Utah Considers Return to Gold, Silver Coins
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<< <i>They want to make money selling metal tokens and medals. Nothing new. >>
Not what I read in the article at all...
At any rate... I can think of one question the article does not provide an answer to... would they honor the Federally Minted Gold and Silver coins based on spot or based on the "Face Value"? (no winky added)
<< <i>They want to make money selling metal tokens and medals. Nothing new. >>
Actually, what they are voting on is to 'recognize gold and silver coins issued by the federal government as legal currency in the state' as well as 'a committee to study alternative currencies for the state. It would also exempt the sale of gold from the state capital gains tax.' They would also be worth more than those 'Bernanke Bucks' currently are too
The bullion pieces are already legal tender at their face value. Nothing prevents anyone from accepting them at that or at their bullion value.
<< <i>The bullion pieces are already legal tender at their face value. Nothing prevents anyone from accepting them at that or at their bullion value. >>
Not exactly correct. The IRS has a problem with that position. Employer's gold, silver payroll standard may bring hard time The business owner has also filled a RICO lawsuit against the federal prosecutor in that case.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Do you have to pay a sales tax when you exchange currency?
<< <i>
<< <i>The bullion pieces are already legal tender at their face value. Nothing prevents anyone from accepting them at that or at their bullion value. >>
Not exactly correct. The IRS has a problem with that position. Employer's gold, silver payroll standard may bring hard time The business owner has also filled a RICO lawsuit against the federal prosecutor in that case. >>
The case you linked and what RWB wrote are not the same thing. In the IRS case, the employer was paying for labor using the bullion value of the pieces while telling his employees to declare their face value. What RWB wrote is that one can sell current bullion coinage at its bullion value or one could be incredibly foolish and use it as its face value; there was nothing about telling the recipient to declare taxes in an inconsistent manner with how the coinage was accepted.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
After reading the list of 10 states considering the same move, Indiana might be one state that could get it past the legislature.
Many years ago, they brought to a vote a bill declaring the value of PI to be 3.2 and came within one vote of passing it.
Seems like the kids were having problems with their multiplication using 3.1416.
State legislators just don't have enough to do other than raise money!
Don't jump on me for picking on Indiana. It's just the only state that ever tried to change mathmatics.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>they brought to a vote a bill declaring the value of PI to be 3.2 and came within one vote of passing it. >>
I think they "rounded" it off wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI
<< <i>At least Bernanke has enough sense to know there's WAY more money in the USA than we could back up with silver and gold!
After reading the list of 10 states considering the same move, Indiana might be one state that could get it past the legislature.
Many years ago, they brought to a vote a bill declaring the value of PI to be 3.2 and came within one vote of passing it.
Seems like the kids were having problems with their multiplication using 3.1416.
State legislators just don't have enough to do other than raise money!
Don't jump on me for picking on Indiana. It's just the only state that ever tried to change mathmatics.
JT >>
I heard it was Mississississippi, and they wanted to use 3.0.
<< <i>Many years ago, they brought to a vote a bill declaring the value of PI to be 3.2 and came within one vote of passing it.
Seems like the kids were having problems with their multiplication using 3.1416.
JT >>
That was really a US Senate bill lead by Bob Dole(R) Kansas, IIRC.
But they wanted to make Pi=3.00000 so kids could do homework easier.
A state currency, like they are going to PRINT MONEY and someone is going to recognize that for payment for a NEW CAR, House, or Gold !?!?!
Yes money back by the State of Utah.
No thanks. The U.S. dollar is the currency most used in international transactions and is one of the world's reserve currencies. Several countries use it as their official currency, in many others it is the de facto currency, and it is also used as the sole currency in some British Overseas Territories.
GO ahead trade in your Benjamin's for a Utah note.
Too funny.
<< <i>I don't understand how this is supposed to work. Would gold coins circulate at their face value or their constantly changing "intrinsic" value? >>
I believe their flustuating intrinsic value.
For all those silver and gold hoarders out there preparing for the economic collapse, exactly how are you going to use those $34 silver eagles?
Convert them to a devalued dollar before spending?
Cut them into useable bits which of course, general merchandising outfits have absolutely no way of handling? Hell some of em have no idea how to make change without the friggin computer telling em what to give back.
Covert them to some "oher" acceptable form of currency?
Exactly how will that lifesaving bullion be used in an economic collapse?
Seems to me, having each state authorize it as "legal tender", by accepting it as payment for taxes, would be the first step.
Otherwise, its just another piece of jewelry that most folks don;t have a clue as to what its value might be.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Link
What's your take....? >>
Check the comments...that's all you need to know about who this idea appeals to.
