The Elusive 1972-P DD0#4 Lincoln Cent

Harry779 · August 22, 2010 1:42AM

A roll hunting find.
The newest Die variety news issue 16 covers the 72 DDO Die#4 coins in great detail.

This one matches all the markers for the Stage E DDO #4 exactly.

Too bad about the hit near the date but cant complain really as I have been looking for one of these for years.

DIMEMAN · August 22, 2010 1:48AM

You must mean DDR since all of the close up pics are of the rev.?

Rampage · August 22, 2010 1:50AM

<< You must mean DDR since all of the close up pics are of the rev.? >>

I believe the OP is showing us the die markers on the reverse as described by the newest edition of Die Variety News, Volume 16. Very nice coin. Congratulations on the find!

Harry779 · August 22, 2010 1:51AM

no actually i do mean DDO.

the doubling on the obverse is minor and often confused with the standard master hub doubling found on most 1972 Lincolns.

its the reverse that locks in the identification.

Rampage · August 22, 2010 1:52AM

There is 8 or 9 different DDOs for the 1972 date, correct? Can you list the order of rareness and value (in your choice of ascending or descending order) ??

Harry779 · August 22, 2010 2:00AM

well......
a MS63BR DDO#4 Stage A or B i am not sure,recently sold at teletrade for $2,250.00

seems that the DDO4 is extremly hard to come by and some say sells for more than the "big one" which is DDO#1.

Some say that DDO#4 is really Top Dog.

Only 5 have been graded at NGC.
Does anyone know the PCGS POP?

Billy from Die Variety News saw the coin over at Lincoln Cent Resource forum and agrees that it is the DDO#4 Stage "E"

The Stage "E" coin is not worth as much as the Stage A and B coins.Its worth somewhere around 80 to 100.00

Stew · August 22, 2010 2:09AM

Harry779
Big Congratulations on the find

Rampage,
Thanks for the heads up about Die Variety News, Volume 16 did not know it was out

Terry

tahoe98 · August 22, 2010 2:33AM

... some info on number 4

ricko · August 22, 2010 3:04AM

Wow...back to the cent hoard.. this time with a microscope.... Cheers, RickO

ClosedLoop · August 22, 2010 3:21AM

I don't know if my eyes can take anymore.

nice find

Smittys · August 22, 2010 3:37AM

Don't get me wrong I love doubled dies, but when minor ones outshine major ones I just don't understand it.
Could the low population be due to it being a minor doubled die and overlooked by many.
JMHO

Harry779 · August 22, 2010 3:41AM

i understand your point.
seems that there are many people who want ALL the different 1972 DDO coins.
if you want them all then you have to have #4

tahoe98 · August 22, 2010 5:12AM

<< Don't get me wrong I love doubled dies, but when minor ones outshine major ones I just don't understand it.
Could the low population be due to it being a minor doubled die and overlooked by many.
JMHO >>

...i guess it's a great habit to get into and microscope ALL the 72's!

bolivarshagnasty · August 22, 2010 5:14AM

Harry, Nice find. Can you post some pics of Liberty and IGWT so that we may all learn of the doubling to look for? No rim cuds on the later die states? Shag

tahoe98 · August 22, 2010 5:26AM

<< Harry, Nice find. Can you post some pics of Liberty and IGWT so that we may all learn of the doubling to look for? No rim cuds on the later die states? Shag >>

... for you, shag

bolivarshagnasty · August 22, 2010 5:31AM

Thanks tahoe98, but I wanted to see this example without the rim cuds. Is the doubling the same on both die states? Shag

Harry779 · August 22, 2010 5:38AM

click on the jefferson nickel on the cover to download issue 16

the pictures are the same as this coin

DieVarietyNewsIssue16

BigRick · August 22, 2010 5:41AM

Are there rim cuds?

bolivarshagnasty · August 22, 2010 6:06AM

<< click on the jefferson nickel on the cover to download issue 16

the pictures are the same as this coin

DieVarietyNewsIssue16 >>

Getting " The file is damaged and cannot be repaired". Got this the other day after going directly to their site . Can you view? Shag

GrumpyEd · August 22, 2010 7:17AM

<< Are there rim cuds? >>

That's what I'm wondering about.
In looking for this variety I looked for the rim cuds and never found one.

