frankly, I think the price is cheap for the service provided (time, materials, quality assurance, guarantee, etc).

RYK · March 8, 2011 2:01AM

It seems to me that attributing a variety likely takes more time and expertise than grading a Saint. Maybe they should charge $50/coin.

Tdec1000 · March 8, 2011 2:06AM

<< There should be a seperate lower fee if the submitter already attributes the coin correctly

Right... Also, I'm sure there are a lot of people that believe they already know the correct grade and we just have to put it on the holder.

this is just another way that they bilk us for more $$$$$

No one has a gun to your head. And we aren't the ones bilking you. If you don't realize the value of having your coins graded by PCGS then don't do it. >>

My apologies Don, I misread the OP. I thought that he said the coin was already attributed by PCGS. My mistake.

DIMEMAN · March 8, 2011 2:07AM

I can check a variety in about 1 minute........how much is that an hour......$1440.......pretty good wages!!!

Coinsponge · March 8, 2011 2:11AM

<< I can check a variety in about 1 minute........how much is that an hour......$1440.......pretty good wages!!! >>

yea, but they have to live in California.

Manorcourtman · March 8, 2011 2:15AM

<< I can check a variety in about 1 minute........how much is that an hour......$1440.......pretty good wages!!! >>

Maybe you should start DPGS (Dimeman's Prof. Grading Service)

You know.......money for nothing and yer chicks for free!

DIMEMAN · March 8, 2011 2:28AM

Trying to be serious here courtman!

I would like to publicly ask Don Willis a question on a new charge.....

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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