<< <i>At least Bernanke has enough sense to know there's WAY more money in the USA than we could back up with silver and gold! >>
Sense or craftiness. If they would quit printing money, this would not be as much a problem. He just doesn't want to see gold and silver shoot up like a rocket. At which point in the printing game did it become a problem?
<< <i>i just had to read long enough to find the words i knew would be there before i even opened up the link------------TEA PARTY. with that i will try to oblige our Host by obeying the rules and say simply Thank You for the link. >>
Good luck Utah legislature.
<< <i>Totally silly unnecessary legislation that will accomplish nothing, except generate publicity. Here's why it's unnecessary. It's already legal to voluntarily engage in transactions using gold or silver in every state in this country. If I want to buy something from you, and you are willing to take my gold coin (or silver) coins in exchange, then there is nothing that stops that transaction. No legislation is needed. So what does the Utah bill accomplish? Zero. >>
Really now?
I thought for sure I read in there where it would be legal to pay your "taxes" with it which in a sense, actually "monetizes" it.
There are only two certainties in this life: Taxes and Death
The latter is inescapable
The former "requires" some form of payment to the government in charge other than "promisory notes". Even though 1,000 bushels of wheat have value, you can't pay your taxes with it! Matter of fact, you can't pay your taxes with ANYTHING other than M-O-N-E-Y.
IMO, the bill elevates precious metal from a tradeable commodity to a unit of payment.
As for Utah and all the other States wishing to enact similar legislation, I can think of no better method of covering one's sovereign butt against a "federal" economic collapse than to fortify the states laws with accepting precious metal as a "legitimate" form of payment should the federal dollar become worthless.
Exactly what good would $100 million dollars worth of Federal Reserve Notes be if they were really only worth 1 ounce of gold in the "global" economy?
Has American arrogance totally dumbed all the lemmings to the point of not even being aware that things "could" change in a rather short period of time or was the collapse of the Soviet Union not proof enough? Yes, we all laughed at the Soviets since it was our patriotic duty but I don't think the Soviet people were laughing when it actually occured to them. Additionally, "Shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, local currencies were introduced in the newly independent states." - Wikipedia
No political innuendo's intended but States do have the responsibility to protect their borders and just because they've been successful under the umbrella of the Federal Government does not mean that they should ignore the warning signs. Especially since the value of the Federal Reserve Note is based upon the trust of the Federal Government. Remove that trust and regardless of whether or not it has any value, folks won't want to deal with Federal Reserve Notes as a "stable" form of monetary exchange. They'll want something more tangible.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>It looks like the Tea Party is trying to overturn Gresham's Law with a state statute. Good luck Utah legislature. >>
Except for a few publicity hounds on a political grandstand, who'd be dumb enough to actually pay taxes (or anything else) with gold coins if you could use fiat paper instead, and you had some of both?
This was NOT popular among the merchants. Took too long.
TD
I guess you just mark the coin as one ounce and such and forget putting one dollar on the coin cause the value would always change. So basically you would just be strongly introducing bullion into circulation. Is this what i'm reading? You know I will be asking for Gold and silver and not fake paper and coins if this happens.
<< <i>Back when the Krugerrand first came out, they were made legal tender at the current price of gold. You could go into a department store, buy a suit or whatever, and tender Krugerrands in payment. There was a telephone number published that the merchant could call to get the current price of gold. You would get credit for that amount per ounce, and either pay the balance in cash or get cash in change.
This was NOT popular among the merchants. Took too long.
TD >>
Utah House Passes Bill Recognizing Gold, Silver as Legal Tender
<< <i>The House voted 47-26 in favor of the legislation that would also exempt the sale of gold from the state capital gains tax and calls for a committee to study alternative currencies for the state.
The legislation now heads to the state Senate, where a vote is expected next week. >>
How about this idea: Using something as a unit of exchange makes that thing no longer a commodity. So if the claim that gold and silver is money, then it should be able to be exchanged by the State of Utah for no loss in transactions both in using it to buy something and selling something for it. The US currency would be the commodity.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
<< <i>And I thought that California was wierd.
It is. They simply do not have a monopoly on it.
<< <i>Link
What's your take....? >>
Strange
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>And I thought that California was wierd.
This chart might have something to do with what persuaded the legislators to approve the measure.
While the current fiat FED controlled monetary system has been a useful tool to create the biggest asset bubbles in history such as the stock market and housing bubbles, the all too sobering bust reminds all of us the reality of basing our prosperity based on phony valuations driven by cheap money created out of thin air which has no value, and only leaves the government deeper in perpetual debt as a result.