Does anything show in that area of the obv rim near the L?

JonMN34 · August 22, 2010 7:46AM

One of the reasons that this variety is so much more expensive is the fact that the obverse die which exhibited the doubling appears to have been retired early due to the rim cuds. After the obverse die was pulled, the reverse die continued to be used, these coins are the stages C-E (Crawford) / D-F (Wexler). The main marker on the reverse is the set of die scratches in the "N" in "UNITED". The curious thing about the stages after the doubled obverse die was pulled is that there were two different obverse dies used in replacement. One of these dies (Stage C [Crawford] or D [Wexler]) does not exhibit any doubling on the obverse, while the subsequent stages all exhibit the Master Doubling (the "B" in "LIBERTY" is a convenient marker).

Jon Walker

DieVarieties · August 22, 2010 7:46AM

The Stage (E) does not have any rim cuds. The Stages (A) and (B) of this variety has the DDO Die #4. Stage (A) without the cuds and Stage (B) with the cuds.

Stage (C) the obverse was pulled and replaced with a non-DDO obverse. But the die markers on the reverse are the same.

Stage (D) the obverse was again pulled and replaced with a master die obverse. The key die markers at the letter "N" of UNITED are still on the reverse.

The latest new Stage (E), which the OP find, is the same obverse as Stage (D) but the master die doubling is much weaker due to VLDS. The reverse has the same key die markers at the letter "N" of UNITED but also are much weaker due to the VLDS.

It is believed that the reason why the Stages (A) and (B) which exhibit the DDO Die #4 is extremely scarce is due to the rim cuds which most likely was the reason why the obverse was pulled as mentioned above.

I checked and you should be able to download my latest issue of DVN #16 that is on my web site that covers this various stages in more depth and photos.

edited to add:
I have been getting quite a few messages from collectors saying they didn't know the latest issue of DVN was online and available for viewing.

I have started a folder file that will contain all the collectors that are interested in being on the list of notification. This list will have the e-mail addresses that will be sent to who wants to know the moment the latest DVN has been uploaded to my web site.

When I send out the notice I send via "Undisclosed Recipients" so this way your e-mail is kept private from others.

Some notices that I have sent came back for a particular e-mail that was no longer valid.

Therefore, if you desire to be notified by e-mail via "Undisclosed Recipients" of when the latest issue of DVN is ready on my web site, just send me a Private Message with your name and the e-mail address you want me to use in the notification message.

Thanks...

Regards,
Billy (dvn)

jessewvu · August 22, 2010 8:32AM

I don't see any doubling. O.o

bolivarshagnasty · August 22, 2010 11:11AM

Sooooo........ If stages C,D,and E do NOT have the original doubled die used on A and B, then why are we calling C,D, and E doubled die obverses????? What am I missing here? You have lost the doubled die obverse, replaced, and because of reverse die markers you are calling C,D, and E Doubled Die FS-104? That doesn't make a bit of sense to me. Can someone explain this logic? Thanks, Shag

Onedollarnohollar · August 22, 2010 11:33AM

It is a nice find....but why do most people bag on the 2009 formative cent double dies which are much more dramatic and easily seen than looking through a microscope to find die markers? Due to the fact that

the wddr-oo6 skeleton finger was only minted on one day within about a four to six hour period which would limit the total production run to the low thousands of samples released would make it just as important

and valuable a find as any double die cent ever produced. Obviously the market will take a few years to digest its importance and rarity, but it will eventually become something special and sought after by the

numismatic society. I apologize to the OP for this sidebar...not trying to hijack the thread at all. Back to the subject at hand, I would love to have this and the 1972 #1 ddo in a high ms state in my collection.

atarian · August 22, 2010 12:08PM

<< Wow...back to the cent hoard.. this time with a microscope.... Cheers, RickO >>

I got myself one earlier this year before I hit the boxes . It has paid for itself and then some with the searching and photographing of cents.

