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Suggestion for PCGS graders....
DoubleEagle59
Posts: 8,377 ✭✭✭✭✭
can't PCGS supply the graders a 'poster board' of toned coins indicating what is acceptable and what is not.
With today's technology and printing capabilities, you could have a 2'x3' poster (or larger) in front of every grader's desk with about 100 pictures of all kinds of different toned coins.
It would be extremely simple to 'match' the coin in the grader's hand to that of the picture.
The picture would either be a 'natural' toned coin or one that is artificially toned coin.
I think if this was implemented, the amount of misgraded toned coins would drastically decrease.
Seems like an elementary idea, but a picture is worth a thousand words and it would lead to greater consistency.
With today's technology and printing capabilities, you could have a 2'x3' poster (or larger) in front of every grader's desk with about 100 pictures of all kinds of different toned coins.
It would be extremely simple to 'match' the coin in the grader's hand to that of the picture.
The picture would either be a 'natural' toned coin or one that is artificially toned coin.
I think if this was implemented, the amount of misgraded toned coins would drastically decrease.
Seems like an elementary idea, but a picture is worth a thousand words and it would lead to greater consistency.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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I think they should just try to figure out specific series, alloys, and denoms and see the differences in toning and go from there.
<< <i>
It would be extremely simple to 'match' the coin in the grader's hand to that of the picture.
>>
No, it wouldn't.
Another factor is most toned coins need to be tilted and rotated to be examined properly. A "board" would have limited value.
The downside is significant--if a photo of the "master" board got into the hands of the docs, it would quickly become a liability rather than an asset.
The original thesis might be deemed flawed in that it is an up or down, all or none decision. There is a large group of borderline coins that many top experts will disagree on. Some coins might break 80/20 on votes, some might be 70/30, some might go 50/50. What does a "master board" do with these, just list the odds?
<< <i>
<< <i>
It would be extremely simple to 'match' the coin in the grader's hand to that of the picture.
>>
No, it wouldn't. >>
Maybe it wouldn't be 'easy', but it sure would be 'easier' than the present system.
Ever try to match the color of your kitchen walls by memory alone, to that of the color charts at a paint store?
Sure is difficult. Almost impossible.
It would be much easier if you had a color sample of your kitchen wall to take to the paint store and match perfectly with their paint.
This is the comparison I was alluding to in my opening statement.
Why have the graders go by 'memory' what is and what isn't acceptable toning.
Instead have color charts of toned coins. One showing acceptable or natural toning and one chart showing unacceptable or artificial toning.
Seems at least like a good start to me.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Maybe it wouldn't be 'easy', but it sure would be 'easier' than the present system. >>
How do you know what the present system is?
<< <i>i feel confident that the graders have seen far more toned coins than any of us and have a far superior grasp on the various AT/NT issues. they probably wouldn't benefit much from your suggestion, they see this kind of stuff daily. >>
then how do you explain the blatant, erroneous, inconsistent results we've been witnessing, if the graders are so 'gifted' and 'skilled'?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe it wouldn't be 'easy', but it sure would be 'easier' than the present system. >>
How do you know what the present system is? >>
this is true, I don't. My error.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
mainly because they are more experienced than us and actually have the coins in their hands to inspect while what we typically have is an online picture or a biased opinion. i will use the experienced in-hand assessment as my default choice most of the time.
the same as how a pharmacist is able to spot a phony Prescription. Something about a
phony RX or a phony toning ,just rings a bell in your mind . Posting a list of acceptable
toning would just set up a target for the coin doctors to shoot for. Anyway, toning is too
subtle and variable to really pin it down to X number of acceptable examples.
Camelot
A couple years ago, toning & superb surfaces = great grades.
It really should still boil down to strike, luster & eye appeal.
I guess that till the current tone-a-phobia blows over ( & it will )
unless toners are "no brainers", it's best to just hold off submiting toners!
Study surface toning long enough & most collectors as
well as graders can differentiate between NT & AT.
It's a shame so many truly legitimate toners get the "questionable" call
but in time it'll get better.
Doctored coins are the root cause - but that's not News!
A coin that has sat in an album for years will display heaviest toning on the 3rd side.
Think about it. It's a good rule of thumb. No beef here.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Now, that's a thought, LOL!
Big difference between questionable and artifical toning.
well as graders can differentiate between NT & AT.
It's a shame so many truly legitimate toners get the "questionable" call
but in time it'll get better.
sometimes the best thing to do is just sit on the coins for awhile. "truly legitimate toners" will still be that in a few years. if they aren't, i'm sure the answer WHY will be clear.
<< <i>then how do you explain the blatant, erroneous, inconsistent results we've been witnessing, if the graders are so 'gifted' and 'skilled'?
mainly because they are more experienced than us and actually have the coins in their hands to inspect while what we typically have is an online picture or a biased opinion. i will use the experienced in-hand assessment as my default choice most of the time. >>
I suppose they could post pics here and ask for opinions. They really should do that with a submission AFTER it is graded, but BEFORE it is returned.
True, if 'study' and 'long enough' are done properly with metallurgical and chemical research included. That would be an amazing accomplishment for 'most collecters as well as graders'. Many here could get an education from reading the old threads on toning that contain a wealth of information and descriptions. Most evaluators today (perhaps not including the professionals - I would surmise they are given training in this field), rely on 'gut' reaction, not technical evaluation. The doctors are very good, and the best can fool the best evaluators. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>I don't think it's a AT/NT question, it's market acceptability issue. So much bad press has been given to toned coins PCGS is bagging anything that isn't dead nuts natural toning (and a few of those also)... >>
Yes, I totally agree.
Five years ago, toned coins were the rage. TPG's were grading almost all kinds of toned coins.
Now, toned coins are barely getting a passing grade.
Most likely, in another 5 years, things will swing back the other way.
What's sad in all of this is after a generation or two of collecting (say about 30 years), we'll look back on these crazy cycle swings of the top tier TPG's and realize how silly we were to submit ourselves to this kind of frustration and punishment.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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<< <i>I dislike the "questionable" color! Find a way to make it either AT or NT....not somewhere in the middle. >>
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Don't you realize that when we publish an opinion about a coin what we say (or can't say) is guided by legal advice.
Generally speaking, haven't you noticed that virtually no large company speaks in superlatives or absolutes. Haven't you ever wondered why?
Do you really think we don't know what an AT coin looks like?
PS - we have boxes of both NT and AT coins that our graders use as a reference.