Try this for a dose of reality
<< <i>Try this for a dose of reality >>
Yea, Bernie Madoff had good cash flow too, that is until his ponzi scheme ran out of cash from living beyond his means and promising out more than he could pay.
It's really a stupid idea for the state of Utah to take gold and silver to pay taxes. Their approach to storing and guarding the gold is hilarious. Apparently, the legislation creates a storehouse to stockpile the metal. It then creates a new militia called the "Utah Defense Force" to be armed so that it can guard the gold in the state storehouse. That will really cost the citizens of Utah a ton of money (literally)!
<< <i> I thought for sure I read in there where it would be legal to pay your "taxes" with it which in a sense, actually "monetizes" it
It's really a stupid idea for the state of Utah to take gold and silver to pay taxes. Their approach to storing and guarding the gold is hilarious. Apparently, the legislation creates a storehouse to stockpile the metal. It then creates a new militia called the "Utah Defense Force" to be armed so that it can guard the gold in the state storehouse. That will really cost the citizens of Utah a ton of money (literally)! >>
Other than the building of the storehouse I don't really see any additional costs since the "Utah Defense Force" will more than likely be made up of folks already on the States payroll.
If it becomes too costly, there are other methods of safeguarding a precious metal store.
Besides, I don't think the program would be really that popular unless something disastrous would occur with the National Economy but if it did, then the State is legally positioned to react.
As for the lady paying her water bill with 20 Morgan dollars, it would be no different than if she were to turn them in at a bank where they only offer face value in exchange since its a City owned company as City and State are related but two completely different government entities. The City would have to enact their own processes for handling silver and gold bullion in exchange for payments.
Now, if the lady were to take the same 20 Morgans to pay her State Income Taxes, she'd get silver bullion value for the coins according to the State Law.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>We'll see how much gold they accept when it starts tanking. >>
Is this really any different than when the US Mint or any Gold Retailer adjusts their Gold Eagle prices?
The name is LEE!
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>As for the lady paying her water bill with 20 Morgan dollars, it would be no different than if she were to turn them in at a bank where they only offer face value in exchange since its a City owned company as City and State are related but two completely different government entities. The City would have to enact their own processes for handling silver and gold bullion in exchange for payments.
Now, if the lady were to take the same 20 Morgans to pay her State Income Taxes, she'd get silver bullion value for the coins according to the State Law. >>
OK, you caught me, I didn't read it.
The legislation calls for an armed militia to guard the gold and silver. You can't just choose "folks" already on the state's payroll. Somebody needs to train these people to become part of a militia. It will need to operate 24 hours per day.
I don't think the program would be really that popular unless something disastrous would occur with the National Economy but if it did, then the State is legally positioned to react.
That's why this program is so stupid. The program won't be popular, but the state will still have to incur all of the expenses for the storehouse, the militia, and for setting up the processes to accept the metals. Even if only one person pays their income tax in gold, the state needs to have a process in place to calculate the value of gold, provide appropriate receipts, and securely transport the gold to the storehouse (probably using guards). Every taxing authority will need to be changed to accommodate this ridiculous option.
I guess the state legislature doesn't understand that America is becoming a cashless society. We like to pay our bills with checks, credit cards, and electronic transactions. Utah's concept is ridiculous.
<< <i>I guess the state legislature doesn't understand that America is becoming a cashless society. We like to pay our bills with checks, credit cards, and electronic transactions. Utah's concept is ridiculous. >>
Definitely. Young folks have no concept of precious metals coins in commerce. They'd be like: "wtf?"
<< <i>[That's why this program is so stupid. The program won't be popular, but the state will still have to incur all of the expenses for the storehouse, the militia, and for setting up the processes to accept the metals. Even if only one person pays their income tax in gold, the state needs to have a process in place to calculate the value of gold, provide appropriate receipts, and securely transport the gold to the storehouse (probably using guards). Every taxing authority will need to be changed to accommodate this ridiculous option. >>
It isn't complicated at all. Gold or silver is accepted in lieu of fiat dollars at current spot prices to settle any bill. The metals are stored in a small area-safe at the state level temporarily, Brinks who has a Salt Lake location is sub-contracted to make some daily, bi-weeekly or weekly pick-up based on metal accumulation volume. Once at Brinks, the state can contract with Rust or monarch coin in Salt Lake City who can handle million dollar+ bullion purchases and settles with either broker by having money wired into the state account same day, while brinks transfers the gold and silver to the Rust holding account over at Brinks.
Tax payer pays in gold or silver = State of Utah accepts = Brinks pick-up = Rust coin and Utah state settlement = money wired to state bank account = brinks settles with Rust.
It is utterly seamless and I know because I have done it myself.
Tyler