WaterSport · August 22, 2010 9:41PM

I am with Shag on this one. There is now way I would pay the money for the REV die and still claim I had a DDO #4. There are hundreds of examples of Die change-up in the minting process. The norm has been to accept the die pair marriage, or at the very least the original die either OBV or REV - Like with a 22 No D. But what is being discussed here is like saying I have an RPM, only its just the REV die used on the discovery or originally identified coin and the Obv has no RPM because its a different OBV die used with the original Rev die. That makes no sense. Searching and collecting the Rev die for the sake of collecting..no problem, But I would have a major problem with that coin designated said variety on a holder.

The matter of cuds vs. no cuds is of course different in that the die is deteriorating, but its still the same die. Historically the die markers have been the cuds. And to date, NO ONE has ever shown a picture of a NON CUD Die #4. There are also Hundreds of Cud rim 1972's that ARE NOT die #4 !!!!Thats why we collectors of 72's tend to get a little testy when the cuds are not there. Or better yet a decent close up shot of the coin. Even those slabbed do NO GOOD as the darn rims are covered up.For the record, there is also a faint die crack above the L in liberty. I would love to see a non cud example just to determine if the die crack is present through out the minting process or whether it is only at the end of the die run.

WS

Harry779 · August 22, 2010 11:39PM

I don't classify them or name them..........i just look for them

the coin should really be labeled:

1972-P with same reverse die as 1972-P DDO #4 Stage E

bolivarshagnasty · August 23, 2010 2:40AM

<< I don't classify them or name them..........i just look for them

the coin should really be labeled:

1972-P with same reverse die as 1972-P DDO #4 Stage E >>

Harry, I would agree. Hope there are no hard feelings. My intent was not to minimize your find. Only to understand why we were calling the find a Die 4. Shag

Harry779 · August 23, 2010 4:14AM

no hard feelings.

it is what it is.

it's still worth a few bucks.

DMWJR · August 23, 2010 7:11AM

I'm with Shag and WS. if it is not the same obverse, it shouldn't be called DDO #4 stage e. The reverse is stage e for that reverse die, which is a normal one.

Iampoorman2 · August 23, 2010 10:27PM

I've got a 1972 with the rim cud, and there is a little separation in IGWT, but I haven't looked at the reverse yet. Does just the DDO #4 exhibit the rim cuds?

WaterSport · August 23, 2010 10:42PM

Yes, the die marker has always been the Rim cuds, but like I said, the coin (year?) was notorious for Cud rim coins that are not a Die #4. You have to have all the diagnostics. The claim of non cud varieties makes sense, but to hear discussions and claims, I must be the only person who has yet to see a genuine Die #4 with NO rim cuds. IMHO, the best source to ID the coin is not any of the lousy pictures found in any of the ref books, but simply the description on the CONECA site.

WS

DMWJR · August 23, 2010 11:07PM

It's logical that the coin exists without the die cuds, but I haven't seen one either. My AU50 has them.

Harry779 · August 24, 2010 12:01AM

Since the coin does have the master hub doubling on the obverse and
there are different stages of doubling on many DDO coins and the same reverse die markers for DDO#4 are there and its listed as "1972 1c CDDO-004 New Stage (E)" in the latest issue of Die Variety News (with matching pictures too) and it says:
"On the just found new stage (E),the master die doubling is still present on the letters of the motto but weaker due to the much later die state"

It's easy to understand why i thought it was a great find.

DieVarieties · August 24, 2010 12:20AM

I was only attempting to illustrate the various reverse stages that initially was paired with the DDO Die #4 obverse, then the same reverse paired with a non-DDO obverse, and then the same reverse paired with another different obverse that exhibited the master die doubling.

Some like to be aware of the various stages and that was my intention of article. I apologize for the labeling in my article in DVN creating the confusion.

Billy (dvn)

Harry779 · August 24, 2010 12:39AM

No Problemo Billy

We appreciate all you do!

Harry779 · August 24, 2010 12:41AM

so.....

it is a variety? will it get a new name now?

The Elusive 1972-P DD0#4 Lincoln Cent

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